Confused about AP
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Geo
Well-known member
it certainly wouldnt hurt. just dont add water, it could produce copper chloride crystals making it harder to reclaim any powders.
by the way, this is from CPU's? have you reclaimed any gold from this or are you still trying to get the first bit from it?
by the way, this is from CPU's? have you reclaimed any gold from this or are you still trying to get the first bit from it?
Geo I have been doing some more study on the forum and I am now assuming most of my base metals are still cememnted to the cpus and pins had a look at a pentium pro that was in there and its black as mud If the solution tests negative forAu HCL I shall proceed to rejuvenate the solution and dissolve the rest of the base metals and all shall be fine.
Does this sound correct? I think im finally starting to get the basics
.
Does this sound correct? I think im finally starting to get the basics
.
Geo
Well-known member
normally, the way ceramic CPU's are processed, is to remove the gold plated lids. they are heavy pieces of base metal that can not be processed in AP. they are an alloy of copper and tungsten with gold plating. the brazing that welds them down contains a large percentage of the gold in a CPU. aside from the lids and legs, theres very little base metal in a CPU. you will have to process the lids with either nitric acid to remove the copper or AR to dissolve the whole lid (which takes longer). the legs are iron based so its a slow go in AP to dissolve the legs. then theres gold plated directly to the ceramic body, AP will not effect this at all and will have to be dissolved with AR.
this is why ceramic CPU's are processed in AR to begin with. honestly, what you are doing is wasting time and chemicals. in this endeavor i will help you to the best of my ability because even a failure is a plus when your learning. when you finally give up on AP as a way to process these CPU's i will also try to help you process them the right way.
i didnt try to stop you because if i had, you would have tried anyway and maybe hurt yourself or made a mess of it that you may not have been able to straighten out.
now i have to give you some hard advise. decant the solution you have now and store it in a plastic container with a label so you what it is. take all the material you have from this, everything, and place it in a container with a lid and set it aside. look up "poor man's AR". this is the process that you will need to follow if you hope to recover the gold from your CPU's.
if you want to proceed with AP to see how far you can go with it, put everything back in the reaction container and start the process again. the legs will eventually dissolve but thats about as far as your going to get with AP.
this is why ceramic CPU's are processed in AR to begin with. honestly, what you are doing is wasting time and chemicals. in this endeavor i will help you to the best of my ability because even a failure is a plus when your learning. when you finally give up on AP as a way to process these CPU's i will also try to help you process them the right way.
i didnt try to stop you because if i had, you would have tried anyway and maybe hurt yourself or made a mess of it that you may not have been able to straighten out.
now i have to give you some hard advise. decant the solution you have now and store it in a plastic container with a label so you what it is. take all the material you have from this, everything, and place it in a container with a lid and set it aside. look up "poor man's AR". this is the process that you will need to follow if you hope to recover the gold from your CPU's.
if you want to proceed with AP to see how far you can go with it, put everything back in the reaction container and start the process again. the legs will eventually dissolve but thats about as far as your going to get with AP.
Thankyou Geo,
Initially I did plan on doing this with HCL to remove the base metals, and then adding it to a solution of nitric and slowly adding HCL, but the idea scares the hell out of me and Ive been hoping to not go there because like just one breath of that stuff and your a goner, and ill have to go bush to do that anyway as im in close proximity to neighbours etc. I was thinking about setting up a distillation apparatus to eliminate the possibility of any fumes, then I might feel a little more comfortable about the whole idea If I have to follow this path, But if its gonna take 2 hours or so to do this are there going to be fumes for 2 hours? what im trying to say is if I set up a distallation apparatus to counter this how large is tfhe recieving vessel going to have to be anyway? Aside from that even if that is a possiblity to eliminate the fumes im going to have to go say hello to that beaker when all is said and done anyway.
The hard advice and your willingness to help is appreciated
Initially I did plan on doing this with HCL to remove the base metals, and then adding it to a solution of nitric and slowly adding HCL, but the idea scares the hell out of me and Ive been hoping to not go there because like just one breath of that stuff and your a goner, and ill have to go bush to do that anyway as im in close proximity to neighbours etc. I was thinking about setting up a distillation apparatus to eliminate the possibility of any fumes, then I might feel a little more comfortable about the whole idea If I have to follow this path, But if its gonna take 2 hours or so to do this are there going to be fumes for 2 hours? what im trying to say is if I set up a distallation apparatus to counter this how large is tfhe recieving vessel going to have to be anyway? Aside from that even if that is a possiblity to eliminate the fumes im going to have to go say hello to that beaker when all is said and done anyway.
The hard advice and your willingness to help is appreciated
Geo
Well-known member
yes, you can set up a small apparatus to scrub the fumes from a small reaction with little problem. you would need to do it outside and maybe at night so as to not draw attention. you can use an Erlenmeyer flask with a glass nipple (like the kind used for vacuum filtering) a stopper (i have used rubber, but it must be wound with several layers of teflon tape tightly on all surfaces) nitric acid and rubber doesnt mix well, some chemical resistant tubing and a receiving vessel.
you will need a hotplate to warm the solution and a plastic catch basin large enough for the hot plate to sit in and be far enough from the edge as to not melt it.
you will need hcl (muriatic acid), nitrate (sodium nitrate if you cant source nitric acid), sodium hydroxide (lye, caustic soda).
the reaction between the hcl and the nitrate will produce nitrogen dioxide gas and will need to be neutralized. the Erlenmeyer flask will be the reaction vessel. connect a piece of tubing to the nipple and cut the length needed to reach the bottom of the receiving vessel with a few inches to spare. the receiving vessel with contain sodium hydroxide solution in water and should be a graduated cylinder or a fruit jar if you cant find one. if you use a fruit jar, be sure the depth of the solution is an inch or so from the top.
this is the basics. read this and find some references on the forum. check out samuel-a's website on how to process CPU's and chips http://www.goldnscrap.com
when you get caught up to here, i will give you more instructions.
you will need a hotplate to warm the solution and a plastic catch basin large enough for the hot plate to sit in and be far enough from the edge as to not melt it.
you will need hcl (muriatic acid), nitrate (sodium nitrate if you cant source nitric acid), sodium hydroxide (lye, caustic soda).
the reaction between the hcl and the nitrate will produce nitrogen dioxide gas and will need to be neutralized. the Erlenmeyer flask will be the reaction vessel. connect a piece of tubing to the nipple and cut the length needed to reach the bottom of the receiving vessel with a few inches to spare. the receiving vessel with contain sodium hydroxide solution in water and should be a graduated cylinder or a fruit jar if you cant find one. if you use a fruit jar, be sure the depth of the solution is an inch or so from the top.
this is the basics. read this and find some references on the forum. check out samuel-a's website on how to process CPU's and chips http://www.goldnscrap.com
when you get caught up to here, i will give you more instructions.
Okay Geo heres what I have can quiet easily get nitric or sodium nitrate but if I use nitric acid its going to react straight away right? thus giving me about 2 secs at most to seal the reaction vessel, heres how I am thinking of setting up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JlIPnyrZMw
Apart from the need to use grease I cannot see any problems that jump out at me at least can you? The rubber stopper shouldnt be an issue because glass ones are available.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JlIPnyrZMw
Apart from the need to use grease I cannot see any problems that jump out at me at least can you? The rubber stopper shouldnt be an issue because glass ones are available.
Geo
Well-known member
great. but be warned, unless you already have all the equipment, buying all this will make for one expensive hobby. if you plan on doing a lot of CPU's, then it would be a great investment.
OK, thats not exactly the setup i would choose. the setup you need is not a distillation rig but a scrubber. there are other devices to cut down on NOx emissions, like a reflux apparatus. it looks like a condenser for distilling, but it mounts vertical instead of horizontal. its open at the top and as fumes are emitted, the NOx fumes condense on the cooled sides and return to the reaction vessel. its not 100% but it does drastically reduce the NOx emissions.
what i described before can be used with lab equipment and some members use it regularly. caustic soda will remove the fumes as the gas is bubbled through it. again, it may not be 100%, but it will drastically reduce the NOx fumes emitted.
OK, thats not exactly the setup i would choose. the setup you need is not a distillation rig but a scrubber. there are other devices to cut down on NOx emissions, like a reflux apparatus. it looks like a condenser for distilling, but it mounts vertical instead of horizontal. its open at the top and as fumes are emitted, the NOx fumes condense on the cooled sides and return to the reaction vessel. its not 100% but it does drastically reduce the NOx emissions.
what i described before can be used with lab equipment and some members use it regularly. caustic soda will remove the fumes as the gas is bubbled through it. again, it may not be 100%, but it will drastically reduce the NOx fumes emitted.
Geo I am considering taking this up as a Job and retiring from my old one, but I want to be sure 100% thats its safe and fumes wont be a problem so I dont mind spending whats required to do so im su with time and experience it will soon pay for itself anyway. You mentioned I need to scrub the fumes with water and you could achieve this by using reflux, probaly dont need to ask this but just for assurance is this appropriate?
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Geo
Well-known member
yes, that is an example of a refluxing apparatus. the longer the condenser, the longer the fumes will be in contact with the cool glass, the more nitric acid is returned to the reaction chamber. you can also incorporate a small scrubber to collect the slight amount of NO2 fumes that make it through the reflux.like i said before, a solution of caustic soda and water will scrub corrosive vapors from the fumes.most scrubbers use some form of vacuum to pull the fumes into the neutralizing environment but if the reaction is kept small enough and you are very mindful of what you are doing, a simple hose run to a vessel with the tip submerged in the liquid may be all you will need. you can smell NO2 fumes in a concentration as small as 1 PPM. it has a very distinctive smell and can be avoided. no canister type filter can filter out NO2 fumes. you should build some sort of fume control devise in case of a container failure or spill.
So what your saying and forgive me if im wrong, is I need to connect some form of tubing to the top of the condenser and have it running into a solution of Naoh to knock out any fumes that make emit themselves out of the water before they get to the outlet? How do Noxx fumes fare with plastic I was thinking along the lines of connecting a plastic duct to the top kind of like you see on some pc cases designed to suck air in through the side to aid c ooling the cpu heatsink and having that connect to a filtration flask with a nipple on each end with the solution in it plugging the top with a glass stopper and on the other nipple connecting that to a vacuum pump and maintaining a small amount of suction with it. <EDIT> Tring to reinvent the wheel here lol
need time to check this out properly
need time to check this out properly
Geo
Well-known member
exactly, you can buy chemical resistant tubing at Lowes or Home-Depot. normal plastic and rubber will spontaneously ignite or even explode in the presence of hot nitric acid.nitric acid and cellophane is two of the ingredients in nitro glycerin.
too the tube in the receiving vessel needs to extend into the solution.
before you do any process with this type of arrangement, check out some of the post on "suck back". when you have a sealed vessel and a condenser with a tube run into liquid, as long as there is solution in the reactor vessel creating fumes or even steam, you have a positive pressure. but should you remove the heat or the reactor runs dry, a vacuum will form in the reaction chamber due to the cooling effect and suck cool liquid into the reaction chamber and at the least fouling the reaction and at the worst causing the reaction vessel to burst.
too the tube in the receiving vessel needs to extend into the solution.
before you do any process with this type of arrangement, check out some of the post on "suck back". when you have a sealed vessel and a condenser with a tube run into liquid, as long as there is solution in the reactor vessel creating fumes or even steam, you have a positive pressure. but should you remove the heat or the reactor runs dry, a vacuum will form in the reaction chamber due to the cooling effect and suck cool liquid into the reaction chamber and at the least fouling the reaction and at the worst causing the reaction vessel to burst.
Great the more I solve the more complicated you make it for me but its good complication am learning alot, till I get this sorted however I wouldd like to try and get what gold I can back from my AP solution I have been decanting throughout the day and letting sit for a while and so forth getting little bits of black powder is there any way I can get it all in one swoop if I drop the solution with copper? I just want to recover what I can from it now and make sure theres nothing dissolved in that solution. Then ill be content about putting the cpus aside and running them through AR with the other few kilo I have when I get this set up properly.
but its good complication am learning alot, till I get this sorted however I wouldd like to try and get what gold I can back from my AP solution I have been decanting throughout the day and letting sit for a while and so forth getting little bits of black powder is there any way I can get it all in one swoop if I drop the solution with copper? I just want to recover what I can from it now and make sure theres nothing dissolved in that solution. Then ill be content about putting the cpus aside and running them through AR with the other few kilo I have when I get this set up properly.
goldenchild
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Geo said:
Alternatively (and probably more practical in this case) Moo could use a fractional setup. Instead of cooling a reflux column he could replace it with a fractionating column and cool a condenser (liebig or graham) instead. This way he could collect the nitric in pure* form. I think this would be more practical because the nitric will have to be removed from solution eventually anyway. Of course the chemical resistant tubing still needs to be used to collect the escaping nitric coming out of the joint connecting the condenser and collector. Just a thought.
Thanks Golden for the suggestion, I am a newb by all stretches of the imagination but may I ask why you feel it is probaly more practical in my case to do this via freactional distallation? I can manage backflow Just want this to be as good as possible without possibility for messing things up
goldenchild
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Moo said:Thanks Golden for the suggestion, I am a newb by all stretches of the imagination but may I ask why you feel it is probaly more practical in my case to do this via freactional distallation? I can manage backflow Just want this to be as good as possible without possibility for messing things up
Sure. It sounds like you want to set up a closed glass system of some sort so I feel that with a few more pieces added to the setup you could kill a few birds with one stone. With fractional distillation you would be ridding the digestive solution of nitric which must be achieved no matter which way you decide to process your material. Also, with a condenser and collector you will be able to reuse a significant portion of your nitric acid.
But honestly... I think a glass closed system would be over complicating things. Especially if you are just getting started. When you have a firm understanding of recovery/refining I think you could do just as well if not better with a hotplate and a few beakers. But ultimately you will decide how you want to go about things.
