Dual Silver Cell Setup off One PC Power Supply

[niteliteone]

The crystals are forming nicely and they are much bigger than I have ever seen them.

I have not touched the cell to knock down crystals since I wired the cells in series. The crystals grow outward (much fatter) instead of upward toward the anode basket.

kadriver

Pictures.
I want to see pictures of your latest babies. :shock:

Kidding,
But I would like to see the change caused by the series configuration.
Are you getting the increased output in quantity that you were looking for or is it to early to know.

Tom C.

 

[philddreamer]

I was just about to ask the same question.

With my half galon cell I had a deposition of 1.2 T ounces or 37.32g/hr. I was expecting 28g/hr. , 25% more crystal deposition than expected!

It would be interesting to know how much you get in your dual cells.

Thanks!

Phil

 

[niteliteone]

Phil,
Do you have a thread on your cell I can look at :?:

Thanks
Tom C.

 

[philddreamer]

Yes indeed Tom,

Board Index - SILVER - "Half Gallon Silver Cell"

Phil

 

[metatp]

I like the idea of growing the crystals and I want to try different things to alter crystal growth, hoping I can manipulate parameters of the cell in order to get particular formations (like a broad leaf fern for example).

Do you mean like these ones? I run the cell the same way all the time, but one batch made a bunch of fan like ones, but once I put new anodes in there, they changed. I also made some thick spear/sword like ones. I thought I know how it happened, but when I tried to reproduce, I could not. they look a lot nicer than the picture.

 

[niteliteone]

Phil,
Thank you.
Sorry it didn't click in my head that that was your post you were talking about. I have it printed along with a few others and they are what got me on this tangent to begin with.

Metatp
You got it. The one in the upper left of the photo. I am wanting to learn some control of the growth so as to look like ferns or even bonsi trees.

I can't wait to get my cell up and running. You guys are great. 8)

Tom C.

 

[kadriver]

Here is a photo of the crystals in the cell.

Note the thinner crystals at the bottom - these are how the crystals looked when I had the cells running parallel.

The top crystal formations are after converting from parallel curcuit to series curciut.

I have not have to touch either cell to knock down crystal growth since I started running in series on Sat 12 Nov 2011. For reference, today is Monday 14 Nov 2011.

The anodes are being consumed much slower though. But I am not worried about this for now. Like Oz pointed out earlier, purity is the goal.

kadriver

 

[kadriver]

metatp:

Your silver crystals are gorgeous. Do you keep these for show? They look pretty neat.

kadriver

 

[metatp]

metatp:

Your silver crystals are gorgeous. Do you keep these for show? They look pretty neat.

kadriver

So far, I keep all them. I have not made bars yet (because I like the crystals). I have a small box of the ones I like the most. See the following link from some other crystal for member of this forum.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=1765

 

[butcher]

I hope I can explain what I am thinking:

Lets make the math simple useing simple circuits and cells.
Some Ohm’s law first:
E=Volts
I=Amps
R=Ohm’s
Now for formula of these:
E/I=R
E/R=I
IxR=E

And more:
P=Watts
I=Amps
E=Volts

Some more laws:
In a series circuit with two resistors (cells) the current through the circuit (both resistors) is the same, but the voltage divides (proportional to the resistors in circuit)

In a parallel circuit the voltage is the same (on each cell or resistor) but the current divides (between the cells depending on their resistance).

(remember our silver cells resistances will change depending on conditions)

Ok now lets look at some simple circuits.
First a parallel circuit running one volt, and two cells resistance of one ohm, here the total circuit resistance is R1xR2/R1+R2 (formula for two resistors in parallel), so in our circuit our total resistance is 0.5 Ohm’s, and since from ohms law E/R=I then: 1volt/0.5 OHM=2AMP, so our total current for this circuit is 2 amps, and since we are running these cells in parallel and the (current divides in parallel circuits, and voltage is the same) also our resistance of both cells are equal 1 ohm each (not so in real world silver cells resistance would change on conditions of cells and that would also imbalance our cells and circuit read what I commented in earlier post) our cells would have one amp current through each cell (until conditions changed).

Now lets look at two series circuits:
This first circuit will use one volt, and two cells (resistors) in series, each cell resistance one ohm, here since we are running in series the cells resistance adds so: 1 ohm + 1 ohm = 2 ohm so our circuits total resistance is two ohms, now: 1 volt / 2 ohm = 0.5 amps so our each cell only getting the current (that runs through both cells in series) is one half an amp.

Wait we want more current on our cells what do we do? Keep reading this if you followed me so far and do not have a spinning head.

This second series circuit will still use the same one-ohm cells but we will raise our voltage from our power supply to two volts, so:
Our total resistance is still 2 ohms (cells in series one ohm each), according to ohms law:
2 volts/2 ohms=1 amp so now we have each cell getting one amp of current. and the voltage on each cell is one volt (or that’s their voltage drop)(remember voltage divides in series circuit).

So we see here by changing the voltage we provide from our power supply we see we can achieve the same current (if we desire) that we had when we ran these silver cells in parallel.

In parallel operations of cells the resistances will change in each cell so that one cell will start to Hog all the current, the other cell will starve.

In series operation of cells the current flows through both cells so you will not have that trouble.

My opinion run them in series, set up the parameters needed.

Now grab onto something so your head will quit spinning, I hope I made this understandable.

 

[Harold_V]

I will try to design a variable pulse modulation circuit into my power supply. So far the parameters I have are 0.5 to 5 volt, 0 to 50 amp and now variable pulse modulation. I’m thinking 0 to 400 Hz ?

It may be in Hoke's book, but I recall reading about a DC power supply for parting gold---that had an AC current superimposed on top of the DC current. It was reputed to help shed the buildup of silver chloride when it was a problem. The concept, apparently, has merit.

Harold

 

[goldsilverpro]

I will try to design a variable pulse modulation circuit into my power supply. So far the parameters I have are 0.5 to 5 volt, 0 to 50 amp and now variable pulse modulation. I’m thinking 0 to 400 Hz ?

It may be in Hoke's book, but I recall reading about a DC power supply for parting gold---that had an AC current superimposed on top of the DC current. It was reputed to help shed the buildup of silver chloride when it was a problem. The concept, apparently, has merit.

Harold

The superimposed AC was first covered in one of the Wohlwill cell patents. The original Wohlwill patents (625863, 625864) were made by Emil Wohlwill. This one (961924) was made by Heinrich Wohlwill, about 11 years later. Most probably, a relative. The purpose of the AC was to dislodge AgCl from the surface of the gold anodes, when the Ag in the alloy exceeded 6%. He also mentions using pulsed DC, instead, for the same purpose.
https://encrypted.google.com/patents?id=mM5bAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=emil+wohlwill&hl=en&ei=TWzCTvbLD-j0sQKHytC8BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAg&lr=all#v=onepage&q=emil%20wohlwill&f=false

In the definitive book, "Gold, Recovery, Properties, and Applications", by E.M. Wise, Van Nostrand, 1964, Wise says that the rms value for the AC should only slightly exceed the DC. He must be talking about the rms of the current and not the voltage. He also says that a silver content in the anodes as high as 50%, will work using the AC. Quite a claim!
http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?ac=sl&st=sl&ref=bf_s2_a5_t1_12&qi=BVf6G.GP9914V5YABSxLRD9AQNA_4137797828_1:455:1558&bq=author%3Dedmund%2520m%2520wise%26title%3Dgold%2E%2520recovery%252C%2520properties%2520and%2520applications

 

[kadriver]

Wait we want more current on our cells what do we do? Keep reading this if you followed me so far and do not have a spinning head.

This second series circuit will still use the same one-ohm cells but we will raise our voltage from our power supply to two volts, so:
Our total resistance is still 2 ohms (cells in series one ohm each), according to ohms law:
2 volts/2 ohms=1 amp so now we have each cell getting one amp of current. and the voltage on each cell is one volt (or that’s their voltage drop)(remember voltage divides in series circuit).

So we see here by changing the voltage we provide from our power supply we see we can achieve the same current (if we desire) that we had when we ran these silver cells in parallel.

butcher:

Thank you. I am a complete mess when it comes to electrical theory - simply because I have never taken time to study it.

In my Navy career, I attended many schools for my trade. I had an instructor one time that would roll his eyes and let out sighs if students asked questions about the material he was teaching.

I was never the recipient of this behavior, but it was painful to watch when it happened.

The result was this; you did not ask this instructor any questions because you might get an offensive gesture and many valid questions were never asked.

I don't blame the instructor - he simply did not know that his behavior was offensive - he could'nt help it.

I am still new to all this and I am still trying to figure things out. I am only an advanced beginner.

My main concern is purity of the metal. I just want it to be the best it can be. Speed is not as important, but if I can make changes that will increase speed without effecting quality, then I would be willing to make those changes.

Sorry for the rant - here is a question I have for you or anyone else on the forum:

With respect to my two, one liter silver cells, wired in series:

I am currently using the 3.3 volt - 28 amp rail from my PC power supply. Crystal growth is slow, but they are much thicker than before when I ran in parallel (back then they were thin and needed to be knocked down frequently).

After reading your explaination, which was very easy to understand, I am thinking of changing the amount of voltage going to my series-wired cells.

I want to remove the 3.3 volt - 28 amp rail (orange wire) coming from the PC power supply and replace it the 5 volt - 30 amp rail (red wire).

According to your explaination above, this will halve the voltage (2.5 volts to each cell) and increase the amps - which should increase the speed that the crystals grow.

The voltage will be within the parameters for the strongest crystal growth (according to lazersteve 1.5v to 3v) and the amps will have increased promoting faster crystal growth - all of this without affecting quality of the silver metal!!!

This sounds like a no-brainer. But I don't want to make a mistake. I must ask these questions - is my thinking in this matter correct? Should I switch the voltage on my series-wired two cell setup from 3.3-28a to 5v-30a coming from the PC power supply? Can I expect increased crystal growth without suffering loss of purity of the silver metal?

If I have to knock down the crystals more frequently after making the above mentioned change, then so be it.

Thanks - kadriver

 

[element47]

Kadriver, previously, you were using 3.3 volts across one cell. You liked the speed but disliked the stringy crystals. Now, in series, you are using 3.3 volts across two cells in series, roughly dividing the voltage in half. Each cell thus "sees" 1.65 volts and you are liking the crystal formation (= fat, chunky) better.

If you now shift to using the 5 volt output of the supply and keep them in series, each cell should see about 2.5 volts, grow silver a little faster than it does now but not quite as fast as when you were using 3.3 volts across a single cell. So as far as I can tell, without having the ability to precisely control voltage because of the nature of your power supply, that would be just about the ideal situation, the good compromise between speed and non-stringiness. Obviously: Try it! I think you'll like it.

As a point of curiosity, I would be interested in the current consumption of your rig. I think you mentioned that the current measuring part of your meter was not working. BE CAREFUL when you measure current, that is the way people blow up meters.

 

[kadriver]

As a point of curiosity, I would be interested in the current consumption of your rig. I think you mentioned that the current measuring part of your meter was not working. BE CAREFUL when you measure current, that is the way people blow up meters.

Hello:

My meter is Wavetek handheld and only goes to 10 amps.

It has two fuses: 1) 500 milliamp and 1) 10 amp

They were both blown. I had a 500 milliamp and a 9 amp so I put these in the meter.

I set the meter for 10 amp DC, then checked amps acrosss one cell at a time (I did not know you could do this). with the voltage at 3.3v DC from the PC power supply, the reading on cell one was 1.2 amps and the reading on cell two was 0.9 amps.

I then changed the power going to the cells from 3.3v DC to 5v DC from the PC power supply.

I checked the volts coming from the PC power supply with no load and got a reading of 5.01v DC.

I then connected the newly installed 5v DC leads to the cells that are still wired in series. The voltage check with the cells in operation was 4.81v DC.

I rechecked the amps on each cell indivdually and this time, with 5v DC going to the cells, I got 1.8 amps on cell one, and 1.3 amps going to cell two.

Cell one has more crystals than cell two by a slight margin.

I have learned much from this exercise.

I feel confident that this new 5v DC configuration will produce the results I am looking for.

Here is what I have learned so far:

ohm's law (volts X ohms = amps) or any combination thereof.

Crystal growth is best and thickest with cell voltage at 1.5 to 3 volts DC. The crystals grow outward and fat rather than upward towards the anode basket (eventually they will reach the anode basket, but over a longer period of time).

Increasing amperage (current flow) will increase crystal growth.

Voltage above 3v DC, but below 4v DC will grow good crystals, but they are thinner and grow upwards towards the anode basket quickly.

Voltages over 4 volts may tend to plate out other metals, if present as contamination, in the electrolyte onto the cathode in the cell.

3.3 volts DC wired in series across two 1 liter cells will divide the voltage in half giving 1.65 volts to each cell - within range of the optimal 1.5v DC to 3v DC parameter but crystal growth will be slow.

5 volts DC wired in series across two 1 liter cells will divide the voltage in half giving 2.5 volts to each cell - also within range of the optimla 1.5v DC to 3v DC parameter and crystal growth will be a little faster.

There is an advantage using the 5v DC rail from a PC power supply when wiring two 1 liter cells in series. The crystal growth will be a little faster but the crystals will still be thicker and less likely to short the cell by reaching the anode basket to quickly.

This is the way to go! Thanks to the forum for giving me some more knowlege today.

kadriver

 

[element47]

I set the meter for 10 amp DC, then checked amps acrosss one cell at a time (I did not know you could do this). with the voltage at 3.3v DC from the PC power supply, the reading on cell one was 1.2 amps and the reading on cell two was 0.9 amps.

You are doing beautifully on this, I must say.

But I am going to needle you some on your two different amp readings and your use of the word "across" versus "through". I *think* you are placing your meter probes incorrectly. The same amount of amps HAS TO flow through the ENTIRE (series) circuit. So it should not matter *where* you measure it. By the same token, you shouldn't get those different readings on cell #1 vs cell #2...UNLESS, that is, you have turned your meter to "amps" but are not placing the probes correctly.

 

[butcher]

Kadriver, I can describe an electrical circuit, but not silver cell crystal growth, that I am learning from you and GSP.

You may already know this, but others may not.

Make sure when measuring amperage the wire leads from your meter are plugged into the proper “jack” (many meters it is a different jack than the volts or ohms jack) not just the dial to select scale.

Never read voltage with your meter (being set up to read amps), this is why the fuses were blown; your meter is basically a dead short in amperage scale. Most all of that current goes through a shunt in the meter (a chunk of copper wire with certain resistance) with only a very small percentage of the current going through the meter movement or meter circuit.

Hooking it up to voltage (with meter set to read amps) all this voltage is going through this small piece of wire (shunt) wire with almost no resistance, basically a dead short in your hand, the meter can blow before the fuse has time to burn up.

I have had a meter blow up in my face when reading 480volts (my meter in amp scale), for this reason I always move my meters back to read A/c volt before turning it off.

As element47, was showing you, you need your amp meter in series with the circuit, to read amps. Amps go through the meter (internal shunt wire in parallel with meter movement), so your ammeter will act similar to a wire in your circuit; again I hope this is not confusing you.

The voltage is read across the cell (no need to disconnect any wires), when you read voltage across the cell, this reading is voltage drop of the cell (how much of the total voltage being supplied to your circuit is being used by this cell).

It is a good idea to put meters in your circuit to help you monitor what is happening, radio shack use to have some panel meters at a fair price'

A series light bulb in your circuit will also help (like a 12 volt truck tail lamp), it can limit current, if your cells short out protecting your power supply (you can also choose a lamp size to deliver only a maximum wanted current for your circuit), and also give you a visual indicator as to what is happening with amperage, and your cells, I have posted on this several times (it is an old trouble shooting trick) a dead short and light is full on, no light no current, dim light low current flow.

element47, already showed this in his drawing but sometimes when we hear it said in a different way it clicks in our head.

 

[kadriver]

I get it. I must turn off the power supply and disconnect the positive lead going to the anode of cell one.

Then I must add the meter to the circuit to get a true reading of actual amps running throught the entire wiring setup.

To add the meter, I connect the lead coming from the power supply to the red lead of my meter (that is set to measure amps - not volts). And then connect the black lead of my meter to the anode of cell one - just like in your drawing above.

My meter has three possible lead configurations. If I have the leads set to measure amps and try to set the dial to measure volts it beeps loudly letting me know I am about to make an error.

I did measure two different amp readings across each of the cells - but I now believe that these were probably not true amps going through the entire cell setup.

I place the test leads on the anode and cathode of cell one, and then did the same on cell two. Each reading was different but not true readings - sound correct.

I am starting to get the hang of this - thanks for the help.

kadriver

 

[kadriver]

element47 - your drawing is the perfect aid and gives new meaning to the phrase, "a picture is worth a thousand words".

That must have taken some time to produce.

element47, already showed this in his drawing but sometimes when we hear it said in a different way it clicks in our head.

This information has probably been given several times to me - even in this post. But you are right - it seems that for some reason it just flys right over the top of my head, and then, for some other unexplained reason, it sticks and sinks in.

Thank you for your patience (the ability to wait, or to continue doing something despite difficulties, or to suffer without complaining or becoming annoyed) and understanding.

kadriver

 

[kadriver]

Hello:

The dual series wired silver cell setup ran from fri 11 Nov to about 9am on Thur 24 Nov.

I harvested 1824 grams of silver crystals from the cells yesterday 24 Nov 2011.

I was able to produce 10 each - 5 troy ounce silver bars.

Plus I saved 250 grams of fine silver crystals for new electrolyte for my dual cell setup.

I actually use about 120 grams of silver crystals to make the electrolyte for each 1 liter cell instead of just 100 grams. I figure that thru dilution the electrolyte will diminish over time. The extra silver will compensate for this depletion.

The electrolyte in the operational cells looks good - light pale green in color, so I just restarted the cells using the same electrolyte.

I am posting a picture of the cells for all to see - they look OK to me, but I value the opinion of this forum, any input would be appreciated.

I will probably put in new electrolyte the next time I harvest regardless of the electrolyte condition just for good measure.

I have the bars for sale - one day auction - on Ebay ending around 7:30pm on Friday 25 Nov 2011. To view do an Ebay search for "hand poured silver bars".

The dual cell setup is working perfectly - I am getting twice as much at harvest time!

Thanks - kadriver