Electrochemistry CYLINDRICAL CELL

[renatomerino]

I like the design and how the cell can be disassembled, it seems a lot of thought went into the design, the stainless steel sleeve seems to have some kind of liner or white material (in the picture) on the inside, this I do not understand, is this for a purpose or is this removed?

6 cells a@ 2.2 volts each (17.6 volts)
6 cells @ 8 amps each (48 amps)

A question on the power supply transformer and diodes (or plating rectifier supply),
The voltage is it actually higher like 20 or 24 volt or is the voltage adjustable (tapped transformer or rheostat? I also assume the power supply could supply more than 50 amps if the cell shorted, could you supply some details of the power supply, pumps and tanks, do you circulate the solutions through the cell when it is running or are the cells just filled ran then drained when done, are you using something like ammeters to let you know when cells are full of metals (how are you determining a finish point)?

Sorry for all of the questions, you just have me wondering a lot, and I am impressed with your work here, and would like to learn more about it.

Very nice setup, renatomerino thank you for showing us this, I do find it very interesting, if you do not mind bragging on a few more details, for this cell you have built.

Cells as seen in the battery 6 connect them in series, thus the applied voltage is distributed as:
2.2 +2.2 +2.2 +2.2 +2.2 +2.2 = 13.2 volts and the current is the same for all cells.
The power applied to the battery is 13.2 Volts and 8 Amps.
According to Faraday's law and its electrochemical potential, theoretically deposited 4.2 grams of silver per Amp / Hour.
The current flowing in the battery depends on the applied voltage and having conductivity.

 

[renatomerino]

Oops
6 cells @ 2.2 volts (13.2 volts), no excuse I am bad at math, did not sleep much lately which does not help my skill.

Palladium,
Thanks for proof reading, this makes more sense, could use a large capacity battery charger for the power supply.

(2.2 volts X 8 Amps = 17.6 Watts per cell)
(6 cells @ 17.6 watts = 105.6 watts total)
Power supply the wattage should be doubled. So a 200-watt or larger capacity, I would like to see the diodes in that power supply.

My source of electricity is controlled diodes or SCR (thyristor).
However it is possible to use an electric welder with DC low power regulation sets.
My source of electricity is controlled diodes or SCR (thyristor).
However it is possible to use an electric welder with DC low power regulation sets.
The source I have obtained by modifying a DC electric welder.

 

[renatomerino]

Palladium,
Thanks for proof reading, this makes more sense, could use a large capacity battery charger for the power supply.

That's what i was thinking.

You're right anyway this is a circuit that is used to control SCRs.

 

[butcher]

Thank you for taking time to give us this information, SCR's make the regulation better than the power source I was thinking of.

Just to be clear in my mind, the total current of all cells is 8 amps (not 8 amps each cell)?

 

[renatomerino]

Thank you for taking time to give us this information, SCR's make the regulation better than the power source I was thinking of.

Just to be clear in my mind, the total current of all cells is 8 amps (not 8 amps each cell)?

Right, the current flowing travez of all cells is 8 Amps.
This is the same concept:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjjnXzRci5M

 

[goldsilverpro]

renatomerino.

For some reason, last night, I read every post you've made. I want to thank you for all the great info you've given the forum. You've been very unselfish. I would suggest that all re-read his posts. Thanks!
http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/search.php?author_id=4471&sr=posts

Chris

 

[renatomerino]

renatomerino.

For some reason, last night, I read every post you've made. I want to thank you for all the great info you've given the forum. You've been very unselfish. I would suggest that all re-read his posts. Thanks!
http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/search.php?author_id=4471&sr=posts

Chris

My interest is to share data and experience as I have seen in the forum.
There is much information online about the topics that interest us but lack the exchange of views.
Thank you for your acceptance that enriches us all.

 

[butcher]

renatomerino,
I have not gone back and re-read all of your posts that GSP has, I would like to read them and may spend time doing so later.

I see in just this one thread here a wealth of information, the pictures of the cells you built, the use of the welder and SCR control circuit, and the video of the commercial copper electrolysis recovery from electrolytic solutions, all of this information you provide here I could use, I can also see where many of us members could incorporate these Ideas, into our recovery and refining systems.

I like building things and electronics, and the information you provided here can help me to be able to build the power supply and a cell if I put my mind to it, It could also help me to build a tubular cell, which can have many uses including giving me a way to pre-treat my waste solutions.

Thank You again you are an asset to all of us here on the forum please keep up the good work.
Butcher

 

[goldsilverpro]

renatomerino,

The way I see it is that you have 6 cells, each with 8A applied, for a total of 48A applied to the cathodes. At 4.025 g/A-hr and 100% efficiency, you would deposit 48 x 4.025 = 193g = 6.2 tr.oz./hr = 149 tr.oz./24 hr day. To produce 3kg in a single cell would take about 4 to 5 days at 8A.

Are you running cyanide solutions through the cell or have you switched to thiosulfate? In your cell system, I can see both working. I would guess the silver in the photos was produced from cyanide solutions. At some point, with cyanide, the silver concentration would be reduced to the point where the cathode efficiency would be quite low. Do you reduce the current at that point or, do you use the cyanide to leach more material so as the keep the silver concentration up?

As I understand it, when running gold, you use the steel wool with no current - cementation. You use the current to deposit silver on the SS cathode. Two different setups.

When plating silver from thiosulfate fixer solutions, most cells have rotating cathodes to replenish the silver in the cathode film and prevent the formation of black silver sulfide. I assume the tangential flow and the great flow rate of the solution through the cell would serve the same purpose. Have you tried this with thiosulfate? If so, are you forming any silver sulfide?

These are all assumptions on my part. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[eeTHr]

GSP---

As with chemistry, the terms used for electricity should be accurate in order to avoid confusion.

Current is never "applied." Voltage is applied, and depending on the resistance of the circuit, some amount of current will result.

The current through loads connected in series will be the same through each load. If the entire circuit of the six cells allows a current flow of eight Amps (for a specific voltage), then measurements taken anywhere between the cells will all read eight Amps. This current, for any given voltage applied to the entire circuit, will be dependant on the total resistance of the entire circuit of the six cells.

So the production rate of each cell would be calculated using the eight Amp current flow figure. Then the total production rate would be the individual cell rate multiplied by the number of cells. This would still give the same overall production that you stated---it just sounds a little goofy the way you worded it.... Technically speaking. 8)


P.S. The voltage, however, is divided amongst the cells, so each cell if measured at it's electrical input and output terminals would measure 2.2 volts, when the power supply is providing 13.2 volts to the six cells, which are connected in series.

 

[butcher]

I am still a little confused on cell amperage (current), at first I thought it was 8 Amp per cell, then it was said to be 8 amp total for all cells, this would make a big difference in any calculations made.

Although the cells current will also vary with how much silver or other metals are in the electrolyte, and the cells resistance to current as long as voltage was fixed at a regulated value from the power supply.

From reading many of GSP's posts on cells, I believe he has a good grasp on the electrical theory.

 

[renatomerino]

renatomerino,

The way I see it is that you have 6 cells, each with 8A applied, for a total of 48A applied to the cathodes. At 4.025 g/A-hr and 100% efficiency, you would deposit 48 x 4.025 = 193g = 6.2 tr.oz./hr = 149 tr.oz./24 hr day. To produce 3kg in a single cell would take about 4 to 5 days at 8A.

Are you running cyanide solutions through the cell or have you switched to thiosulfate? In your cell system, I can see both working. I would guess the silver in the photos was produced from cyanide solutions. At some point, with cyanide, the silver concentration would be reduced to the point where the cathode efficiency would be quite low. Do you reduce the current at that point or, do you use the cyanide to leach more material so as the keep the silver concentration up?

As I understand it, when running gold, you use the steel wool with no current - cementation. You use the current to deposit silver on the SS cathode. Two different setups.

When plating silver from thiosulfate fixer solutions, most cells have rotating cathodes to replenish the silver in the cathode film and prevent the formation of black silver sulfide. I assume the tangential flow and the great flow rate of the solution through the cell would serve the same purpose. Have you tried this with thiosulfate? If so, are you forming any silver sulfide?

These are all assumptions on my part. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

It should be noted that in all cells the same current flows 8 Amps and leaving the power supply.
The power consumed by the 6 cells is 13.2 x 8 = 106.4 W
The silver deposited in each cell, theoretically is 8 x 4.025 g/h
Processed solutions derived from leaching with cyanide.
After removing the silver electrowinning solutions are reused in new process.
Inside the cell produces a rotary movement of the solution which prevents passivation.With the steel wool increases the cathodic surface.
Probably also occurs by precipitation with iron replacement.
It is possible to recover silver from thiosulfate solutions.

 

[renatomerino]

GSP---

As with chemistry, the terms used for electricity should be accurate in order to avoid confusion.

Current is never "applied." Voltage is applied, and depending on the resistance of the circuit, some amount of current will result.

The current through loads connected in series will be the same through each load. If the entire circuit of the six cells allows a current flow of eight Amps (for a specific voltage), then measurements taken anywhere between the cells will all read eight Amps. This current, for any given voltage applied to the entire circuit, will be dependant on the total resistance of the entire circuit of the six cells.

So the production rate of each cell would be calculated using the eight Amp current flow figure. Then the total production rate would be the individual cell rate multiplied by the number of cells. This would still give the same overall production that you stated---it just sounds a little goofy the way you worded it.... Technically speaking. 8)


P.S. The voltage, however, is divided amongst the cells, so each cell if measured at it's electrical input and output terminals would measure 2.2 volts, when the power supply is providing 13.2 volts to the six cells, which are connected in series.

Totally agree, you've raised your better than me, is hard for me to raise an idea and translate to another language.
Thanks for the correction.

 

[butcher]

renatomerino,

Heck I can barely raise an idea, and explain it in my own language.

Your doing great, I have no trouble understanding you.

 

[renatomerino]

renatomerino,

Heck I can barely raise an idea, and explain it in my own language.

Your doing great, I have no trouble understanding you.

Hi
My respects to Mr.hutcher

 

[goldsilverpro]

GSP---

As with chemistry, the terms used for electricity should be accurate in order to avoid confusion.

Current is never "applied." Voltage is applied, and depending on the resistance of the circuit, some amount of current will result.

The current through loads connected in series will be the same through each load. If the entire circuit of the six cells allows a current flow of eight Amps (for a specific voltage), then measurements taken anywhere between the cells will all read eight Amps. This current, for any given voltage applied to the entire circuit, will be dependant on the total resistance of the entire circuit of the six cells.

So the production rate of each cell would be calculated using the eight Amp current flow figure. Then the total production rate would be the individual cell rate multiplied by the number of cells. This would still give the same overall production that you stated---it just sounds a little goofy the way you worded it.... Technically speaking. 8)


P.S. The voltage, however, is divided amongst the cells, so each cell if measured at it's electrical input and output terminals would measure 2.2 volts, when the power supply is providing 13.2 volts to the six cells, which are connected in series.

You said that - Current is never "applied."

Are these 1.1 million hits on - "current applied" cathode - all wrong? Some of these sources sound very scholarly.
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22current+OR+amperage+OR+amps+applied%22+cathode&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a

This one I added the keyword, electrowinning. The first hit is the EPA site.
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22current+OR+amperage+OR+amps+applied%22+cathode+electrowinning&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a

I apply a specific amount of current to the cathode by altering the applied voltage. I would never say something so confusing, but it works.

A similar situation is the word "chip." When most electronic guys see these parts in the photos in the link below, they call them them "chips." Strictly speaking, however, what you are visibly seeing is not the chip, but the package that protects the "chip" (the circuit) and gives it means to connect to a PC board, or whatever. The silicon IC "chip" is inside the package and you can't see it in most of these photos. An Intel IC packaging engineer would most probably define these as packages containing chips and not chips, themselves. So, who is right? In this case, is it the majority using the slang term, "chip," or the minority using the correct term, "packages?" Depends on your profession or point of view. I spent several years working with the packaging department (where they package the chips) at Intel and AMD and I cringe when people call the whole assembled units, "chips." However, they are just as right as I am, in their way. They are not correct but they are right. Oftentimes, being "right" is more important than being "correct." Depends on where you are, what you're doing, and who you're dealing with.
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1116&bih=463&q=cpu+chips&gbv=2&oq=cpu+chips&aq=f&aqi=g2g-S2g-mS6&aql=&gs_l=img.3..0l2j0i24l2j0i5i24l6.7729l12588l0l14734l9l9l0l0l0l0l84l681l9l9l0.frgbld.

 

[renatomerino]

This is the steel wool with gold deposited on it.
You can also see that is contaminated with iron cyanide.
I can only use nitric acid to dissolve the iron and separating by filtration as ferric nitrate, for this reason I have all this material to be heated in a crucible to destroy the cyanide.
Try these cyanides with nitric acid produces insoluble ferric ferricyanide is mixed with gold.
In nitric acid dissolves iron chips and is a precipitate of gold, and perhaps some clay and others who will see.

 

[Palladium]

Interesting! What is the gold to silver numbers once this is melted?

 

[renatomerino]

Interesting! What is the gold to silver numbers once this is melted?

So is the iron wool after recovering gold from cyanide leaching solutions.
The initial concentration of gold in solution is 24 mg / l and the final concentration of gold is 1mg/lt, free cyanide is 7 g / l at the beginning of electrolysis.
Roasting of iron wool, gold and other salts is at 650 ° C to destroy cyanides containing insoluble.
After the calcination can be leached with nitric acid to remove the insoluble gold.

 

[eeTHr]

You said that - Current is never "applied."

Are these 1.1 million hits on - "current applied" cathode - all wrong? Some of these sources sound very scholarly.
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22curre ... =firefox-a

This one I added the keyword, electrowinning. The first hit is the EPA site.
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22curre ... =firefox-a

I apply a specific amount of current to the cathode by altering the applied voltage. I would never say something so confusing, but it works.

GSP---

Your're right. They use the terms seemingly interchangeably. It's like fingernails on a chalkboard to me---because while you can apply a voltage to something (an open circuit, for example) and have no resulting current, you cannot apply just a "current" to anything, without some amount of voltage to "push" it.

Obviously, when someone says, "apply a current," they are, indeed, implying to use a voltage which will result in that amount of current flow. It just sounds wrong, that's all.

And in my opinion it can be confusing for people who are new to working with electricity. For example, certain ranges of voltage will cause different things to happen to different substances in electrolytic cells, while changes in the current flow will generally affect the rate at which those different things happen. I don't know very much about cells, other than what I've read (mostly on this forum), but a portion of what I have read has dealt with what I just mentioned. So I would think that it might be important not to confuse current with voltage, and the different ways they are used, with their different effects.

On a very strict technical level, the folks who used the term, "applied current" are misspeaking. Yet it is commonly acceptable. One example is the common term, "AC Voltage," when the AC stands for Alternating Current! It appears that quite awhile back, some people started using the term "current" as a substitute for "electricity." Very confusing. A better term would have been "Alternating Polarity" Voltage. But it's too late now. 8)