Dealing with Waste
- Thread starter Jmk88
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jarlowski1
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2013
- Messages
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Well put Kurt! Thank you Butcher for the amount of time and knowledge you commit to this forum. I don't know if I have thanked you publicly in the last 7 years or so I have been here but I am now. I only hope those that have joined and those that continue to join can see and appreciate and respect that. You too Kurt and Dave... If I don't put your name in this post it isn't because I don't acknowledge your input but the post would become too long. You guys know who you are. On the subject.... the reason for my post is quite in line with what Kurt has said. I am glad Jmk88 has sought help in dealing with his waste and thank him for doing so, but like Kurt said others are not going to be as thorough as Jmk88 has been so with that in mind we have to be careful with what we suggest on the forum. Others are reading it and may misinterpret what is being said. Jmk88 I apologize for that comment I made about not helping you. It was uncalled for. Maybe I should have seen what Kurt has in respect that you are concerned with the safety of things as I am. Hope this clears the air...
This is what the forum is all about, us helping each other, working together as much as we possibly can to educate ourselves and to share so that we all can benefit in some manner.
The members are what make the forum what it is, in dealing with only written words we are very limited, it is easy to misunderstand an intention, easy to misunderstand what is being said of the meaning behind it, just basically misunderstand the written words and thus misunderstand each other, or not know all of the details being blind to anything but words and the images they portray in our minds (true or false).
I praise our members for dealing with these handicaps so well, what an exceptional group of men and women helping each other to improve themselves we have here amongst us here.
Every one of us has something to share here, we all have different experiences in life, different interests, and have gained knowledge and understanding in differing fields, we all have things we understand well and things we do not understand that well, hopefully, we do not go around thinking we know something when we do not because that is just plainly dangerous, each member here has something to share no matter our skill level, and we all can learn something from every member here to help improve our lives.
None of us are really experts (in the true sense), we have just may have a little better understanding or more experience in certain fields or walks of life, and as we work together and overcome our disabilities and we can share those experiences with each other then we all become closer to becoming true experts in our walk of this path in life, and with all of the great members we have on our forum, I feel we all are blessed here to be among such a great group of individuals, I know I have been as you have all help me to better myself.
I cannot say how many times I wanted to make a comment on someone's thread to express my gratitude for what I was learning or how they were helping me to understand something, or how much I appreciated the information they provided, but also did not wish to muddy your thread and so I said nothing and failed to thank you then.
A teacher can learn as much or more from his students than he could ever teach.
You all have been my teachers, we all are students if we wish to learn and grow.
Too bad we have such handicaps to deal with. Or then again just maybe the handicap is also somewhat a good thing for us as a group, because then, on the other hand, there may be a few bloody noses before we could understand each other better and work together :lol: But then again words can cut worse than any sword and can be harder to overcome than a bloody nose. so go figure darned if we do darned if we don't.
Thank you all, you are all just amazing individuals, I am glad and proud to call you my friends.
The members are what make the forum what it is, in dealing with only written words we are very limited, it is easy to misunderstand an intention, easy to misunderstand what is being said of the meaning behind it, just basically misunderstand the written words and thus misunderstand each other, or not know all of the details being blind to anything but words and the images they portray in our minds (true or false).
I praise our members for dealing with these handicaps so well, what an exceptional group of men and women helping each other to improve themselves we have here amongst us here.
Every one of us has something to share here, we all have different experiences in life, different interests, and have gained knowledge and understanding in differing fields, we all have things we understand well and things we do not understand that well, hopefully, we do not go around thinking we know something when we do not because that is just plainly dangerous, each member here has something to share no matter our skill level, and we all can learn something from every member here to help improve our lives.
None of us are really experts (in the true sense), we have just may have a little better understanding or more experience in certain fields or walks of life, and as we work together and overcome our disabilities and we can share those experiences with each other then we all become closer to becoming true experts in our walk of this path in life, and with all of the great members we have on our forum, I feel we all are blessed here to be among such a great group of individuals, I know I have been as you have all help me to better myself.
I cannot say how many times I wanted to make a comment on someone's thread to express my gratitude for what I was learning or how they were helping me to understand something, or how much I appreciated the information they provided, but also did not wish to muddy your thread and so I said nothing and failed to thank you then.
A teacher can learn as much or more from his students than he could ever teach.
You all have been my teachers, we all are students if we wish to learn and grow.
Too bad we have such handicaps to deal with. Or then again just maybe the handicap is also somewhat a good thing for us as a group, because then, on the other hand, there may be a few bloody noses before we could understand each other better and work together :lol: But then again words can cut worse than any sword and can be harder to overcome than a bloody nose. so go figure darned if we do darned if we don't.
Thank you all, you are all just amazing individuals, I am glad and proud to call you my friends.
It’s all good.
I never confuse passion for things with people being unreasonable. I understand the difference.
I have the benefit of having the contacts through my occupation for things like this but I still paid good money and I don’t think anyone starting to do something like we do without a chemistry background is obliged to. It’s not even a lot of money to do. Less than 1000£ which in the long run it you do this for 30 years is relative if you look at it that way. That’s 33.33£ a year! Less than a gram of gold. Plus who knows where it takes you and having a professional waste company to consult with may serve you wonders if luck finds you and you need to expand your practise.
It ties in with my other comments. I don’t think refining should be attempted by people that don’t genuinely want to produce the best product. The money follows that naturally. It’s a bit like sport, we all love watching it and having a kick around with our friends, thinking we’re sportsman for that hour. But what separates us from the pros is passion, dedication and attitude.
They sacrificed and they committed to something they saw through.
I never confuse passion for things with people being unreasonable. I understand the difference.
I have the benefit of having the contacts through my occupation for things like this but I still paid good money and I don’t think anyone starting to do something like we do without a chemistry background is obliged to. It’s not even a lot of money to do. Less than 1000£ which in the long run it you do this for 30 years is relative if you look at it that way. That’s 33.33£ a year! Less than a gram of gold. Plus who knows where it takes you and having a professional waste company to consult with may serve you wonders if luck finds you and you need to expand your practise.
It ties in with my other comments. I don’t think refining should be attempted by people that don’t genuinely want to produce the best product. The money follows that naturally. It’s a bit like sport, we all love watching it and having a kick around with our friends, thinking we’re sportsman for that hour. But what separates us from the pros is passion, dedication and attitude.
They sacrificed and they committed to something they saw through.
replying to jmk88's post.
I have seen in garden nurseries Leaf Curl powder of Copper Hydroxide. Mix with water and spray liberally onto your peach or any stone fruit plant to prevent leaf curl. Is that also a contamination of Copper Hydroxide into the soil? Doesn't seem to hurt the peach tree or any other plant in the nearby area, so how can gardeners get away with it and refiners cannot? Just a thought.
Martijn
Well-known member
Up until a century ago it was common practice to just dump all the waste from whichever process into the river and on landfill sites.
Which has led to serious problems for a lot of people.
The new responsible way is to think about what you're doing to our world.
If every newby here dumps his waste in the soil without thinking, we would be creating a lot of problems for future generations... like pharma labs in india are dumping their toxic medicine waste in the rivers, creating superbacteria. Creating a really big hazard for the entire world population. It's not just cheap and easily replaceable labor, it's the lack of rules that make the location attractive.
Allthough on one hand i believe we should take the warning labels off everything and let stupidity work itself out of the genepool... There will be too much colleteral damage for the rest of us... not really an option in this field.
So if you have a pure product that can be used as plant fungicide or leaf curl stopper, does not say you can spray your refiners waste to do the same.
Surely you will have that exceptional situation where only copper is present, but mist of us have a mix of toxins to deal with.
And the fact that a company has lobbied enough for a product to be allowed in certain areas, does not mean its good for you or your health in the long run.
Making money and responsibility do not often go hand in hand.
Monsanto round up and their genetic crop theft lawyers e.g... pollen blowing with the wind nakes one a thief..
'Until proven, we will deny as long as profit allows...' is not a good responsible example..
I'm sure that even pure copper hydroxide is bad for plants... let alone if for consumption.
Martijn.
Which has led to serious problems for a lot of people.
The new responsible way is to think about what you're doing to our world.
If every newby here dumps his waste in the soil without thinking, we would be creating a lot of problems for future generations... like pharma labs in india are dumping their toxic medicine waste in the rivers, creating superbacteria. Creating a really big hazard for the entire world population. It's not just cheap and easily replaceable labor, it's the lack of rules that make the location attractive.
Allthough on one hand i believe we should take the warning labels off everything and let stupidity work itself out of the genepool... There will be too much colleteral damage for the rest of us... not really an option in this field.
So if you have a pure product that can be used as plant fungicide or leaf curl stopper, does not say you can spray your refiners waste to do the same.
Surely you will have that exceptional situation where only copper is present, but mist of us have a mix of toxins to deal with.
And the fact that a company has lobbied enough for a product to be allowed in certain areas, does not mean its good for you or your health in the long run.
Making money and responsibility do not often go hand in hand.
Monsanto round up and their genetic crop theft lawyers e.g... pollen blowing with the wind nakes one a thief..
'Until proven, we will deny as long as profit allows...' is not a good responsible example..
I'm sure that even pure copper hydroxide is bad for plants... let alone if for consumption.
Martijn.
Martijn
Well-known member
Are you sure you mean Copper HYDROXIDE?? I found on this site: it speaks of oxychloride
As part of a treatment and prevention regime, copper oxychloride Demildex can be used for effective leaf curl prevention. Copper oxychloride Demildex is a systemic fungicide that has been proven to work against the fungus T. defrormans and is a preferable choice to avoid the buildup of excess copper in the soil.
The difference in chemistry can be in one letter. The difference to life can be huge..
Read and make sure you say what you say is true and checked.
As part of a treatment and prevention regime, copper oxychloride Demildex can be used for effective leaf curl prevention. Copper oxychloride Demildex is a systemic fungicide that has been proven to work against the fungus T. defrormans and is a preferable choice to avoid the buildup of excess copper in the soil.
The difference in chemistry can be in one letter. The difference to life can be huge..
Read and make sure you say what you say is true and checked.
Our soils are made up of metal salts, our fertilizers are also salts of metals, fungicides the list goes on, we use metals and salts and solutions in almost everything from our roofs to our baby's butt powders, go figure we use them as medicines, and our bodies have and function because of metals and even acids our bodies are composed, plants just as fish animals and even the small creatures of the earth depend on metals and salts or acids and alkalies for survival, some under certain limits is necessary for life and survival, while more of the same metal in another instance can mean the destruction or death of life,
I do not care to waste valuable time debating such a moot point, we deal with some very dangerous waste and it should be treated responsibly, to even consider dumping it in your yard, flushing it down a drain into someone else's drinking water, or doing anything but to study and use our metals, chemicals acids or alkalies as responsibly as we can.
Yea if we have an understanding we can grow our food in chemicals in and with metal compounds, and use them to treat our drinking water, but if we think we know what we are talking about doing (and do not) and we can also cause harm to ourselves our family and the nature around us, poisoning ourselves either slowly or faster.
Deal with metals chemicals paints petroleum products even your gardening products... And your toxic hazardous waste from your chemical processes as waste, dealing with it as safely and properly as you possibly can, continue to engage in your study the subject of dealing with waste, even if or after you believe you have a good understanding (possibly incompletely or falsely)of the subject, our survival as man depends on all of us, and for anyone suggesting of dumping waste from recovery or refining on their garden or where it can get into the worlds waters, better understand what they are spitting out of their mouth, before publishing their opinion on such a topic, supplying factual scientific information on it, for something that has such consequences for us all and all of our safety.
Yes, we all use chemicals every day to poison our earth in most anything we do, but we can also weigh and consider the cost and benefits or advancements from doing so, and do the best we can not poison ourselves further than we need to.
Deal with waste as waste stop spitting out what "ya think", but instead continue to study and do not stop studying to do the best you can to treat and deal with your hazardous waste from your chemical labs properly.
I do not care to waste valuable time debating such a moot point, we deal with some very dangerous waste and it should be treated responsibly, to even consider dumping it in your yard, flushing it down a drain into someone else's drinking water, or doing anything but to study and use our metals, chemicals acids or alkalies as responsibly as we can.
Yea if we have an understanding we can grow our food in chemicals in and with metal compounds, and use them to treat our drinking water, but if we think we know what we are talking about doing (and do not) and we can also cause harm to ourselves our family and the nature around us, poisoning ourselves either slowly or faster.
Deal with metals chemicals paints petroleum products even your gardening products... And your toxic hazardous waste from your chemical processes as waste, dealing with it as safely and properly as you possibly can, continue to engage in your study the subject of dealing with waste, even if or after you believe you have a good understanding (possibly incompletely or falsely)of the subject, our survival as man depends on all of us, and for anyone suggesting of dumping waste from recovery or refining on their garden or where it can get into the worlds waters, better understand what they are spitting out of their mouth, before publishing their opinion on such a topic, supplying factual scientific information on it, for something that has such consequences for us all and all of our safety.
Yes, we all use chemicals every day to poison our earth in most anything we do, but we can also weigh and consider the cost and benefits or advancements from doing so, and do the best we can not poison ourselves further than we need to.
Deal with waste as waste stop spitting out what "ya think", but instead continue to study and do not stop studying to do the best you can to treat and deal with your hazardous waste from your chemical labs properly.
I had mistakenly thought this thread was the same as a thread started over 10 years ago with the same name. In that thread, I posted, (one of my first posts if I remember correctly) a method for small refiners to deal with their waste.
This thread is more about an entirely different method of treating waste and there are some important differences which I think are important to point out here. In the original dealing with waste thread I gave a method for dropping metals out of solution as metals, and not as oxides (or any other salt form). From what I gather here we are talking about removing the metals as hydroxides by shifting the pH and taking advantage of the solubilities of different metals at different pH's. (Thank you Butcher for that useful graphic representation of what metals drop and re-dissolve over a range of pH.) In the end, they both get the majority of metals out of solution but that is where the similarities end.
Removing metals from solution by adjusting the pH is considered the classic method to treat waste and it is employed by large operations having the luxury of an analytical lab which can support the operation with analysis of the discharge. Generally the de-watered hydroxides are shipped off as Hazardous Waste and the water (if it meets discharge standards) is discharged to ground.
The catch is not all metal salts are dangerous or toxic in the ground as there are additives called chelating agents which can "lock up" the metals in a form from which they will not be dissolved once in a landfill. I have set up facilities with systems to drop all of the metals and chelate them and have the resultant solid waste be considered non hazardous. And have laboratory results to back that up.
But it isn't as simple as saying I chelated the metals so it isn't hazardous. The EPA has proposed and congress passed the Resource conservation recovery act way back in 1976. It lists specifically 8 metals that determine if a waste is hazardous or not. These metals are tested by a leaching process called TCLP (Toxicity Characteristic Leaching Procedure) which determines if any of these 8 metals will leak out into a sanitary landfill when exposed to the elements. If your solid waste fails this test the waste is considered hazardous. If you look at the RCRA 8 you will notice copper is missing. Well it's not a get out of jail free card because the process which will render these 8 metals insoluble works for copper as well so if you have the 8 RCRA metals present, and copper, and you pass on the 8, copper is a safe bet to be insoluble as well. The actual law has pages and pages of specifics to single out situations where this may not be true but generally speaking for refiners of precious metals it is true.
The original thread did not use hydroxides to drop the metal salts, it uses what we call cementation to drop the metals as metals from the solution. Dropping as a metal has the advantage that generally the metals, in a metallic state are much more insoluble than salts. The copper drops the precious metals which we are looking for, and then the iron drops everything beneath it on the electromotive series chart. What the iron drops is primarily copper with any tin, lead, cadmium, and a few others (check the list) as metals. These can be dried and melted, as a lot of refiners do, and sold as scrap. It may look like copper but don't expect top dollar. Then the iron is dropped as rust at a pH of about 3.5. If there was any zinc or chromium in solution it remains in the liquid. Often times it was so low in concentration that it met discharge standards of some states, but before discharging any liquid it is best to test it.
The reason for this long winded post is to help differentiate between "waste treated metal solids" as they are not all the same. To be safe, as I was then I "hobby" refined approximately a kilo a week of scrap jewelry. I collected the copper fraction and sun dried it and melted it. I settled and collected the "rust" and dried it into bricks which I admit I still have laying around, and I evaporated the water to yield a salt which I actually had TCLP tested and it came back as non hazardous so I sent it out with a clients non haz waste. Truth be told after about 18 months of doing this, it was all contained in 2 1/2 five gallon pails. I had the rust bricks tested too and they were non hazardous.
Please note none of this material was fed to my garden soil or rose bushes!
This thread is more about an entirely different method of treating waste and there are some important differences which I think are important to point out here. In the original dealing with waste thread I gave a method for dropping metals out of solution as metals, and not as oxides (or any other salt form). From what I gather here we are talking about removing the metals as hydroxides by shifting the pH and taking advantage of the solubilities of different metals at different pH's. (Thank you Butcher for that useful graphic representation of what metals drop and re-dissolve over a range of pH.) In the end, they both get the majority of metals out of solution but that is where the similarities end.
Removing metals from solution by adjusting the pH is considered the classic method to treat waste and it is employed by large operations having the luxury of an analytical lab which can support the operation with analysis of the discharge. Generally the de-watered hydroxides are shipped off as Hazardous Waste and the water (if it meets discharge standards) is discharged to ground.
The catch is not all metal salts are dangerous or toxic in the ground as there are additives called chelating agents which can "lock up" the metals in a form from which they will not be dissolved once in a landfill. I have set up facilities with systems to drop all of the metals and chelate them and have the resultant solid waste be considered non hazardous. And have laboratory results to back that up.
But it isn't as simple as saying I chelated the metals so it isn't hazardous. The EPA has proposed and congress passed the Resource conservation recovery act way back in 1976. It lists specifically 8 metals that determine if a waste is hazardous or not. These metals are tested by a leaching process called TCLP (Toxicity Characteristic Leaching Procedure) which determines if any of these 8 metals will leak out into a sanitary landfill when exposed to the elements. If your solid waste fails this test the waste is considered hazardous. If you look at the RCRA 8 you will notice copper is missing. Well it's not a get out of jail free card because the process which will render these 8 metals insoluble works for copper as well so if you have the 8 RCRA metals present, and copper, and you pass on the 8, copper is a safe bet to be insoluble as well. The actual law has pages and pages of specifics to single out situations where this may not be true but generally speaking for refiners of precious metals it is true.
The original thread did not use hydroxides to drop the metal salts, it uses what we call cementation to drop the metals as metals from the solution. Dropping as a metal has the advantage that generally the metals, in a metallic state are much more insoluble than salts. The copper drops the precious metals which we are looking for, and then the iron drops everything beneath it on the electromotive series chart. What the iron drops is primarily copper with any tin, lead, cadmium, and a few others (check the list) as metals. These can be dried and melted, as a lot of refiners do, and sold as scrap. It may look like copper but don't expect top dollar. Then the iron is dropped as rust at a pH of about 3.5. If there was any zinc or chromium in solution it remains in the liquid. Often times it was so low in concentration that it met discharge standards of some states, but before discharging any liquid it is best to test it.
The reason for this long winded post is to help differentiate between "waste treated metal solids" as they are not all the same. To be safe, as I was then I "hobby" refined approximately a kilo a week of scrap jewelry. I collected the copper fraction and sun dried it and melted it. I settled and collected the "rust" and dried it into bricks which I admit I still have laying around, and I evaporated the water to yield a salt which I actually had TCLP tested and it came back as non hazardous so I sent it out with a clients non haz waste. Truth be told after about 18 months of doing this, it was all contained in 2 1/2 five gallon pails. I had the rust bricks tested too and they were non hazardous.
Please note none of this material was fed to my garden soil or rose bushes!
Last edited:
MicheleM
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 4, 2020
- Messages
- 268
This is the link of the thread in which @4metals explains how dealing with waste Dealing with Waste. Thank you @4metals
