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[lazersteve]

You are over complicating the problem.

If you want 5 times as much, just multiple the amount of all ingredients by 5, all your other calculations are frivolous and not required.

Simply stated the reaction requires two moles of sodium nitrate to and 1 mole of sulfuric acid to produce 2 moles of nitric acid (126g). You'll need 100 mL of 100C water to dissolve the required 2 moles of sodium nitrate for the reaction.

Steve

 

[viacin]

Simply stated the reaction requires two moles of sodium nitrate to and 1 mole of sulfuric acid to produce 2 moles of nitric acid (126g). You'll need 100 mL of 100C water to dissolve the required 2 moles of sodium nitrate for the reaction.

aah, perfectly stated. Guess I calculate too much, lol. Einstein once said "everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." Good advice, but anyway, thank you Steve. I appreciate your help.

 

[viacin]

To estimate the percent concentration divide the calculated theoretical weight of nitric produced by the total weight of the final solution.

How do you know the calculated theoretical weight of nitric produced in a given solution to begin with? I can figure with the moles easily thanks to your example, but if I have a solution sitting in front of me, how could I figure the weight of nitric in it to start the calculations? I figured out that HNO3 is 1.42g/ml density at 100%, but that doesn't help much if the percentage is unknown. I know I could weight the solution and use specific gravity, but I don't have a scale large enough and was hoping that there was a way to figure the theoretical percentage mathmaticaly.

 

[Noxx]

You can find out with the calculation of Mols.
For example, you made Nitric acid with 202 grams of KNO3 (2 mols) and Sulfuric acid in excess.

Nitric acid is made with the following formula:

2 KNO3 + H2SO4 = K2SO4 + 2 HNO3

2 mols of KNO3 gives 2 mols of HNO3 (nitric acid)

So if you started with 202 grams of KNO3, you would have:

202g/101g (molar mass of KNO3) = 2 mols.

Then 2mols * 63g (molar mass of HNO3) = 126 grams of theoretical pure nitric acid.

 

[Noxx]

You can find out with the calculation of Mols.
For example, you made Nitric acid with 202 grams of KNO3 (2 mols) and Sulfuric acid in excess.

Nitric acid is made with the following formula:

2 KNO3 + H2SO4 = K2SO4 + 2 HNO3

2 mols of KNO3 gives 2 mols of HNO3 (nitric acid)

So if you started with 202 grams of KNO3, you would have:

202g/101g (molar mass of KNO3) = 2 mols.

Then 2mols * 63g (molar mass of HNO3) = 126 grams of theoretical pure nitric acid.

And about the concentration:

Mass of HNO3 / (Water + Mass of HNO3)

 

[Lou]

Nitric acid's density is higher that 1.42 g/cc at 100%, of that I am positive. It would be some feat to get a reliable density on 100% nitric anyways, as it is constantly decomposing.

When you make poor man's nitric acid, you're making it from sulfuric acid and nitric acid. If you know how much water is present in the system, you can determine how much water is present to dilute. Recall that sulfuric acid really doesn't give you two equivalents of nitric acid unless you heat.

Instead,
NaNO3 + H2SO4 --> NaHSO4 + HNO3 and it stays there mostly when you do this cold. That's part of the problem with making it like this--it isn't easy to get the sodium hydrogen sulfate out.

That's why you use potassium nitrate, which has lower solubility. Yet it is give and take--there's less nitrate in the potassium salt gram for gram, so more possible contamination of K+, which tends to make less soluble double salts with the precious metals.

It's actually fairly complex.

One option is titrating your nitric acid, but that won't even be accurate because trace sulfuric and bisulfate will make it more acidic than is really the case.

The best option really is to determine the working concentration. Take a metal that will only dissolve in nitric acid and put it in your nitric acid. Mass it before and after it stops dissolving. The amount of metal lost is how much metal went into the solution.

It is a very, very crude approximation, but so is any other test that you can do at home.

 

[butcher]

to figure moles see atomic weight, of each element, also good simple chemistry info a web seach away.

 

[viacin]

Nitric acid's density is higher that 1.42 g/cc at 100%, of that I am positive. It would be some feat to get a reliable density on 100% nitric anyways, as it is constantly decomposing.

I read it in a chemistry help forum, thats all I know Lou. I have no way of checking it myself unless I have a formula, or make it and weigh it

Thank you both for the help, I made straight A's in science class, but we never had a strict chemistry class. It was all mixed in with the particle, theoretical, and physical. And Butcher, I can figure molecular mass that way, but I though a mole was something different (the amount of substance of a system which contains as many "elemental entities" (eg, atoms, molecules, ions, electrons) as there are atoms in 12 g of carbon-12)?

I have managed to read about half of this in the past few days, it's helping:

[img:203:254]http://cdn.overstock.com/images/products/muze/books/0764554301.jpg[/img]

 

[butcher]

its hard for me to explain anything many others here are better at it, ill try
from periodic chart Hydrogen = 1.00794 so approximate k=39, N=14,O=15,H=1,S-32 KNO3=98g/mole H2SO4=94g/mol NaNO3=81g/mol HNO3=60g/mol H2O=17grams/mole atomic wetght
2 KNO3 + H2SO4 = 2 HNO3 + K2SO4 +(H2O added to disolve)
2x(39+14+{3x15] for KNO3 = 2x98 grams/mole
so: 2 pounds of stump remover KNO3 2x454g(lb)=908g
1 Quart 98% H2SO4 @1.83specific gravity(1.84g/ml x950ml=1738grams per quart)
hope this gets you started the books explain this better than i can, also Steve ,Lou,or many other smart fellers on this forum, but we gotta do our part and study it if we want to figure it out that far, i can see you have a very sharp brain , mines not that great. so check my figures study it an find were I have made mistakes or dont quite understand some thing and help me out with it as This chemistry is something I have just began to study, most people dont care to figure it out they just want to make it ,and use it,
water specific gravity is 1 and 16g/mol this lowers the nitric acid strength,but without using a metal and heat to disolve nitrate it is nessasary(here is where distillation helps concentration)also strong sulfuric acts as a dehydrator so I use lil excess H2SO4 when distilling,its boiling point changes with concentration but is so much higher than HNO3, take care when making nitric it is some dangerous stuff not something to just jump into,keep reading that book and searching the answers are there and the more you look the more you will find, dont give up, you will see it clearly,and you will be about this be teaching me , dont count on my figureing as Im just learnin too, Butcher

 

[butcher]

moles of any compound has a mass(weight) equal to the molecular weight of the compound in grams,add up atomic weights of atoms in compound to get molecular weight (from periodic chart)
specific gravity of substance is compared to another substance (such as water)
you can use weights of your reactants using mililiters and grams,
or use ratios to do your chemistry example 40g to 80g or 1:2 ratio.
%......density (g/mL) can compare to water .
I am not the one to answer these Question's check the books,
I would love to be able to explain it, but it'll be like the blind leading the blind, I was hoping you would study it and help me with it, you have a better education than I do. :wink:

 

[viacin]

Finally made it to Home Depot today. Went in, looked at the drain cleaners for sulfuric acid. I only found one bottle inside of a plastic bag, this one:
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100169339

It says on the front "Contains Lye" and on the back it says: "Contains sodium hydroxide and potasium hydroxide." I didn't see anything that said contains sulfuric acid. Do I have a winner here? If not I'm going to check ACE Hardware tomorrow.

I looked through everything they had, and anything that was worth a hoot contained those three chemicals. I asked the sales guy for the drain cleaner with sulfuric acid in it, and he looked at me like I had a mental problem, then kindly directed me to "check the garden section". I looked around there, nothing even close.

I also checked for the HCl in the pool supplies, nothing either. I did find sodium bisulphate though Too bad I don't need it now, it's on sale. I just wonder if my local stores can carry these things. I have honestly never seen any of it at any hardware store around here, but I've never looked for it either. Any thoughts? I was hoping to mix saturday, but I'm afraid I may have to order the chemicals now.

 

[Anonymous]

You want Rooto or Liquid Fire

 

[butcher]

Viacin if you bought the caustic soda(sodium hydroxide)(lye), also used as drain cleaner(safe for Iron pipe)
it wasn't a waste, you can use it in your chemistry,
this another one of the very dangerous chemicals,
they used this to make soap(biodiesel a byproduct) was also used on old ships when they didnt want to bury a sailor at sea they would pack the body in it to bring it home would eat the dead flesh off bones making soap and preventing disease on the ship. remember when I was a kid the old folks would leach wood ash's to make soap with hog fat, I leach hardwood ash's to remove the hair from the deer skin before I tan their Hide,
it is dangerous stuff.
I believe can be more so than the acids, when you get it on yer hands they will get slimy thats your skin and the oils in it changing to soap
it is opposite of acids, do a little study on PH.
caustic soda and HCL in correct mixture can make sodium chloride (table salt), but reaction with acid can be Violent, both a strong acid and strong base can burn you, table salt you can eat, I wouldn't eat any I made but have tasted,this is similar to what we are doing with refining, making salts of metals (acid + metal = salt of metal), also check out a few pages on electromotive (EMF)series, this is very important to understand in this field,the more you study the more you find there is you still need to learn. just keep looking for your materials they are there, sometimes takes a while to find them, and usually looking for one you will find others. HCl (HydroCloric Acid) used to clean concrete also calld common name Muratic acid, and Sulfuric acid used as drain cleaner(stores dont sell as much as they used to, acid attacks metal plumbing and store shelves sulfuric acid can also be called oil of vitriol in old text on refining ect.

 

[butcher]

check Ace hardware, or other hardware store,also look for tin roofing flange,Your needed acids, ammonium chloride solder iron cleaner block,
95% Sn(tin)solder, and many other things talked about in this forum.
I am not saying buy them till you need them but search and make a list so you know where they are when tou need them, remember read lables, and have fun,

edit addition do not order almost every thing you can get local, I live 27 miles from a small town and they have 90% of what I need.
NAPA auto store sells new battery acid that can be concentrated to 98%
remember patients it will be your key to sucsess.

 

[qst42know]

While you were at Home Depot you should have checked the paint department for muriatic acid concrete etch (HCL). If there is a Battery Wholesale store there they sell battery fluid 35% sulfuric.

 

[viacin]

If there is a Battery Wholesale store there they sell battery fluid 35% sulfuric.

Yeah, I had thought about that option, but I'm trying to avoid boiling sulfuric acid at this point. I feel like I have more experience to gain before I go down that road.

I wasn't too worried about the HCl, because AR isn't my goal yet. I did forget about the concrete etcher though, I should have checked.

And butcher, then that would have been a waste I'm not planning on making soap any time soon. The bars at wal-mart will do just fine.

 

[Anonymous]

Some of the prices for reagent grade acids seemed high to me. I called a local chemical supply (they primarily supply water treatment plants in the area) to get a quote on the HCL and Nitric Acid reagent grade in 1gal bottles.

HCL $25/gal (10#)
HNO3 $35/gal (7#)

Definately more expensive than making your own. But it would be pure, is this pricing reasonable for reagent grade acids? I have 25gal of HCL that was given to me, so I was planning to get nitric to use with it. But I wouldn't need the buy the reagent grade I could also use industrial grade nitric to mix with the conc HCL, true? I will have to call them next week and check how much they charge for industrial grade.

 

[Harold_V]

But I wouldn't need the buy the reagent grade I could also use industrial grade nitric to mix with the conc HCL, true?

You can achieve very acceptable results by refining with tech grade acids. I did it for years. I used reagent grade only for making test solutions, with the exception of the final wash of my re-refined gold, at which time I used reagent grade HCl.

I also used tap water for all my processing, except for when making electrolyte for my silver cell. I had no problems to report. I'll let you judge for yourself if my gold was of quality by the picture, below. The gold was not pickled after creating shot.

I've posted this picture many times, but I never tire of seeing it. I hope others feel the same way. If you've seen enough, make mention.

Harold

 

[butcher]

Harold I always like looking at that picture

 

[viacin]

Harold, are you kidding me? Tired of looking at beautiful gold? no way! I wish you had more pics of your refined materials, and processes.


and misnomer. $35 for a gallon of reagent grade nitric is cheap, but at the same time it's very expensive. What I mean is, 2.5L bottles sell for about $55. But, you can buy a 15 gallon SS keg of technical for about $45 from brenntag. However, you will pay a $250 deposit on the keg. If you only want a gallon or so to experiment around with, then you have a good deal. But, if you want to go full production here, I'de suggest you get a 55 gallon drum of technical grade from Brenntag or Univar.

I would be just as happy using technical grade as I would reagent. And seeing how technical is cheaper, then that would be my choice except for the occasions mentioned by Harold. I like to use distilled water however, since my local tap water is so full of chlorine and lead (yes, I said lead.). Cost is always an issue when you are literally making money

Ya know, I'm curious what it costs everyone to make their own nitric acid. It costs me roughly $39.10 to make 1L. Highway robbery when you include the time invested. But, I'm also doing something wrong that I have yet figured out. I'm just not getting the yeilds I should. I would expect it is the "Amazing Liquid Fire" I am using for sulfuric acid. My next batch will be made with "Rooto: Professional Liquid Drain Opener" which I have been told by a reliable source is 98% H2SO4 (no msds avaliable?!).