Average valuables content in e-Waste

[niks neims]

My knowledge is based upon what I've been able to garner from industry professionals...some reliable, some not so much. As an example of not so much, see above. I put a lot more weight in 4metals experience as his shared experiences have never let me down.

For me, there's not much to it beyond recognizing different grades of material.

Hey, that is a fundamental part of this business
More importantly I am at a point that I can see very well that I should seek and listen to your (and other business-savy members) advice, I do apologize for pestering you via PM, towards that regard; perhaps you missed my message

I'm on final yield settlement terms.

It's a tough basis to get from a refinery in many cases. That given I can separate a batch into smaller discreet segments with no additional processing charges and this helps to get yields on particular types of boards. Which in turn allows purchase prices to be developed from hard data rather than blending and guessing (as I call it.)

The other benefit is that we can put a load together of varying products, and given the weight of each type we can get to within a few percent of the out turn before it is even refined.

Now that is a sweet deal that I'd love to make some day, how did you manage that?! Is that just a question of monthly volume supplied, or did you had to learn mandarin and drink a lot of Sake ? One would assume that smaller refineries in particular, rather than mega-corporations would use this angle (to offer final yield settlement terms) to appeal to potential clients...
also, both benefits that you singled out are just excellent form business perspective...

 

[niks neims]

Sampling & assay of lot sent in explained

:arrow: https://advchem.com/videos/19-videos/64-acc-incineration-process

Kurt

Great video, I wonder what their treatment and refining charges are

still, though, does "thieving rod" technology takes a sample that adequately represents whole lot?

 

[kurtak]

Sampling & assay of lot sent in explained

:arrow: https://advchem.com/videos/19-videos/64-acc-incineration-process

Kurt

Great video, I wonder what their treatment and refining charges are

still, though, does "thieving rod" technology takes a sample that adequately represents whole lot?

Per the underlined --- yes - that is why the thieving rod is designed to take material from different levels of the drum (bottom, middle, top - note the slots in the length of the rod)

Keep in mind that as much as you are worried about getting "under" payed --- they are worried about "over" paying you

Kurt

 

[4metals]

A)Are you saying you would not take an option of pay-out on final yield data after all of the refining is done? Say, they shredded, burned, refined JUST YOUR 20 ton PCB load, got 2 kg gold, 15 kg silver, few Toz of palladium and a couple of tons of copper and pay out you a % of a spot price for that amount, minus their charges? Why would you not take such a deal (heard of any refineries offering such a deal?), wouldn't it take out all of the randomness of the sample selection? Is it because you would not trust their "final" numbers and sampling process is easier for you to oversee(witness)? I'm worried that it takes a few PhD of theoretical knowledge and a few lifetimes of practice to confidently witness the treatment, sampling and assay with the limited access the refinery allows you, and even when taking separate samples for yourself and umpire, you are already limited by any shortcomings of treatment pre-sampling and everything that comes before the final samples are selected...

I would not take this option only because of the elapsed time it would take makes it difficult, to say the least, to witness. If they chose this option they would prep the material by granulating to a uniform size and proceed with the processing. This would be to accomodate their production schedule and it is what most refineries would prefer as it is un-witnessed.

B)Or are you saying that you would not trust any refiner to send them material that you are not 100% sure on composition?? Why trust their treatment and sampling process but not their recovery and refining? I mean if they are honest, they are honest...

My own personal preference has been trust and verify. In the e-scrap business you will never be able to be 100% sure of composition. So sampling, while witnessing, is the best option. If you have a representative sample procured by a method you are comfortable with, you don't have to trust their recovery and refining because their payout is based on the sample that you both have. So it comes down to assay. Any problems with recovery costs them money not you.

If it were me, an option of "final yield settlement" seems much more attractive, heck, let them smelt a dore bar, then sample & pay out on that, it should be much more easier to properly sample 100 kg of copper dore (and sample slag for traces of values) than a ton of boards.... seems to me that whole system (current business practices) is purposely designed to the advantage of the refiner, I mean you have a little leeway, a little sense of due diligence, but not really, just enough to lull your sense of awareness.... there was this saying here on who does what last ;/

What you are missing here is the fact that proper sampling involves making that ton of boards into the 100 kg of copper doré. When I did circuit boards I did the granulation and incineration and melted into copper based bullion in house so all I had to do was sample the copper bars that I shipped. I never received more than a few thousand pounds of boards at a time as that was far from my niche as a refiner. We did not have the cash or the desire to invest in stream sampling required for larger lots to do it properly so when the odd lot came in that was large enough to need stream sampling I packed my suitcase.

I am not trying to say that you will not get a reasonable settlement by shipping without witnessing and being paid on out-turn. What I am saying is the analytical chemist in me wants to see a good representative sample. We have members here, Jon (anachronism) comes to mind, who say they do settle on turn out. And apparently that works for him. But he has, as his posts point out, a vast knowledge of e-scrap and he likely can segregate his material so the turn out payment is acceptable based on his knowledge of what each load contains (from history) vs actual representation at the refinery. I, on the other hand don't know a Nintendo board from a high end telecom board so my segregation skills would be limited. So for guys like me, which I believe vastly outnumber guys like Jon, refineries need to allow for proper sampling. For guys like me, with limited skills in the value of different circuitry, an unscrupulous refiner would see from what I shipped in as a lot, that my separation skills are limited and if I didn't witness, they could have their way with a settlement.

 

[4metals]

4metals wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:34 pm
Before the material is put into a ball mill, check to see that there are only balls in the mill. Have them install the dump grate and spin the mill to make sure no left over material is in the mill. Add your material to the mill and let it crush for the required time, usually 1 hour.
_________________________________________
Snoman wrote: Why is that?
Is there something that can be added that's going to throw off your sampling of the fines later?
And I know that this was not necessarily in reference to e-scrap.

When I go to witness a lot being sampled I try not to leave anything to chance. Putting material into a dirty ball mill indicates to me sloppy work. That residue in the mill belongs to the lot processed before mine. If they don't clean the mill before you get there, then what are the chances they will clean the mill when dumping your lot? So seeing the mill clean before is just an indication to me that the processing is coughing up all that was contained. I also look inside a mill after it is dumped because you can tell by looking at the balls if the load has fully dumped. The weight going into the mill should not grow or diminish from the milling process.

I have see so many dishonest tricks played with sampling that I learned to be thorough. I knew of a refiner who always screened a portion of the sample to a finer mesh as a finer mesh yields a better assay. and he would always have his stack of screens for the RoTap all prepared and taped so no dust would escape. Which in itself is a red flag because if you have ever been in a sweeps plant there is dust accumulating everywhere. But what he did was add about 10-20% no yield powder to the screen before you got there and when your sample was screened into the receiver tray it was diluted. Lowering your assay and essentially stealing from your entire lot by messing with the sample. I have seen the same trick with small sample vee blenders having dirt inside to cut the sample in the refiners favor. So I always check the screens and vee blenders before my sample goes in. It's just a habit but I have seen a lot of tricks in my day.

I sleep better when I know that a refiner is thorough and he has passed all of my little inspections. And when I leave a refinery with my samples I need to go back to the hotel and shower and change my clothes. I never said properly witnessing a sampling operation should be done in a white shirt and tie!

 

[snoman701]

I knew of a refiner who always screened a portion of the sample to a finer mesh as a finer mesh yields a better assay. and he would always have his stack of screens for the RoTap all prepared and taped so no dust would escape. Which in itself is a red flag because if you have ever been in a sweeps plant there is dust accumulating everywhere. But what he did was add about 10-20% no yield powder to the screen before you got there and when your sample was screened into the receiver tray it was diluted. Lowering your assay and essentially stealing from your entire lot by messing with the sample. I have seen the same trick with small sample vee blenders having dirt inside to cut the sample in the refiners favor. So I always check the screens and vee blenders before my sample goes in. It's just a habit but I have seen a lot of tricks in my day.

So no mass balance to say 10 lbs of sweeps went in, 5 pounds made it through 100 mesh, 4 is on under 60 and 3 is under 40...wait a sec, we have 12 lbs coming out but only 10 going in?

I guess a better question for you is this...when you come across these shenanigans, do you simply politely walk away after collecting your material, do you call them on it, or do you take your lump (assuming it's not too expensive) and just know that you won't do business with them again?

 

[anachronism]

Now that is a sweet deal that I'd love to make some day, how did you manage that?! Is that just a question of monthly volume supplied, or did you had to learn mandarin and drink a lot of Sake ? One would assume that smaller refineries in particular, rather than mega-corporations would use this angle (to offer final yield settlement terms) to appeal to potential clients...
also, both benefits that you singled out are just excellent form business perspective...

It took a lot of work Nik. Where you're slightly off base is that this is one of the larger refineries ans I am extremely fortunate to be in this position with them. It's taken time. The harsh reality of the situation is that whether we like it or not, nobody gets the best deals sending in a couple of tonnes per month of 60-120ppm material.

That's not being holier than thou - its honestly just commercial reality. Nobody can get the best rates without being able to commit to deliverables.

 

[snoman701]

My knowledge is based upon what I've been able to garner from industry professionals...some reliable, some not so much. As an example of not so much, see above. I put a lot more weight in 4metals experience as his shared experiences have never let me down.

For me, there's not much to it beyond recognizing different grades of material.

Hey, that is a fundamental part of this business
More importantly I am at a point that I can see very well that I should seek and listen to your (and other business-savy members) advice, I do apologize for pestering you via PM, towards that regard; perhaps you missed my message

Nah, I got your message, I just didn't have much to say...and it came at a pretty busy time.

I'm not someone to envy with business, I'm still young in the field and making my share of mistakes.

But the sort isn't about you setting up a sort that has anything based upon actual values in boards...you are just sorting based upon how your buyer sorts....and you only have to get close. If you send in 100 lbs of telecom, 50 lbs of mid grade and 50 lbs of power board, you don't want them to be separating power board from telecom. You want to be putting your high grade board and anything in the mid grade that you think could go telecom in one lot. Then your mid grade lot with anything in power that you can upgrade by pulling off transformers or heavy crap. Then your power grade. [this advice is only good for the board seller, not the board refiner]

There's a saying amongst scrap yard owners...your buyer will always look for a reason to downgrade your lot, but rarely offer you an upgrade.

But there are operators that will upgrade your material...those are the guys that can offer the most in terms of education, and seem to understand that their success is correlated with your own.

In the states, I've found that to be the case with Mario at Cash for Computer Scrap. He's a good guy.

 

[4metals]

So no mass balance to say 10 lbs of sweeps went in, 5 pounds made it through 100 mesh, 4 is on under 60 and 3 is under 40...wait a sec, we have 12 lbs coming out but only 10 going in?

It doesn't work that way. Once a refiner has drums of blended sweeps he uses a thief sampler to take samples from all layers of every drum. Then that is mixed well and a portion of that is sieved to get to whatever mesh they prefer, usually -80. Everything that didn't pass to -80 is milled in a disc mill to get as much of the material to -80 as possible. So everything goes to -80 and what doesn't is melted and assayed because it assumed to be a metallic and of potential value. The material that has been screened is divided up into individual samples. If that small sample was cut by a few percent, that refiners gain is multiplied by the weight of the entire job that sample represents.

And I did catch the guy with the taped screens. They had a name on some masking tape on one of the screens and he claimed he screwed up and picked a used set of screens. (Likely a built in excuse if caught.) I have never had either the taped screens or the vee blender with powder in it ever be successful while I was witnessing.

I would never send to one of those refiners without witnessing though, for all of the reasons I've been talking about.

 

[Shark]

Not to nose in to much, but what are some pointers in choosing an honest refiner. Some of the things that shows the refiner is being honest in the earlier negations of a business proposition. While I have backed away from a large part of the escrap materials, I am becoming more interested in collecting it and sending to a refiner.

 

[markscomp]

would like to start by saying that I wish this info had been posted years ago. There is some great stuff going on here - I like reading about the other stuff, but this is some good info

I read about the -100 mesh and the -80 mesh
I had some samples in December that were the -100 mesh and had glass tube pin samples from the poured bars of +100 mesh or oversized material and could not get a lab assay from the US partial refiner
we are still working out detail

last month I had another company run a batch of material
they screened material to -35 mesh and created the fines
Prior to the melting process - they performed a copper wash on the furnace
the +35 mesh material was poured into bars and samples of the pour were pulled after stirring and during the dump process
the material hit a chunk of wood in a water bucket and produced flake samples

what is some of the concerns with the 35 mesh and the flakes in and of itself and which procedure is better for the board hoarders out there
I will try to attach some pics of the samples

is it a simple time concern - does it make a different out come?
the weight being processed is one of my biggest concerns, along with board quality - we try to remove all steel and oversized materials as much as possible

 

[anachronism]

Not to nose in to much, but what are some pointers in choosing an honest refiner. Some of the things that shows the refiner is being honest in the earlier negations of a business proposition. While I have backed away from a large part of the escrap materials, I am becoming more interested in collecting it and sending to a refiner.

I don't think any refiner is completely honest. That given if someone is so worried about getting 100% of the value of their material then I think they are being unrealistic.

Commercially you deal with it and move on, whilst working within ones own data and returns. That's life. Speaking personally everyone has to make money and those that can't accept that will forever be bitter twisted, and never get on in life. 8) 8)

I know that's not you Shark, I just thought I would put it out there.

Jon

 

[Shark]

Not to nose in to much, but what are some pointers in choosing an honest refiner. Some of the things that shows the refiner is being honest in the earlier negations of a business proposition. While I have backed away from a large part of the escrap materials, I am becoming more interested in collecting it and sending to a refiner.

I don't think any refiner is completely honest. That given if someone is so worried about getting 100% of the value of their material then I think they are being unrealistic.

Commercially you deal with it and move on, whilst working within ones own data and returns. That's life. Speaking personally everyone has to make money and those that can't accept that will forever be bitter twisted, and never get on in life. 8) 8)

I know that's not you Shark, I just thought I would put it out there.

Jon

I agree with everyone making money, that is just the way it goes, and I don't have a problem with that. In fact I think it is good for business when your working with the more honest people. If everyone in the chain is making good and are happy, that chain is harder to break. As for how much I expect from say, one ton of small socket mother boards, I honestly have no idea simply because I have never worked with that amount before. Now that I have access to them in quantity the interest is there, but mainly as material to move on up the food chain. I have no interest in processing boards of any kind in large quantities as it would be to much for me and keep up the materials I am working with now. To sort, maybe clean some base metals from them and concentrate them into more profitable bulk lots wouldn't be so bad.

 

[markscomp]

is there really a big difference in the mesh size down for fines and bullion - got results back from basic assay at a us refiner / sampler and sender ……...

and why not just melt all together into a big slug? (bullion block) and take samples from that?

why must the ball mill and fines and oversized be separated if a fire assay is needed anyhow to get true results?

it would save the cost of time on the lab performing the assay

it would save the cost of having two independent samples done --- fines and powders

does anyone have experience here? I am probably an idiot and would like to or should have started with that line.
Mark