Hi forum, have had about 3 kilograms (7lbs) of ceramic cpus bathing in AP with a bubbler for last 4 days when ive been checking the vessels is extremely dark brown however everything appears to be stripping nicely no change in 24 hours so I added some water and it slightly gave off a little bit of smoke so I added a little more acid and peroxide 12 hours later Anxious to save myself some time later on I decided to transfer the vessel into another bucket and clean what foils i had collected already from the bottom of the vessel. However upon collecting the sediment all I got was mainly a black mess of stripped pins and cpu dies not a foil in sight. Am I too inpatient or have I done something wrong here? Aplogies for photo quality its best I could get.
Confused about AP
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goldenchild
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Sounds like your black mess is gold. Especially since you saw no foils. The ap probably dissolved your foils and the gold was plated out by the pins base metal(s). Whatever you do don't throw anything away! Make sure you test all your solutions with stannous and filter them extremely well.
It does sound like you are impatient and AP is for the patient. But there are other ways to get to the end game faster. May I suggest that you separate the pins from the ceramics if possible. Think of how much less solution you'd use for just the pins and how much smaller the reaction vessel would be. There are a bunch of ways other than AP(not that AP is bad). Here are a few ways
By member Sucho
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=8813&hilit=tall+form(towards bottom of page)
Sucho breaks the cpus up and treats them in HCL. Doing it this way will keep the gold intact without dissolving it.
By member Samuel
The separation method probably wont work for ceramics but it illustrates the point I was making about the seperating the pins from the cpu
Removing pins and processing pins(video on bottom)
http://goldnscrap.com/index.php?opt...fiber-cpu&catid=36:scrap-cpu-a-chips&Itemid=2
It does sound like you are impatient and AP is for the patient. But there are other ways to get to the end game faster. May I suggest that you separate the pins from the ceramics if possible. Think of how much less solution you'd use for just the pins and how much smaller the reaction vessel would be. There are a bunch of ways other than AP(not that AP is bad). Here are a few ways
By member Sucho
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=8813&hilit=tall+form(towards bottom of page)
Sucho breaks the cpus up and treats them in HCL. Doing it this way will keep the gold intact without dissolving it.
By member Samuel
The separation method probably wont work for ceramics but it illustrates the point I was making about the seperating the pins from the cpu
Removing pins and processing pins(video on bottom)
http://goldnscrap.com/index.php?opt...fiber-cpu&catid=36:scrap-cpu-a-chips&Itemid=2
Geo
Well-known member
if you have a bubbler going, theres no need to add any more H2O2 than the amount you first added to start the reaction. by adding more, you could have dissolved some of the foils in solution. think about this. the bubbler keeps the solution oxygenated and then you add extra oxygen in the form of H2O2, hcl acid will dissolve gold in the presence of excess oxygen. use a magnet and see how much of the material left is magnetic. odds are, its Kovar from incomplete digestion. my advise would be to add all the material back to the solution and proceed with the removal of ALL the base metal before doing anything else.
i would like to add a couple of points. (1) when your digesting CPU's with AP, the P part is unnecessary. i know what you must be thinking. this guy doesnt know AP. the pins on the CPU's is iron based, theres very little copper in a CPU for the AP to work with. hcl when in the presence of oxygen will react with iron and create ferric chloride which is why the color of the solution is off.this is to your benefit because ferric chloride dissolves iron faster than AP anyway.
(2) you would have had better results with a cleaner product and faster if you would have reacted the CPU's in straight hcl on heat. a prolonged boil in hcl would have dissolved the pins in hours instead of days and you wouldnt have had to worry about dissolving your foils.
i would like to add a couple of points. (1) when your digesting CPU's with AP, the P part is unnecessary. i know what you must be thinking. this guy doesnt know AP. the pins on the CPU's is iron based, theres very little copper in a CPU for the AP to work with. hcl when in the presence of oxygen will react with iron and create ferric chloride which is why the color of the solution is off.this is to your benefit because ferric chloride dissolves iron faster than AP anyway.
(2) you would have had better results with a cleaner product and faster if you would have reacted the CPU's in straight hcl on heat. a prolonged boil in hcl would have dissolved the pins in hours instead of days and you wouldnt have had to worry about dissolving your foils.
Thanks golden, point taken about patience 
I actually dont mind waiting just got a little inpatient due to the err mishap I just had melting the powder from the first run of fingers I got and having the bowl crack on me was a porclein bowl and just went pop although i very slowly heated it up to tempreture I was using a mapp torch and after 10 or so pop. so had the urge to recover some losses. A/P is about as far as I want to go I think as playing with Nitric and stuff scares the heck outa me. To separate those pins I think would be near impossible theres so many there, I have filtered several times and just dropped the filtrate with some SMB that contained the rinse water I had a slight reaction and it took on a slight brownish tinge in colour I done this as I haver no stannous atm and no tin to make any. What would be the best way to recover the Gold foil from the reaction solution as present? as far as im aware it should be emerald green, However from the moment I started adding the peroxide to the acid the vessel went brown.
Please forgive my newbiness, I do promise to be more patient and am taking the time to study as much on my own as I can, and thanks again for your help
I actually dont mind waiting just got a little inpatient due to the err mishap I just had melting the powder from the first run of fingers I got and having the bowl crack on me was a porclein bowl and just went pop although i very slowly heated it up to tempreture I was using a mapp torch and after 10 or so pop. so had the urge to recover some losses. A/P is about as far as I want to go I think as playing with Nitric and stuff scares the heck outa me. To separate those pins I think would be near impossible theres so many there, I have filtered several times and just dropped the filtrate with some SMB that contained the rinse water I had a slight reaction and it took on a slight brownish tinge in colour I done this as I haver no stannous atm and no tin to make any. What would be the best way to recover the Gold foil from the reaction solution as present? as far as im aware it should be emerald green, However from the moment I started adding the peroxide to the acid the vessel went brown.Please forgive my newbiness, I do promise to be more patient and am taking the time to study as much on my own as I can, and thanks again for your help
Thanks Geo the reason I added the cpus as a whole was because I was under the understanding that not being of the fiber type they would contain little iron/kovar I actually have a bunch from fibers I plan on dissolving in acid, I suspect the pins are mainly other metals and have confirmed with a magnet I pulled from a hard drive. Should I proceed to add the sediment back to the reaction vessel and what measures should I now undergo to get the foils back without loss if possible.Remove the bubbler for couple of days? Roughly the soulution would currently consist of 2.4 litres 28% HCL 1.4 Litres Peroxide, I dont think you dont know AP at all I think im silly not having this dawned on me by now after researching this bubbler addition to AP to reduce the need for peroxide the other night. please forgive me I sometimes make messes of things when I take on to much information at once... lesson learnt.
please forgive me I sometimes make messes of things when I take on to much information at once... lesson learnt.
Geo
Well-known member
if you have dissolved any gold, it will be in the fines left over after all the other material is dissolved. if you have any magnetic material in the bottom of the bucket, place all the material back in the solution and let it proceed with the dissolution of the base metal. after a week has gone by, it is safe to assume that everything that is going to dissolve is already dissolved. when you decant the solution, leave the last few inches of liquid and safely tilt the bucket on the edge (i place a brick under one side) this will concentrate all the solids to one side. siphon the remainder of the liquid off or use Butchers method of using a turkey baster bulb and draw the fluid down that way. be sure to leave all solids whether its foils or powder. rinse the final inch or so of solution containing all solids into a glass container and let it all settle. decant slowly down to the solids and add more water. repeat this rinse until water stays clear. next, rinse with hot hcl as many times as it takes until solution remains clear (not much is needed, just enough to cover material). then follow with the water rinses, again until water stays clear. now you can dissolve the solids and filter.
Thankyou for your time Geo,
As im am still a tad confuzzled confused and puzzled. To clarify. Could you please confirm.
Leave bubbler going?
1.Add Sediment back into centre bucket.
2.Decant after another 3 and a half days which will total a week. From when I have started
3. ??? Gold left is solids? im under the impression just let it dissolve and then drop with SMB after filtering and washing the solids from the solution several times with water.
As im am still a tad confuzzled
confused and puzzled. To clarify. Could you please confirm.Leave bubbler going?
1.Add Sediment back into centre bucket.
2.Decant after another 3 and a half days which will total a week. From when I have started
3. ??? Gold left is solids? im under the impression just let it dissolve and then drop with SMB after filtering and washing the solids from the solution several times with water.
Geo
Well-known member
leave the bubbler going.
(1) yes, add everything back to the reaction.
(2) yes, one week in all. if three more days make a week, then three days it is.
(3)any gold that was dissolved cemented out as a black powder on any solid iron or copper as soon as all the excess oxygen was used up. no SMB needed. if you want assurance you can test the solution with stannous chloride. be mindful of false positives.
(1) yes, add everything back to the reaction.
(2) yes, one week in all. if three more days make a week, then three days it is.
(3)any gold that was dissolved cemented out as a black powder on any solid iron or copper as soon as all the excess oxygen was used up. no SMB needed. if you want assurance you can test the solution with stannous chloride. be mindful of false positives.
qst42know
Well-known member
Test that solution for disolved gold.
What strength of peroxide?
What strength of peroxide?
Geo, thanks for that great tip about propping the bucket up at an angle with a brick to concentrate the solids in the corner! Its the simple little solutions that are right in your face that are so easily over looked. I will defiantly be using that trick from now on! Once again I have to say, geo you are the man!
Geo
Well-known member
thanks Thad. i dont profess to know much but everyones welcome to everything i know.
Geo said:
Modesty, proof of an experienced and skilful refiner who knows his trade in this case 8)
So basically Geo apart from the fact u is a wiz
as soon as all the pins and base metals dissolve the powder will drop to the bottom of the bucket, What do I do if all the pins and base metals aren't dissolved withing a week will the powder still drop? I had a peep in the vessel today and there still appears to be quiet a few pins there to dissolve. I considered putting the bubbler in the centre bucket of the vessel to speed things up in dissolution would this help?
as soon as all the pins and base metals dissolve the powder will drop to the bottom of the bucket, What do I do if all the pins and base metals aren't dissolved withing a week will the powder still drop? I had a peep in the vessel today and there still appears to be quiet a few pins there to dissolve. I considered putting the bubbler in the centre bucket of the vessel to speed things up in dissolution would this help?
Geo
Well-known member
placement of the air source doesnt effect the speed of the dissolution, but heat does. i know its hard to heat liquid in a plastic bucket. one member suggested using a metal tub to set the bucket in and add water to the tub and use a fish tank heater in the tub to warm the water thus warming the liquid in the bucket. since there is still quite a bit of material left, instead of rushing it and keeping on disturbing the process, i would suggest letting the chemicals do their work and try to concentrate on something else for a few more days. the process you decided to try is a set and forget type of process. every time you stop the air or remove the solution to check on it means it has to start the reaction over and over prolonging the wait time. trust me, its not going anywhere. if you let it sit there and bubble for a month, it will not hurt any of the gold or other PM's. if you need it in a hurry for a fast turn around, you really should have picked a different process. switching gears now would probably cause you more problems than just having patience and letting it be.
by the way, as long as you have solid base metal and you dont add more H2O2, you will not have to worry about gold being in solution. any gold that may have dissolved is now a fine powder either free floating in the solution or on the bottom of the bucket or still stuck to the base metal it cemented out on.
by the way, as long as you have solid base metal and you dont add more H2O2, you will not have to worry about gold being in solution. any gold that may have dissolved is now a fine powder either free floating in the solution or on the bottom of the bucket or still stuck to the base metal it cemented out on.
I will be more patient and leave alone I have some lids here so ill go start on preparing for that and do it properly this time. I was just worried was all. thanks again for settling my nerves. I do really appreciate your time and efforts to help me.
Decanted solution today and most pins are dissolved however some still remain, no powder at bottom of bucet. what to do? I going to go and get some solder to make some stannous and test the solution for gold, if it returns positive shall I drop a ball of copper in? or just leave sit for few more days?
Geo
Well-known member
the fact that you still have solid pins would exclude the possibility of gold being in the solution. just re-use the solution for the next batch. you can reclaim the floating foils now, but they will be contaminated. the very tip of the pin could still be in the hollow tube. if you collect the foils now, wash with HOT hcl before dissolving in hcl and bleach. keep in mind, the solution will still be green from the copper and will need to be refined again.
Geo
Well-known member
its amazing and somewhat disappointing that what looks like a lot of foils makes such a small amount of gold powder. thats how gold gets lost in the process. when you dissolve gold foils by accident, the resulting gold powder that cements can be hidden under a very small amount of (undissolved pins, solder mask, copper chloride crystals, trash, loose components) just to mention a few. gold is heavy and will migrate to the bottom of the pile. some will still be stuck to what ever metal it cemented out on. in your case, you need to continue the dissolution of all the pins and collect all the powder. there will be more stuck to any undissolved pins.
