Do any of these components contain Palladium?

[JaMora]

A big ask from the community!

Requesting if anyone knows from their own recovery experiences if any of the pictured items contain palladium (mostly ceramic disk capacitors).

I’ve numbered items so palladium containing items can be easily be called out.

I know most of these will contain only Silver if anything.

I believe this will help a lot of us out but not if there is speculation or guessing

I'll be researching via google as well before processing anything.

Thanks again GRF community!

 

[MicheleM]

Hello! Maybe these videos could help







Increasing probability to find Pd Ag in items if they come from 1) very old equipment (1960-1995) 2) electronics for High-end applications, telecom, military or scientific , (until these days)

 

[jhop1994]

Lazersteve specifically had a comment about this to someone else and to summarize. Test them to find out, while the videos were educational about how to test. It clearly stated that these things vary from country to country.

 

[JaMora]

Thanks @MicheleM for referencing those videos - I've watched them a few times over. The electronics he's working with differ a bit from what I find in the US which makes it difficult to trust 100% but definitely a resource of knowledge - such as the blue and yellow ceramic capacitors as these are very common internationally (new ceramic disk capacitors that are shiny and colorful - these are almost always going to contain only silver, as he proves in his videos).
In the end, you have the best advice:
"Increasing probability to find Pd Ag in items if they come from 1) very old equipment (1960-1995) 2) electronics for High-end applications, telecom, military or scientific"

After researching via Google for a few months and reading around forums - I've concluded basically the same information. A few tips and tricks to identify which components will 'most likely' contain precocious metals (Pd) other than silver:

1. Newer ceramic disk capacitor components made after roughly 1993 - 1995 will most likely contain only silver due to the push for replacing palladium with base metals in manufacturing ceramic disk and multilayer capacitors internationally during those years.
In reference to disk capacitors, these newer components are pretty easy to identify simply from the manufacturing look - shiny, smooth, bright colors, etc. see example images #9, #11, #18, #19, #41, #42.
Now compare these components to example images #10, 13, 16, 27, 43. These are obviously older and are only found on older electronics.

2. Keep components found on old electronics - Obviously you just don't find red, faded green, or grey ceramic disk capacitors on newer electronics - duh! throw them in the Pd bucket.

3. Keep ceramic disk capacitors for Pd that look like they are one-off or not commonly found, even if found on newer electronics such as high-end technologies such as telecommunications, military, or medical. Some examples of these are example images #14, #16, #24, #28.

4. As for the commonly found tan/brownish ceramic disk capacitors, these are more difficult to categorize via appearance - more to follow on those but I've basically kept only those ones that are not black on the inside and have a lighter color - which this characteristic seems to correlate with the older tan/brown ceramic disk capacitors.

5. If it's white inside - keep those components for Pd content. A bit off topic from ceramic disk capacitors but I did include example images #7 and #8 - I've heard many people say this about the white ceramic - I really don't have any good sources to reference other than individuals with first-hand experience in refining. For example, images #7 and #8 have a white ceramic plate inside with what looks to be printed circuitry via silver or palladium (or alloy of both) on ceramic.

Btw, I'm not throwing anything in the trash haha, everything I don't keep goes back to the individual who I get all of these electronics from. Everything will be processed one way or another.

Funny thing is, I'm actually not even going after Pd, only Au. Really just keeping some of these components for when I master gold refining. Maybe one day I'll want a new challenge and I'll have a little bucket of components containing Pd stored up for that road.

Hope this thread helps others who cherry pick these components. Not much information out there on ceramic disk capacitors.

 

[orvi]

From the first sight, i cannot recognize any Pd ones on the photos. All apear modern, disc shape type caps, which could get you some silver, but i doubt Pd will be present. This is bit different technology than MLCCs. Many times using silver plated ceramics, many times just base metals. Old basic ceramic capacitors - not MLCCs - from 60-80s (eg TESLA or USSR/Bulgarian types) contain up to few % of silver some times, but generally less than 10g/kg. Too much labor, dealing with tin and quantities of nitric. For me not economical. But if you manage to get some few kilograms, smelting it with added lead could produce nice dore.

#24 look very intriguing... but it needs testing. If it is Pd type, nitric test could generally reveal it by just looking at the colour of the leaching solution (if Pd content is decent). More sensitive test is DMG. Even if you cannot see yellow precipitate, you can filter the solution through a filter paper and any very fine precipitate should be clearly visible.

 

[JaMora]

Thanks @orvi, I'm very familiar with all types of multi-layer capacitors. This post was more so focused on the disk capacitors.
The older ceramic disk capacitors definitely used Pd. The machinery that made the pre-1990s ceramic disk capacitors were engineered specifically for use with either silver or a palladium/silver alloy for the electrode coated on the ceramic dielectric. Base metal materials weren't used until the machinery was developed to do so and implemented around 1993 through 1995 for big industry. This goes for MLCCs as well from what I've learned. This said, I know most standard ceramic disk capacitors still only used silver alone. But the unique ones definitely used the Ag/Pd alloy.

Mid 1990s was the big shift towards using base metals for components used in standard electronics. Some manufactures didn't shift over until the late 1990s due to the cost of acquiring new manufacturing equipment - which is why a lot of automotive companies such as Mercedes or GM still had none-magnetic MLCCs in their automotive computers up until the late 1990s.

Haha yeah if you think # 24 is interesting, you should have seen the boards it came off of. It was an early 1980s automotive emissions computer from an automotive shop. The boards that #24 came off of were HP circuit boards completely gold traced. All together, from one computer, the gold foils filled a 120mm Buchner funnel filter similar to 3 kilograms of ram fingers! They looked a lot like this but without those newer ICs and instead, fully analog.

Thanks for the refining tips, but I'm only collecting Pd scrap as of now (or at least what I think is Pd). It will probably be a few years before I even think to begin any of those processes - maybe I'll contact you one day in the future with a bunch of questions haha jk. Lots of learning ahead.

 

[orvi]

Yes, you are right. I forgot the USSR red square ceramics, which used to contain PdPt. Generally i have experience with the classic type "brown ones" manufactured mainly by TESLA. These have relatively OK silver, but not economical for me.

Haha, yea, that´s the stuff! I once acquired like 20-30 cards from old PC´s, like 60-80´s. The thickness of plating on the fingers was just impressive. The fingers were apparently plated manually, not in an automated process.

The value of this type of stuff will only go up as the time pass. So if you have place where you can store it, good way to go.

It is pretty obvious if you have MLCC, crack one with pliers and if you see ceramic, celebration starts not only eastern-type electronics have good MLCCs. Also old western equipment have them.

PS: on the photo of board you send, there are small yellow components, looking like resistors. Crack one with pliers - I have seen quite a bit of these, and they used to be MLCCs too. Some plastic, some like resin dip packages
And also two good sized tantalums. But probably no solid-silver casing.

 

[MicheleM]

Thanks @orvi, I'm very familiar with all types of multi-layer capacitors. This post was more so focused on the disk capacitors.
The older ceramic disk capacitors definitely used Pd. The machinery that made the pre-1990s ceramic disk capacitors were engineered specifically for use with either silver or a palladium/silver alloy for the electrode coated on the ceramic dielectric. Base metal materials weren't used until the machinery was developed to do so and implemented around 1993 through 1995 for big industry. This goes for MLCCs as well from what I've learned. This said, I know most standard ceramic disk capacitors still only used silver alone. But the unique ones definitely used the Ag/Pd alloy.

Mid 1990s was the big shift towards using base metals for components used in standard electronics. Some manufactures didn't shift over until the late 1990s due to the cost of acquiring new manufacturing equipment - which is why a lot of automotive companies such as Mercedes or GM still had none-magnetic MLCCs in their automotive computers up until the late 1990s.

Haha yeah if you think # 24 is interesting, you should have seen the boards it came off of. It was an early 1980s automotive emissions computer from an automotive shop. The boards that #24 came off of were HP circuit boards completely gold traced. All together, from one computer, the gold foils filled a 120mm Buchner funnel filter similar to 3 kilograms of ram fingers! They looked a lot like this but without those newer ICs and instead, fully analog.
View attachment 49099
Thanks for the refining tips, but I'm only collecting Pd scrap as of now (or at least what I think is Pd). It will probably be a few years before I even think to begin any of those processes - maybe I'll contact you one day in the future with a bunch of questions haha jk. Lots of learning ahead.

Man, this circuit board is a masterpiece, I would append it to the wall like a painted picture.

 

[Geo]

Dusan is from Serbia and most of his electronics are old Soviet hardware. Very rich in precious metals compared to the USA equivalent components of the day. Most of the disc capacitors have no precious metal value using MgO for capacitance. There are the few but it's very hard to tell the good ones from the bad.

 

[orvi]

I am also from former Soviet country and sometimes also enjoy having possibility to acquire some very solid stuff. Plated fingers with so thick foils, that do not bend when you swirl the beaker etc...
Pins from sockets or connectors that rarely run under 10g/kg. You need to know every single component on the boards, just to not throw away some values. Old potentiometers with palladium plated parts, palladium plated traces on boards (if you have very old board with "silver" traces, there is high chance it´s actually palladium) and so on.

 

[kurtak]

Awesome thread guys !!!!

Plated fingers with so thick foils, that do not bend when you swirl the beaker etc...
Pins from sockets or connectors that rarely run under 10g/kg.

Yap - I have run across stuff like that (5 grams per pound - or 10 plus grams per kilo)

Talk about foils - it's quite a site to see foils so thick they actually look just like the pins "before" dissolving the base metal away

plating so thick the acid has a hard time working on (dissolving) the base metal even putting the acid on a simmer boil

It's plating dreams are made of

Kurt

 

[orvi]

Connector on photo above is called URS. Male part have pins running 9g/kg. Female part 14g/kg. These are quite common in old equipment here. It just underlines how ineffective the Soviet era manufacture was. It was rated for several amps, yet used as standardized connectors like everywhere, occupying so much space where completely unnecessary, used even for few mA connections... Completely wasteful, unnecessarily heavily plated. Third of the gold will be perfectly sufficient 26 pins in each piece. Female weighing around 0,4g, male 0,33g. Over 0,2g of gold per complete connector. In old "box" PCs, there were more than 20 pairs of them. Just speaking of connectors for cards... It impress me every day how this was even possible to manufacture in that quantity...
SNP connectors made in USSR were running up to 27g/kg... processing the unsoldered connectors with nitric acid was practically impossible. You need to go straight AR on them.
But I do not argue, better for me sadly, this type of material is exceedingly rare these days.
Not to mention cards like one on the picture below literally covered in palladium. Everywhere. Value of these pieces in triple digits just in today´s PM value.

 

[MicheleM]

27 g/Kg ??? Why such a insane plating? Perhaps they were suppose to survive the high radiation fluxes coming from nuclear blast

 

[orvi]

27 g/Kg ??? Why such a insane plating? Perhaps they were suppose to survive the high radiation fluxes coming from nuclear blast

Yup, very hard to understand why it was so thick maybe because Soviet headmasters said "we can, and we will have the thickest plating on Earth!" Engineer: "But, sir, it just add weight to our equipment and drain our country and citizens from resources..." "I say that again, triple the necessary plating, for the glory of our empire!" when I processed this type of material ordinarily, it came in big mixed batches of everything. Straight AR processing. I did not take pictures at that time, but if you know OwlTech, he has many many great videos about practically the same stuff. Thrilling to watch the gold drop from like 2 kilos of pins getting to the 6-7th spoon of SMB and solution still has yellow tinge to it ... wonderful times

 

[silver1]

Yup, very hard to understand why it was so thick maybe because Soviet headmasters said "we can, and we will have the thickest plating on Earth!" Engineer: "But, sir, it just add weight to our equipment and drain our country and citizens from resources..." "I say that again, triple the necessary plating, for the glory of our empire!" when I processed this type of material ordinarily, it came in big mixed batches of everything. Straight AR processing. I did not take pictures at that time, but if you know OwlTech, he has many many great videos about practically the same stuff. Thrilling to watch the gold drop from like 2 kilos of pins getting to the 6-7th spoon of SMB and solution still has yellow tinge to it ... wonderful times

Maybe you guys can read this then. A member posted this on the forum years ago whom was from Russia. I've had it in my library even though i can't read it.

 

[orvi]

Maybe you guys can read this then. A member posted this on the forum years ago whom was from Russia. I've had it in my library even though i can't read it.

Nice doc, altough I never stumbled across these USSR IC chips. I do not know how it is possible, through few years doing kilos of materials.
I do not speak russian, nor read in azbuka very well. My language is slavic, so it is distantly similar tho.
Important words you need to read this document:

золото = (zoloto) = gold
масса = (massa) = weight
изделия = (izdelija) = products/product
серебро = (serebro) = silver
палладий = (palladij) = palladium
металличеиской = (metalličeiskoj) = metallic
фракции = (frakcii) = fraction
соответствие с паспортными данными = (sotvectvie s pasportnymi dannymi) = accordance with data (very rough translation, im not sure)

Hope this lame "key words manual" could guide you through

 

[BlackLabel]

Hi,
Here are three more helpful words for this document:

платина = platinum
шт. = pc. (piece) / pcs. (pieces)
г / грамм = g / grams

 

[orvi]

Hi,
Here are three more helpful words for this document:

платина = platinum
шт. = pc. (piece) / pcs. (pieces)
г / грамм = g / grams

Yeah, forgot to add the basic stuff anyway... Hope to use this document some time in the future these components are not so common to stumble across :/

 

[BlackLabel]

Orvi,
Where are you from?
I'm from Germany.
I started trying learning Russian because there are a lot of interesting videos about refining from Russia. I think the Kyrillic writing is easy as long you can convert the letters (реактор = Reaktor in German | Ctoп = Stop).
Listening to the spoken language is hard.

Best regards from Germany.

 

[Owltech]

It's simplified BOM (bill of materials) regarding the type and quantity prescious metals used in different products