cell ?
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Lazer steve would probably be able to answer this question better, but I believe you keep on using your cell until the black sludge becomes very very thick and extremely dark. Then you would filter this sludge thru multiple coffee filters. Whatever's left in the filter is your gold.
Their could also be gold that made it through the filtered solution (not sure)
Their could also be silver suspended in the filtered solution that would have to be seperated out (again not sure)
I think you can regenerate the solution after all the PM's have been extracted.
From lazersteve's video I recall him saying that his cell was being used for a month before he did his filtration on the sludge.
I don't think you add Sulphuric acid to your cell while it is in use beside's the original 2 cups.
Their could also be gold that made it through the filtered solution (not sure)
Their could also be silver suspended in the filtered solution that would have to be seperated out (again not sure)
I think you can regenerate the solution after all the PM's have been extracted.
From lazersteve's video I recall him saying that his cell was being used for a month before he did his filtration on the sludge.
I don't think you add Sulphuric acid to your cell while it is in use beside's the original 2 cups.
Great answers Ian!
I would like to add just a little more to it.
In the video I say to dilute then filter the entire 3 cups of sulfuric, but GSP has made a great suggestion since the video. He said to sink the sludge and drain off the bulk of the acid being careful not to pour off the black sludge. Then you have less acid to dilute.
I usually pour off 2 1/2 cups out of the 3 cups. To prepare the cell for the next batch I just add 1/2 cup of fresh acid into the undiluted acid that was poured off. This stretches your acid a long way. You only end up using 1/2 cup of acid each time you cycle your cell. :wink:
I run my cell 12-24 hours before harvesting the gold powder. I may run it for 1 or 2 hours straight on any given day.
Ian is correct that if silver was present on the plated scrap, it may end up in the gold. This is why you want to redissolve the powder before melting. I did not redissolve the gold in my video.
Steve
I would like to add just a little more to it.
In the video I say to dilute then filter the entire 3 cups of sulfuric, but GSP has made a great suggestion since the video. He said to sink the sludge and drain off the bulk of the acid being careful not to pour off the black sludge. Then you have less acid to dilute.
I usually pour off 2 1/2 cups out of the 3 cups. To prepare the cell for the next batch I just add 1/2 cup of fresh acid into the undiluted acid that was poured off. This stretches your acid a long way. You only end up using 1/2 cup of acid each time you cycle your cell. :wink:
I run my cell 12-24 hours before harvesting the gold powder. I may run it for 1 or 2 hours straight on any given day.
Ian is correct that if silver was present on the plated scrap, it may end up in the gold. This is why you want to redissolve the powder before melting. I did not redissolve the gold in my video.
Steve
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- Feb 25, 2007
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- 8,360
lazersteve said:
I'm not convinced the average reader understands what a great opportunity there exists when stripping. While you are removing, primarily, values, there's no way in hell you can not take some of the base metals with them. Assuming you are stripping any single element of value, it's unreasonable to assume that the sludge is pure. What a golden opportunity to improve the quality without expending much effort! Do the readers understand that?
The values, after being stripped, are as finely divided as you can hope to achieve. It's dead easy to remove unwanted substances by a boil in acid prior to dissolving the lot for selective precipitation. In a sense, it's the equivalent to a second refining. You can accomplish far more work by this method than you could hope to achieve by melting with flux and hoping for the removal of base metals by that system.
Try to keep in mind that base metals are not removed by flux unless they are first oxidized. To hope to oxidize them entirely is a tall order, and totally unnecessary, especially considering that purifying by heating is a long, drawn out process that yields less than acceptable results without the use of chlorine.
After separating your values from sulfuric, a boil in nitric acid and water would do wonders towards raising the quality. You'll notice the color shift of the acid wash, indicating it's dissolving base metals that lower the quality of you final product if it is not removed by some means. There is no more opportune time to do that than after separating the sludge from your sulfuric acid, and certainly BEFORE melting. Once melted, dissolution is a more involved process.
Be certain to test all solutions before discarding. While none of the values should be dissolved by the above recommended process, it's smart to play it safe.
Harold
aflacglobal
Well-known member
selective precipitation :idea:
This would be a good topic . Could someone do a segment on the different types of precipitants for various metals in different acids. I know it has been covered in various threads, but i don't think we have ever really went deep into it. :?:
This would be a good topic . Could someone do a segment on the different types of precipitants for various metals in different acids. I know it has been covered in various threads, but i don't think we have ever really went deep into it. :?:
Ralph said:
Ralph,
When GSP reposted the activity series recently he touched on this topic. Once I get my DMG in, I'll mix up a batch of Auric Chloride, Palldium Chloride, and Copper Chloride then combine them and precipitate each as selectively as I can. This sounds like it will be fun.
Steve
aflacglobal
Well-known member
I had figured this for my cell cycle. If i ever get to it that is. I have all the stuff for the cell i am just waiting to find so other things so i can get the ( Red neck lab ) set up. :shock:
I'm one step from S.C.W.O. That's as far as parts go. No telling how long it will take to get that one together. That dam reaction vessel. The rest is really not much of a problem. But back to the point.
I was going to have three different sets of acids made up. When the first one is spent replace it with the next one. Then take and dilute and follow steves lead. Then after it is filtered take it and cool it. 40 F this should cause the remaining metals to drop. Their should be some that will remain. Say 5-10 percent. These will roll over. ( On the next cycle these metals will all drop again except that same 10 % ) Then do the Catfish method and your back to square one.
Would this work :?:
Some information :arrow: The pdf is awsome. I think this is right up your line Chris. I look for information in weird places. :roll:
I'm one step from S.C.W.O. That's as far as parts go. No telling how long it will take to get that one together. That dam reaction vessel. The rest is really not much of a problem. But back to the point.
I was going to have three different sets of acids made up. When the first one is spent replace it with the next one. Then take and dilute and follow steves lead. Then after it is filtered take it and cool it. 40 F this should cause the remaining metals to drop. Their should be some that will remain. Say 5-10 percent. These will roll over. ( On the next cycle these metals will all drop again except that same 10 % ) Then do the Catfish method and your back to square one.
Would this work :?:
Some information :arrow: The pdf is awsome. I think this is right up your line Chris. I look for information in weird places. :roll:
The PDF is excellent. Like a chemical operations course in itself.
The DOC was more interesting to me. I finally learned the difference between electrowinning and electrorefining. Electrowinning is winning the metal from the solution. Electrorefining is the refining of impure anodes.
In the DOC, if you look down to the Electrorefining section, the photos show several tankhouses. Workers can walk on top of the tanks, on the electrodes. I spent a week, one time, at the Anaconda Copper tankhouse, in Butte, Mt. I even got to walk on top of the tanks - pretty exciting. They had 2500, 600 gallon copper cells (I think) - 1,500,000 gallons.
The DOC was more interesting to me. I finally learned the difference between electrowinning and electrorefining. Electrowinning is winning the metal from the solution. Electrorefining is the refining of impure anodes.
In the DOC, if you look down to the Electrorefining section, the photos show several tankhouses. Workers can walk on top of the tanks, on the electrodes. I spent a week, one time, at the Anaconda Copper tankhouse, in Butte, Mt. I even got to walk on top of the tanks - pretty exciting. They had 2500, 600 gallon copper cells (I think) - 1,500,000 gallons.
aflacglobal
Well-known member
Yeah i like the way the PDF breaks it down and shows the steps in dummy terms. It seems the problems that plates face is exactly what i want to happen in my project Aflac
Segment. I am now looking at ways of selectively removing components from circuit boards. I like sulfuric acid. Doesn’t tend to evaporate like other acids. It's a mineral acid. Has a high boiling point.
When you chill it you can drop the metals out and start over by just adding water. Did you check out the water consumption for the crystals?
HEPTAHYDRATES are formed at a higher temperature and acid percentage on the curve than MONOHYDRATE crystals and hold 7 molecules of water in their weight.
:shock:
FERROUS SULFATE MONOHYDRATE contains one molecule of water,
FeSO4.H2O (a very fine white precipitate)
FERROUS SULFATE HEPTAHYDRATE contains seven molecules of water,
FeSO4.7H2O (a coarse clear green crystal which can grow to any size )
The SIMPLICITY of it all
- - We strip in sulfuric acid all the while making sulfate crystals
- - We pickle until the sulfate crystal concentration reaches the maximum
allowable under circumstances dictated by the operation of temp and acid concentrations.
- - We cool the resultant spent acid, all the while making sulfate crystals
- - We cool until the lowest possible temperature is reached
- - We separate the resultant crystals from the acid
- - We add water to make up for volume lost
- - We re-heat the resultant recovered acid
- - We start all over again.
I'm still playing with a few items.
You and Noxx got me started on this one.
Sulfuric Acid/Hydrogen Peroxide
The sulfuric/peroxide system has the advantages of easy control and
ease of treatment of waste liquors. The pickling action on copper
beryllium is gentle with no noxious fumes generated. There may be
some entrainment of sulfuric acid vapors, however, in a fume exhaust
system. The sulfuric/ peroxide bath is what is known as a “bright
dip” and leaves the surface with a bright, matt finish. A cold water
rinse should be used. The rate of reaction is controlled by hydrogen peroxide (H202) content and temperature. Sulfuric acid can range from 10 to 20 volume percent, and has little effect on reaction rate.
Dissolved copper can be removed from the pickle liquor by cooling
to 60°F or so to allow CuSO4 ~ 5H2O to crystallize out of solution.
The acid can be reused indefinitely. The limited solubility of copper
sulfate is sometimes a liability if provisions are not made to properly
control the copper ion concentration in the pickle liquor. Hydrogen peroxide in contact with dissolved oxygen must be stabilized or
replenished to prevent rapid deterioration of the oxidizing power of
the bath. Many proprietary cleaners which are based on the
sulfuric/peroxide system contain the proper stabilizers.
Segment. I am now looking at ways of selectively removing components from circuit boards. I like sulfuric acid. Doesn’t tend to evaporate like other acids. It's a mineral acid. Has a high boiling point.
When you chill it you can drop the metals out and start over by just adding water. Did you check out the water consumption for the crystals?
HEPTAHYDRATES are formed at a higher temperature and acid percentage on the curve than MONOHYDRATE crystals and hold 7 molecules of water in their weight.
:shock:
FERROUS SULFATE MONOHYDRATE contains one molecule of water,
FeSO4.H2O (a very fine white precipitate)
FERROUS SULFATE HEPTAHYDRATE contains seven molecules of water,
FeSO4.7H2O (a coarse clear green crystal which can grow to any size )
The SIMPLICITY of it all
- - We strip in sulfuric acid all the while making sulfate crystals
- - We pickle until the sulfate crystal concentration reaches the maximum
allowable under circumstances dictated by the operation of temp and acid concentrations.
- - We cool the resultant spent acid, all the while making sulfate crystals
- - We cool until the lowest possible temperature is reached
- - We separate the resultant crystals from the acid
- - We add water to make up for volume lost
- - We re-heat the resultant recovered acid
- - We start all over again.
I'm still playing with a few items.
You and Noxx got me started on this one.
Sulfuric Acid/Hydrogen Peroxide
The sulfuric/peroxide system has the advantages of easy control and
ease of treatment of waste liquors. The pickling action on copper
beryllium is gentle with no noxious fumes generated. There may be
some entrainment of sulfuric acid vapors, however, in a fume exhaust
system. The sulfuric/ peroxide bath is what is known as a “bright
dip” and leaves the surface with a bright, matt finish. A cold water
rinse should be used. The rate of reaction is controlled by hydrogen peroxide (H202) content and temperature. Sulfuric acid can range from 10 to 20 volume percent, and has little effect on reaction rate.
Dissolved copper can be removed from the pickle liquor by cooling
to 60°F or so to allow CuSO4 ~ 5H2O to crystallize out of solution.
The acid can be reused indefinitely. The limited solubility of copper
sulfate is sometimes a liability if provisions are not made to properly
control the copper ion concentration in the pickle liquor. Hydrogen peroxide in contact with dissolved oxygen must be stabilized or
replenished to prevent rapid deterioration of the oxidizing power of
the bath. Many proprietary cleaners which are based on the
sulfuric/peroxide system contain the proper stabilizers.
goldenchild
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2009
- Messages
- 1,810
lazersteve said:
How about silver + palladium chloride? :lol:
A
Anonymous
Guest
Harold wrote:
It is imperative that you strip a minimal amount of base metals.And as stated above,the seperation later is a very easy.Its better to seperate the gold from base metals later,than to not get all of your gold now.
This does not mean allow your pins to strip for 5 minutes after you think they are done.It only takes a couple of seconds extra to get the job done.
I just wanted to add something.For those that are not familiar with cell use and operation,removing base metals,within reason,is a good thing.While almost every pin manufactured has a nickle plating under the gold to stop migration,gold filled,plated,rolled....etc,does not neccesarily have this.So migration is more predominant in plated jewelry.And if you are not stripping at least a little bit of base metals,then you are not getting all of the gold.
It is imperative that you strip a minimal amount of base metals.And as stated above,the seperation later is a very easy.Its better to seperate the gold from base metals later,than to not get all of your gold now.
This does not mean allow your pins to strip for 5 minutes after you think they are done.It only takes a couple of seconds extra to get the job done.
