jimdoc
Well-known member
bswartzwelder said:
I think he is in Dubai, so I think your safe.
Jim
Cyanide leaching gold fingers and CPUs
- Thread starter kjavanb123
- Start date
Help Support Gold Refining Forum:
I think he is in Dubai, so I think your safe.
Jim
jeneje
Well-known member
:lol: scared are we! just kidding, :mrgreen:bswartzwelder said:
Ken
Unfortunately, ultimately, we ALL live downwind of him. It's just a matter of how close we are. He's totally oblivious. If he works in a hood, all is good. It doesn't matter that those fumes that leave the hood are still deadly and eventually blow in someone's direction.
I dread the day we all read the news and learn that some greedy, &*%$!@ American has caused a huge toxic accident in a foreign country, providing yet another reason to hate us all.
I have posted on this forum. I have PMd this member. So have many veteran members. It doesn't matter what you write. I have given up. I invite everyone else to do the same.
Dave
I dread the day we all read the news and learn that some greedy, &*%$!@ American has caused a huge toxic accident in a foreign country, providing yet another reason to hate us all.
I have posted on this forum. I have PMd this member. So have many veteran members. It doesn't matter what you write. I have given up. I invite everyone else to do the same.
Dave
jeneje
Well-known member
I have come to realize, that a person will do what they want in spite of what others say. This is the wrong attitude I know but...some people have to learn the hard way. None of us can control his action, although we try to instruct and give sound advice they seem to ignore or just don't want to accept it. So...it is what it is! All we can do is hope for the best.
Ken
Ken
Guys, a few things:
1) A fume hood is good, but ... if you feel the need to use a fume hood with cyanides, then you're not treating the chemical with due respect to begin with. Cyanide fumes are composed of hydrogen cyanide produced by sodium cyanide (NaCN) or potassium cyanide (KCN) under acidic conditions ie at a pH below 7. Always dissolve NaCN/KCN in water adjusted to a high pH (ie pH10) and a fume hood should never be necessary. (No harm in using one though.)
2) Doc Williams interestingly addresses the paranoia surrounding cyanide gas in one of his many posts on the Internet (shouldn't be difficult to find). He states that HCN is vilified because of its association with executions. But hydrogen sulphide (HS), a constituent in passing wind, is even more poisonous. It's often used to demonstrate nasty smells in high school chemlabs, but we don't hear the amount of negative comment that we do with cyanide - very probably because no-one has ever been executed by fart.
3) Doc Williams also informs us that sodium thiosulphate can be used to neutralize cyanides. Our OP already appears to know that.
4) Instead of tearing posters a new one, how about:
a. Always use properly labelled appropriate containers in a secure area.
b. Swot up on chemicals you're not familiar with first.
c. Always work with cyanides at a high pH.
d. Cyanide is not appropriate for leaching gold from chips because ... ... ...
1) A fume hood is good, but ... if you feel the need to use a fume hood with cyanides, then you're not treating the chemical with due respect to begin with. Cyanide fumes are composed of hydrogen cyanide produced by sodium cyanide (NaCN) or potassium cyanide (KCN) under acidic conditions ie at a pH below 7. Always dissolve NaCN/KCN in water adjusted to a high pH (ie pH10) and a fume hood should never be necessary. (No harm in using one though.)
2) Doc Williams interestingly addresses the paranoia surrounding cyanide gas in one of his many posts on the Internet (shouldn't be difficult to find). He states that HCN is vilified because of its association with executions. But hydrogen sulphide (HS), a constituent in passing wind, is even more poisonous. It's often used to demonstrate nasty smells in high school chemlabs, but we don't hear the amount of negative comment that we do with cyanide - very probably because no-one has ever been executed by fart.
3) Doc Williams also informs us that sodium thiosulphate can be used to neutralize cyanides. Our OP already appears to know that.
4) Instead of tearing posters a new one, how about:
a. Always use properly labelled appropriate containers in a secure area.
b. Swot up on chemicals you're not familiar with first.
c. Always work with cyanides at a high pH.
d. Cyanide is not appropriate for leaching gold from chips because ... ... ...
belive it or not
about a year and a half ago,and before i found the forum, i was researching methods for refining gold.
i came across a tutorial that explained in depth the process of Cyanide.i read through it and bookmarked it.
i was not intrested in it other than how the process worked.
the amazing part of it was at the end of the tutorial there was an order form along with a form for a permit to buy
the Cyanide for the purpose of hobby gold refining.i live in the usa.
i still have the link,but i will not post it.i will not be responsable for anyones death.
Cyanide,just has no place in a hobby,and that little bit of gold is not worth it either.
as much as i would like to get the gold out sucessfully,i'll wait until someone posts something that will help.
after reading a year and a half including hoke 3 times,it is still in solution.that is ok,it's still there.
some day i will figure it out,but not at the cost of a life.not even the dog.
PLEASE DO NOT KILL MY GRAND CHILDREN.
john
about a year and a half ago,and before i found the forum, i was researching methods for refining gold.
i came across a tutorial that explained in depth the process of Cyanide.i read through it and bookmarked it.
i was not intrested in it other than how the process worked.
the amazing part of it was at the end of the tutorial there was an order form along with a form for a permit to buy
the Cyanide for the purpose of hobby gold refining.i live in the usa.
i still have the link,but i will not post it.i will not be responsable for anyones death.
Cyanide,just has no place in a hobby,and that little bit of gold is not worth it either.
as much as i would like to get the gold out sucessfully,i'll wait until someone posts something that will help.
after reading a year and a half including hoke 3 times,it is still in solution.that is ok,it's still there.
some day i will figure it out,but not at the cost of a life.not even the dog.
PLEASE DO NOT KILL MY GRAND CHILDREN.
john
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2007
- Messages
- 8,360
Of interest should be the fact that cyanide is NOT a refining process, as it is not selective. If you process with cyanide, both silver and gold will be dissolved, as will base metals, assuming you aren't using a very dilute cyanide solution. Cyanide is used for EXTRACTION, not refining. As has been alluded, for the most part, it has no place in the hobby refinery. There are other means to the ends desired.JHS said:
Harold
Harold_V said:
Correct. But, IMO, the main reason that cyanide has not been used in (direct) refining is not it's lack of selectivity (after all the acid side leaches are not generally selective), but the fact that there is not even one satisfactory gold-selective organic solvent that can be used for solvent extraction (SX) at a pH above 7.
Recently though, chemical modifiers have been discovered that allow previously unusable (secondary and tertiary amine) solvents (etc) to now be used at pH's above even 10.
I think use of SX for refining of cyanide leaches has a bright industrial future.
freechemist
In Remembrance
Gratilla,
Cyanide forms very stable complexes not only with gold and silver, but also with all PGMs. All these cyano-complex-anions are of remarkable chemical stability, some of them nearly undistructable by "normal" wet-chemical means. The anion [Au(CN)2]- as an example survives prolonged boiling in aqua regia and/or HCl/Cl2, forming as a final product the complex Anion [Au(CN)2Cl2]-, containing Au(III). From the aqueous leach-solution [Au(CN)2]- can be recovered as the metal e.g. by cementation with zinc or eventually by cathodic reduction through electrolysis. Therefor I can see no reason, to introduce an additional, and in my eyes unnecessary solvent-extraction-step befor reducing [Au(CN)2]- from the leach-solution to the metal.
Cyanide forms very stable complexes not only with gold and silver, but also with all PGMs. All these cyano-complex-anions are of remarkable chemical stability, some of them nearly undistructable by "normal" wet-chemical means. The anion [Au(CN)2]- as an example survives prolonged boiling in aqua regia and/or HCl/Cl2, forming as a final product the complex Anion [Au(CN)2Cl2]-, containing Au(III). From the aqueous leach-solution [Au(CN)2]- can be recovered as the metal e.g. by cementation with zinc or eventually by cathodic reduction through electrolysis. Therefor I can see no reason, to introduce an additional, and in my eyes unnecessary solvent-extraction-step befor reducing [Au(CN)2]- from the leach-solution to the metal.
bswartzwelder
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2011
- Messages
- 660
kjavanb123,
In the most sincere way possible, I hope that neither you nor anybody else on this forum is ever nominated for the Darwin Award.
In the most sincere way possible, I hope that neither you nor anybody else on this forum is ever nominated for the Darwin Award.
solar_plasma
Well-known member
I thought about it and after all, cyanide leaching is something for professionals with professional equipment, who are permitted to work with it. In this country I've seen it only be used in fully sealed systems, which are constructed and tested by people, who has the authority to do so.
Try to calculate, how much HCN could be set free from the amount you are working with, find one of those free disaster management apps and let it calculate the expected result and you will see, what we are talking about. The hazmats, fire fighter, police, emergency teams and the evacuation of your neighbourhood 500 m around, will easily get so expensive, that you never will be able to pay the bill. Then the penalty will not be less. If someone gets ill off it, invalide or dies, it will get in the millions for compensation. No assurance will pay for you. Further you can expect to be sentenced prison, depending on country and indictment even more. If they even assume a terrorism background, you can say goodbye to your [set a word with 3 letters].
As I said,I believed you are a professional refiner, who is doing that legally, - obviously not the case.
You said,it's only you, who can enter your lab, but your lab could burn off, then everything you have on stock will gas off. Happy birthday.
Try to calculate, how much HCN could be set free from the amount you are working with, find one of those free disaster management apps and let it calculate the expected result and you will see, what we are talking about. The hazmats, fire fighter, police, emergency teams and the evacuation of your neighbourhood 500 m around, will easily get so expensive, that you never will be able to pay the bill. Then the penalty will not be less. If someone gets ill off it, invalide or dies, it will get in the millions for compensation. No assurance will pay for you. Further you can expect to be sentenced prison, depending on country and indictment even more. If they even assume a terrorism background, you can say goodbye to your [set a word with 3 letters].
As I said,I believed you are a professional refiner, who is doing that legally, - obviously not the case.
You said,it's only you, who can enter your lab, but your lab could burn off, then everything you have on stock will gas off. Happy birthday.
obviously not the case.
how could you say that?
you can see all the junk on the floor in the upper right corner of the chip picture,and you can see the old piece of cardboard that he is using for a table,
looks to me like he is recycling the cardboard table.and i am sure his fume hood has at least scrubbers.
looks to me that he is a pro.
right?
how could you say that?
you can see all the junk on the floor in the upper right corner of the chip picture,and you can see the old piece of cardboard that he is using for a table,
looks to me like he is recycling the cardboard table.and i am sure his fume hood has at least scrubbers.
looks to me that he is a pro.
right?
RGJohn
Well-known member
kjavanb123 said:
Freechemist,freechemist said:
Surely it's the very selectivity that makes solvent extraction processes so attractive. In the case of butyl diglyme and acid-side leaches, a little care can produce four 9's gold in a two-step process - extraction and precipitation. Similarly with cyanidation and the new modified organic solvents.
The currently available methods for getting gold out of cyanide leaches - zinc or carbon - require multiple further steps to get a saleable product.
freechemist
In Remembrance
Gratilla,
You write:
You write:
That's a fact indeed, which also holds true for [Au(CN)2]- dissolved in an organic solvent, obtained after it's extraction from the original aqueous leach-solution. Thus, I still do not see an additional, in my eyes unnecessary extraction step making sense, as long as the [Au(CN)2]- involved, can be processed into a saleable product directly from the aqueous leach-solution.
Freechemist,
The only mention of extraction of gold from the organic solvent in the source document (Click here if anyone is interested: http://content.lib.utah.edu/utils/getfile/collection/uspace/id/3634/filename/3069.pdf) is:
"Stripping is easily performed with caustic solution of pH 12 or 13."
I had assumed it would be as straight-forward as with butyl diglyme (and oxalic acid). What have I missed?
The only mention of extraction of gold from the organic solvent in the source document (Click here if anyone is interested: http://content.lib.utah.edu/utils/getfile/collection/uspace/id/3634/filename/3069.pdf) is:
"Stripping is easily performed with caustic solution of pH 12 or 13."
I had assumed it would be as straight-forward as with butyl diglyme (and oxalic acid). What have I missed?
I somewhat recall reading a thread on a completely different website concerning a completely different subject matter... from what I can remember their was a member of this other forum which had to do with home pyrotechnic manufacturing.
This person was trying to make a potato gun or some sort of projectile launcher but was unable to find gunpowder or the chemicals required to make gunpowder
*Now gunpowder is considered a "low explosive" because without me getting too technical a low explosive is considered a low explosive if it decomposes slower then the speed of sound, and is generally used as a propellent for projectiles (bullets) if you want to know more please google it because this is not my fort-ay at all. *
Back to the reason I started this post.
This person was unable to find black powder but was able to find some very common chemicals which are required to make a high explosive. So this individual made a post on this other forum talking about what he was planning on doing, The whole while the people who are professionals in the field of pyrotechnics and explosives were telling this person NOT to do what he was planning on doing REPEATEDLY. Well this individual continued to post his progress and tried to explain to the people who were much more knowledgeable than he that he understood what he was doing. All of a sudden no further replies were made by this individual, Nothing... and it showed that this individual had not logged in since his last post.
One way or the other someone of the forum (it may very well have been a moderator or owner of the forum) was able to track down where this individual lived.
as it turns out someone(again it might have been a moderator or the owner of the forum) did a little research and stumbled across a newspaper article from the city that this individual lived which mentioned an individual was recently found deceased in his basement due to an explosive device... without getting to gory he had loaded this potato gun with the high explosive and tried to use it with the potato gun held next to his head.... (you can fill in the blank as to what happened)
kjavanb123 I know you might be thinking that this person was dealing with explosives and he was doing things he was not supposed to do, but think of it this way the people on this other forum were telling him not to do what he was doing because they were professionals in that field
To most people including myself if someone who is much more knowledgeable in a certain field is telling me that something I am thinking of doing is dangerous or is down right deadly you can bet that I would listen to them before it's too late.
Please Please Please listen to what these kind people who are much more knowledgeable in this field are telling you before it's too late.
If you want to be a refiner put out some resumes to all the refiners you can find around where you live and learn from what they teach you and get paid for it.
then you can after that go out on your own at least a little more safely if you are still interested in becoming a refiner.
This person was trying to make a potato gun or some sort of projectile launcher but was unable to find gunpowder or the chemicals required to make gunpowder
*Now gunpowder is considered a "low explosive" because without me getting too technical a low explosive is considered a low explosive if it decomposes slower then the speed of sound, and is generally used as a propellent for projectiles (bullets) if you want to know more please google it because this is not my fort-ay at all. *
Back to the reason I started this post.
This person was unable to find black powder but was able to find some very common chemicals which are required to make a high explosive. So this individual made a post on this other forum talking about what he was planning on doing, The whole while the people who are professionals in the field of pyrotechnics and explosives were telling this person NOT to do what he was planning on doing REPEATEDLY. Well this individual continued to post his progress and tried to explain to the people who were much more knowledgeable than he that he understood what he was doing. All of a sudden no further replies were made by this individual, Nothing... and it showed that this individual had not logged in since his last post.
One way or the other someone of the forum (it may very well have been a moderator or owner of the forum) was able to track down where this individual lived.
as it turns out someone(again it might have been a moderator or the owner of the forum) did a little research and stumbled across a newspaper article from the city that this individual lived which mentioned an individual was recently found deceased in his basement due to an explosive device... without getting to gory he had loaded this potato gun with the high explosive and tried to use it with the potato gun held next to his head.... (you can fill in the blank as to what happened)
kjavanb123 I know you might be thinking that this person was dealing with explosives and he was doing things he was not supposed to do, but think of it this way the people on this other forum were telling him not to do what he was doing because they were professionals in that field
To most people including myself if someone who is much more knowledgeable in a certain field is telling me that something I am thinking of doing is dangerous or is down right deadly you can bet that I would listen to them before it's too late.
Please Please Please listen to what these kind people who are much more knowledgeable in this field are telling you before it's too late.
If you want to be a refiner put out some resumes to all the refiners you can find around where you live and learn from what they teach you and get paid for it.
then you can after that go out on your own at least a little more safely if you are still interested in becoming a refiner.
bswartzwelder
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2011
- Messages
- 660
Ian B,
After reading your post about the guy wanting to make gunpowder, I did a search in the Darwin Awards website. Could not find any reference to it. Anybody familiar with the Darwin website knows it is dedicated to people who have through stupidty removed themselves from the gene pool. Usually, they meet their demise, but on rare occasion, they stiil live, but have rendered themselves unable to produce offspring. Lots of interesting reading there from the guy who strapped JATO (Jet Assisted Take Off unit which helps very heavy aircraft get airborne) units to his car and went out to the desert to try it out. They found parts of his car scattered for miles (if memory serves me correctly). To the guy who strapped weather balloons filled with helium to his lawn chair, (Lawn Chair Larry Walters). He took along a BB gun to shoot holes in the ballons to make his descent. He attained an altitude of 16,000 feet but did not get killed by this escapade. He committed suicide on October 6, 1993 at age 44. Larry didn't earn a Darwin Award for his feat. HOWEVER, on the first page is a story of a guy who picked up a Salsa jar and took a swig of gasoline. After spitting it up onto his clothing, he recovered from the shock, by lighting a cigarette. Man, that one hits close to home.
After reading your post about the guy wanting to make gunpowder, I did a search in the Darwin Awards website. Could not find any reference to it. Anybody familiar with the Darwin website knows it is dedicated to people who have through stupidty removed themselves from the gene pool. Usually, they meet their demise, but on rare occasion, they stiil live, but have rendered themselves unable to produce offspring. Lots of interesting reading there from the guy who strapped JATO (Jet Assisted Take Off unit which helps very heavy aircraft get airborne) units to his car and went out to the desert to try it out. They found parts of his car scattered for miles (if memory serves me correctly). To the guy who strapped weather balloons filled with helium to his lawn chair, (Lawn Chair Larry Walters). He took along a BB gun to shoot holes in the ballons to make his descent. He attained an altitude of 16,000 feet but did not get killed by this escapade. He committed suicide on October 6, 1993 at age 44. Larry didn't earn a Darwin Award for his feat. HOWEVER, on the first page is a story of a guy who picked up a Salsa jar and took a swig of gasoline. After spitting it up onto his clothing, he recovered from the shock, by lighting a cigarette. Man, that one hits close to home.
