Dual Silver Cell Setup off One PC Power Supply

[niteliteone]

In this example of actual equipment being used by this member,
You can clearly see that the parallel circuit produces twice the work as the series circuit. :mrgreen:
W = watts = actual work done. A real and measurable number.
The parallel circuit clearly has twice the current flow to each cell.
The power supply is fully capable to handle the load safely. :idea: :shock: :?:

If this system were to be connected in series the resistance of each cell is additive.
So only half the current will flow.
Only half the work will be done.
Only half the growth will happen.

Again open to feedback. I can handle good or not. Always open to new knowledge.

Tom C

Harold,
or others that know, :shock:
Thank you for joining in on the conversation. I understand the electrical functions completely. The part I don’t understand for sure is the reactions of crystal growth with the various configurations.

I will not have enough silver (until end of the year) to do any comparative experiments. But for the sake of this thread a few more observations would help to clarify a few points.

By adding a second cell equal to the first but in parallel, I will have doubled my total output of fine thread silver crystals.

By adding a second cell equal to the first but in series, I will not increase the total output of silver crystals as with one cell, only they will be thicker due to the lower voltage and current of this configuration.

Assuming all these statements are correct can I summarize that:
By adding a second cell in parallel I will double my output of pure .999 silver crystals.
By adding a second cell in series I will “not” increase my output but only make thicker .999 silver crystals.

Hopefully I have written this clear enough. :shock:

Thanks for any input
Tom C.

 

[Oz]

It is worth remembering that the supposed intention is to purify silver. Changing the voltage “seen” by individual cells (whether in series or parallel) or your anode-cathode gap to solely increase grams per hour on the cathode will effect what impurities will also plate out on your cathode with your silver.

Do not lose sight of your goal, is it production mass or purity?

 

[niteliteone]

It is worth remembering that the supposed intention is to purify silver. Changing the voltage “seen” by individual cells (whether in series or parallel) or your anode-cathode gap to solely increase grams per hour on the cathode will effect what impurities will also plate out on your cathode with your silver.

Do not lose sight of your goal, is it production mass or purity?

Oz,
Actually I am wanting both. :shock:
But I do understand what you are saying about speed vs quality.
And the .999 minimum is a must.

My curiosity is with the 2 setups as described. I can see that slower growth can give a more pure crystal, but with the simple setup as described, wouldn't the slower growth also slow the output quantity in ounces with one setup versus the other.

At this point in time I am after consistant .999 purity and steady output. To add more quantity I am looking for the best way to do this. Thus the second cell addition.

Tom C.

 

[philddreamer]

Thanks for reminding us. It's easy to get deep into the investigating, & find "this or that" & get side tracked.

I used the voltage & amp's that GSP recommended & I had an assayer confim .999 purity. If one follows these, it should garanteee high purity.

I quote from GSP:
"The speed is proportional to the amperage. At most, each amp applied will both dissolve and deposit about 4 grams of silver per hour. However, for best results, the amps used should be limited to about 10 amps per gallon of solution and about .35 amps per square inch of anode surface area, only calculating the side of the anode facing the cathode. At that amperage (actually, current density), the voltage will fall between 3-4V in a well constructed cell.

For best purity, operate within those parameters. Also, the silver in solution shouldn't be allowed to drop below about 25g/l and the copper should be kept below about 80g/l. Chris"

I hope it helps.

Phil

 

[Oz]

Most of you may have noticed that I am lacking of time to write much here lately so I cannot write in great detail when posting.

Amperage is not all that critical as to the purity of the deposit you will obtain. Amperage is what does the work however being the main factor in the grams per amp hour you produce. The amperage your cell draws compared to the surface area of anode you have exposed to the cathode is a good indicator of your cell functioning properly, and you would not want to draw too many amps with too little electrolyte and heat your cell up.

What you really need to watch as to purity of the silver deposit vs. the contaminates your electrolyte contains is your voltage. Some of you were playing around with parameters that would affect voltage. Changing anode to cathode gap has the same affect as changing voltage due to the resistance of your electrolyte. It is the voltage that is key to what metals you will selectively deposit from your electrolyte at the cathode.

 

[element47]

I added a jumper wire and wired the cells in series earlier this afternoon.

Nice! I am glad this arrangement worked out well for you. Now we can talk about series-parallel. Argggh!!

No, I won't start.

This (TWO cells in series) is IMO a slightly superior setup, particularly if it produces the preferable size of crystals. Can we group-conclude that lower volts produce heavier, thicker crystals and fewer hair-thin crystals that have a greater tendency to short and thus have to be knocked off the cathode more often or require more supervision?

The limitation, as I see it, is that I don't think with 3.3 volts you can place any more than 2 cells in series; I don't have the hard numbers, but *most* chemical reactions require a volt and a fraction to drive them; if you divided up your 3.3 volts into three "allegedly" equal "backwards-batteries" (which is what you have) then the 1.1 volts might be right on the hairy edge of what would work.

 

[goldsilverpro]

C'mon guys, think!

I'm going to try and explain this one more time. My last post (reread it) was 100% correct, no matter what anyone says. I know this from actually doing this, in very large production, for about 45 years.

First of all, let's assume that you have a real plating rectifier. This is a one knob, one ammeter, one voltmeter, one fuse, rectifier - not one where you can set the voltage and amperage independently. With this rectifier, you can either set the voltage or the amperage. If you adjust the amperage you want on the ammeter, the voltage reading on the voltmeter adjusts automatically, according to the resistance in the system, according to Ohm's law. In series, the amperage you read on the ammeter is 100% applied to every component (cells) in the circuit. If the ammeter reads 10A and, whether there is 1 cell or 12 silver cells in series, each cell will have 10 amps applied to it and each amp in each cell will produce about 4g of silver per hour. However, the total voltage is divided, depending on the resistances in each cell

In a place I worked, we had 12 silver cells, to each of which we wanted to provide 200-250 amps. This was based on providing about 50A/sq.ft. of anode area. We knew that, at that current density, we would need from 3 to 4 volts per cell. We bought 4 ea, 12V, 250 amp rectifiers to supply all 12 cells. We rigged 3 cells, in series, to each rectifier. The result was that each of these 3 cells would draw about 4V (1/3 of 12) and 250A. The ammeter only read 250A across the 3 cells. The result was that, in series, with 3 cells, the silver production was triple what it would have been running only one cell, from the same rectifier, at 250A. No argument.

From these 4 rectifiers running 12 cells in series (3 per rectifier), we got about 6,000 oz every 24 hours. If we had only run one cell off each rectifier, we would have gotten only 2,000 oz/24 hours. If we had run all 12 cells, 3 on each rectifier, in parallel, we would have only gotten 2,000 oz/24 hours. In parallel, the only way we could have gotten 6,000 oz/24 hours was to have 4 ea, 4V (or, more), 750A rectifiers - much more expensive.

 

[niteliteone]

Thank you guy's,
Not sure if others have any questions on this subject, but you have shared the information I needed to understand the results on crystal production with the different setups. :mrgreen:

Now can you explain the ups and downs of a series-parallel setup :?:
Just kidding :shock: :lol:

Aside from Hoke's book is their any other good reference books or literature you would recommend on electrolytic processes?

Again thank's for the great feedback.
Oz, thank's for taking the time. I owe you.

Tom C.

 

[goldsilverpro]

Thank you guy's,
Not sure if others have any questions on this subject, but you have shared the information I needed to understand the results on crystal production with the different setups. :mrgreen:

Now can you explain the ups and downs of a series-parallel setup :?:
Just kidding :shock: :lol:

Aside from Hoke's book is their any other good reference books or literature you would recommend on electrolytic processes?

Again thank's for the great feedback.
Oz, thank's for taking the time. I owe you.

Tom C.

You still don't believe me, do you?

All you really need to know is that, in a series circuit, the current is constant (it's the same, everywhere) and the voltage is additive.

 

[niteliteone]

You still don't believe me, do you?

All you really need to know is that, in a series circuit, the current is constant (it's the same, everywhere) and the voltage is additive.

I do believe, without question.
I am wanting to learn and understand the overall process fully. I now understand some on how current density affects crystal structure.
How does a pulsed DC waveform affect the electron flow and what influence would that have on overall crystal structure. :shock: Just kidding
I would like to read material that could give me a hint on if that is even a posibility in electrolytic refining.

Just searching for more knowledge, that's all.

Tom C.

edit: forgot to add quote

 

[Oz]

All you really need to know is that, in a series circuit, the current is constant (it's the same, everywhere) and the voltage is additive.

I think some are confused by this thinking there is a free lunch to be had by getting triple the amps with 3 cells. Correct me if I am wrong here GSP but you are regulating the amperage with a plating rectifier. Since you are setting the amps, if 1 cell at a certain set amperage drew 3 volts, then 3 cells in series would need 9 volts to maintain the same amperage seen by each cell.

 

[goldsilverpro]

All you really need to know is that, in a series circuit, the current is constant (it's the same, everywhere) and the voltage is additive.

I think some are confused by this thinking there is a free lunch to be had by getting triple the amps with 3 cells. Correct me if I am wrong here GSP but you are regulating the amperage with a plating rectifier. Since you are setting the amps, if 1 cell at a certain set amperage drew 3 volts, then 3 cells in series would need 9 volts to maintain the same amperage seen by each cell.

Correct. There is no free lunch. The amps are the same but it takes triple the voltage. It takes triple the power = volts x amps.

 

[kadriver]

I have been running these two cells in series for about 36 hours now. The crystal formation is slow, but the crystals are big and fat.

I am using 3.3 volts from one PC power supply to run both cells.

In the parallel setup, I used two orange wires and two black wires. Each of the two cells got one orange and one black wire.

After connecting the cells in series, I used both orange wires connected to the anode of cell one, and both black wires connected to the cathode of cell two.

I then added a large jumper wire and connected the cathode from cell one to the anode in cell two.

I checked the voltage across both cells - one test lead on the anode of cell one, and the other on the cathode of cell two. The reading was 3.3 volts.

But after reading all this dialog about electrical theory posted above, I have become concerned and I have a question:

If I am driving both of these cells with 3.3 volts, then is it correct to conclude that each cell is only getting half that voltage? Only 1.65 volts to each cell?

If this conclusion is correct, then is there a risk of plating out other metals into my silver with this lower voltage?

I am beginning to think that I will just rig up another PC power supply and let each cell have its own power source. But then I will need to tend it more often as the crystals will be thinner and grow towards the anode basket alot faster.

The last thing I want to do is get other metals plating out in my silver!

Be aware---if you short your cell, pretty good chance you will have burned a hole in the filter basket (don't ask). That will require that all of the silver produced to be reprocessed to eliminate the contamination that is released.

When I shorted my cell earlier in the week, I completely disassembled the cell and made new anode baskets. I used the silver crystals that had grown in the cell to make anode bars.

I am not a big fan of re-using the anode filters even after they have been thoroughly cleaned. They are inexpensive and I get a measure of confidence knowing that the filters are brand new. I always double bag using two filter bags, one inside the other.

Any input would be greatly appreciated - kadriver

 

[Harold_V]

In this example of actual equipment being used by this member,
You can clearly see that the parallel circuit produces twice the work as the series circuit. :mrgreen:

Only if twice the number of amps are delivered. You would be limited by the power supply. If it's large enough, yes, you would double production.

W = watts = actual work done. A real and measurable number.

Not exactly a measure of how much work is done. Watts are calculated by multiplying voltage by amperage. While this is a far fetched example, if a cell required 120 volts to operate, and delivered five amps, that would be 600 watts. The amount of work done would be based on the five amps, not the wattage. In real life, you likely run at 3 volts. Lets use 3 volts for our example. At 3 volts, assuming you had the capability, you could push 200 amps (that's 600 watts). You'd be producing 40 times as much silver in that scenario.

The parallel circuit clearly has twice the current flow to each cell.
The power supply is fully capable to handle the load safely. :idea: :shock: :?:

If this system were to be connected in series the resistance of each cell is additive.
So only half the current will flow.
Only half the work will be done.
Only half the growth will happen.

Correct. It is for that reason one needs higher voltage applied, to overcome the added resistance. When the appropriate voltage is applied, amperage will have been doubled, as will the wattage measured. Series cells must have a variable voltage power supply in order to achieve efficient operation.

I will not have enough silver (until end of the year) to do any comparative experiments. But for the sake of this thread a few more observations would help to clarify a few points.

By adding a second cell equal to the first but in parallel, I will have doubled my total output of fine thread silver crystals.

Correct, assuming you have the amperage required.

By adding a second cell equal to the first but in series, I will not increase the total output of silver crystals as with one cell, only they will be thicker due to the lower voltage and current of this configuration.

Correct, at least I think so. How crystals develop is somewhat a mystery. Were it not, everyone could grow them large, and few understand the procedure. In my experience, cutting voltage (similar to adding cells in series) did create a more dense crystal, but my constant experience in running my cell dictated that fine crystals are the result of a high copper content. Keep the copper low, on non-existent, and you stand a better chance of growing dense crystals.

Assuming all these statements are correct can I summarize that:
By adding a second cell in parallel I will double my output of pure .999 silver crystals.

Again, assuming you have the amperage at your disposal, yes, that's correct. If you do not, you'll run the power supply at what amounts to a dead short, or very nearly so.

By adding a second cell in series I will “not” increase my output but only make thicker .999 silver crystals.

I hesitate to make a blanket statement that you will grow thicker crystals. You may, or you may not. Dunno. One thing you won't do is accomplish as much work, because you've added more resistance to the circuit, so you won't even deliver as much amperage as you did with a single cell. Raise the voltage and that all changes.

Hopefully I have written this clear enough. :shock:

Yep! Clear enough for me to understand your (well thought out) points.

Harold

 

[kadriver]

Here is a couple more question for the forum:

One cell all by itself runs fine on the 3.3 volt rail of the PC power supply.

Since I have wired two silver cells in series it seems (from the discussion above) that there won't be enough voltage from the 3.3 volt rail of the power supply to give the correct voltage to both cells. I am concerned that this lower voltage could result in other metals plating out with the silver.

Is this a justifiable concern?

Also, it would seem that I am going to need higher voltage to get the the proper amount of volts going to each of the two cells.

Could I just switch from the 3.3 volt - 28 amp rail to the 5 volt - 30 amp rail on the power supply?

Going by what was said earlier in the post, this would give me 2.5 volts to each cell (rather than 1.65 volts from the 3.3 volt rail). Not ideal, but closer to what it should be.

Am I on the right track with my thought process? My electrical knowlege is sorely deficient (but that can change, and must).

Finally, since I plan to greatly increase my silver production, should I invest in a nice variable power supply? Where can a good one be found?

I plan on building a large stainless steel silver cell in the near future so I would want to get a variable power supply that would power the larger stainless steel cell, as well as power a smaller cell.

I am so thankful that this forum exists - Noxx hit a home run when he came up with the idea to create it.

My refining activities have turned into a career of sorts. We are starting to depend on the income it produces.

Thanks to Noxx and all the other helpful members of the Gold Refining Forum.

kadriver

 

[niteliteone]

Good morning kadriver,
I didn’t mean to open a big can of concern on this subject. :shock:

I was just trying to get a little more in depth knowledge of the relationship of the different electrical configurations and what to expect as an outcome.

I don’t know the answer you need, but I would assume from reading here your current setup should be fine.
Tom C.

 

[niteliteone]

Thank You,
Harold, GSP, Oz, element47, Phil, kadriver,
Thank you all for the great replies. You have given me clarity to this part of the equation. I now know how to build my power supply. I will save other questions for when I have my system up and running and I start experimenting with different configurations.

I like the idea of growing the crystals and I want to try different things to alter crystal growth, hoping I can manipulate parameters of the cell in order to get particular formations (like a broad leaf fern for example).

I don’t like the feeling that I have to “hook up a cell and just have to accept” what comes out of it. So I am trying to understand all aspects of what goes on in the process so as to be able to predict with some certainty what to expect to happen.

I have searched the forum and found a lot of information on the subject, but I want more in depth information on the overall processes of electromotive refining (silver, gold, etc…). That was why I am asking for recommendations of reading material.

To Google books on the subject I got 1.18 million results and was hoping to get the list narrowed down to a few good and truly helpful books, not to reflect badly to the group. I fully plan on sharing all information I learn with all that want to know.

Tom C.

 

[Palladium]

Tom, i noticed you mentioned PWM in one of your post. Instead of controlling the amperage you could control the duration of the amperage. I to was wondering about the effects of such.

 

[kadriver]

I was just reviewing Lazersteve's video entitled "Silver Refining A to Z".

In the video, the second segment entitled "Electrolytic Silver Refining Cell" he states that the voltage should be kept at 1.5v to 3v DC to form the hardest crystals. The results I am experiencing comfirms this.

If my calculations are correct, and each cell is getting half the 3.3v DC from the power supply, then I am in range with 1.65v DC (3.3v divided by 2 = 1.65v).

The crystals are forming nicely and they are much bigger than I have ever seen them.

I have not touched the cell to knock down crystals since I wired the cells in series. The crystals grow outward (much fatter) instead of upward toward the anode basket.

kadriver

 

[niteliteone]

Tom, i noticed you mentioned PWM in one of your post. Instead of controlling the amperage you could control the duration of the amperage. I to was wondering about the effects of such.

Thank you palladium,
I’m glad I had mentioned the pulsed DC waveform. :shock: I put it out as a joke but to hear it might actually be relative to some extent or not, now leaves me with something else to experiment with.
I will try to design a variable pulse modulation circuit into my power supply. So far the parameters I have are 0.5 to 5 volt, 0 to 50 amp and now variable pulse modulation. I’m thinking 0 to 400 Hz ?

Since this is off topic of the thread I’ll stop before I cause confusion for other readers. I’ll follow up on this in a new thread after I start processing material after New Year’s hangover. :twisted:

Thanks for all the help guys.
Tom C.