Estimating Harvest question

[archerytech1]

I'm sure it's on the forum somewhere and wonder if someone could point me towards it.

Looking for how to learn to calculate rough estimates on gold harvests per sq inch of plate. I know there are many variables as well as plate thickness but looking for some general tools.
For instance I currently have currently 1982 sq inches of solid plated material. It's rf boards that are almost completely covered on both sides. 82 of them at 3X4 inches each that never had components on them. They are 98-99% covered.


I wouldn't mind seeing your guess at harvest estimates but would like to learn how to do it myself if you could explain your formula/s or show me where to look to see some so I can learn.
Like I said, I'm sure it's here on the forum somewhere but I can't find it yet. Still new here. Thanks

 

[yar]

http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=809

Start with this. It took me 30 seconds to find using the google search box.

 

[archerytech1]

http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=809

Start with this. It took me 30 seconds to find using the google search box.

Thank you. Can you tell me exactly what word or words you typed in the search box? Being new to this and not knowing all of the terms you guys use sometimes coming up with the correct key words may not be that easy.

Thanks again.

 

[yar]

I appreciate your apprehension and wanting to get things right, but you have to start helping yourself. I use the google search on the top left side all the time. You may have to go through a few posts to find what you are looking for but it is all here.
I am starting to see a pattern in your posts and if I can see it the more seasoned people here can see it. Trust me when I say an attitude of entitlement does not go far here. Maybe slow down on wanting to process material and speed up on studying and reading and finding your way around the forum. Not being harsh, just want to save you from being labeled as one who only wants answers without first showing you tried to help yourself.

 

[archerytech1]

http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=809

Start with this. It took me 30 seconds to find using the google search box.

Thanks again Yar! I bookmarked that one. Very cool calculations. I came up with $730+ as my estimate using Silverpros method at class 0. That's quite more than I actually hope for but we will see soon enough.

 

[patnor1011]

http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=809

Start with this. It took me 30 seconds to find using the google search box.

Thanks again Yar! I bookmarked that one. Very cool calculations. I came up with $730+ as my estimate using Silverpros method at class 0. That's quite more than I actually hope for but we will see soon enough.

You would never know unless you process a sample, any figure is hypothetical.

 

[archerytech1]

I appreciate your apprehension and wanting to get things right, but you have to start helping yourself. I use the google search on the top left side all the time. You may have to go through a few posts to find what you are looking for but it is all here.
I am starting to see a pattern in your posts and if I can see it the more seasoned people here can see it. Trust me when I say an attitude of entitlement does not go far here. Maybe slow down on wanting to process material and speed up on studying and reading and finding your way around the forum. Not being harsh, just want to save you from being labeled as one who only wants answers without first showing you tried to help yourself.

I didn't mean to sound entitled at all. All I asked for is a little direction where I could find the information to read and learn to help myself.
After I'm guessing around an hour of trying to sift through posts to find it myself I came to the conclusion that I just didn't know the correct word to type into the search box to get anywhere. Entitled is no part of how I feel. I'm very gracious for every reply or response. I do not feel that I am owed a response or answers. After typing Harvest/Gold Harvest/Calculate and sooo many other key words in and starting at the top and then starting at the bottom (older) posts I could not find what I tried myself to find so I asked other forum members if they knew where I can find it or if they could share how they calculate so I can do it myself.
In my post I clearly asked for help finding the info so I could further help myself.

The only other post I have I took the information given which was "put everything down and read and study more" and felt gracious for that. I have done exactly what this forum asks members to do as far as I can tell. I read Hokes book. An older copy I found online before I joined. Now I'm in the process of reading the new one recommended in the beginning of this forum for info that was left out of the old Hoke book. So far I'm not into that one too far yet but I see some of the new stuff and lines drawn through some old safety hazards. Now I ran my refining plans by some members and asked if my steps looked ok to them. I never asked anyone to teach me the steps in detail one at a time. I'm not looking for an online class. I asked if my steps sounded ok. And thank god I did because there was a big fault in my plan. I didn't ask over and over how to fix it but instead took the guidance that was given to figure it out on my own.

I totally understand you guys here that know what your doing getting upset by people wanting you all to teach them everything and I mean everything but sometimes it's not "entitlement," sometimes we just don't know what is so simple to you. I want to learn, I want to listen, I want to teach myself.

I'm not sure how I gave the impression that anyone here owes me anything. As a matter of fact I have plainly said in this forum that I look forward to the day that I am able to competently help other newbies with simple tasks after they of coarse try to figure it out themselves.

Again, I get it. you guys get bothered by many people looking for their own private tutor for everything. But it's not right to put someone in that crowd until they deserve it and I don't. I want to learn and I am not above reading all I can to assist but I need to find what to read. Couldn't so asked. I guess in a library if you can't find the book your looking for you just go home without asking someone who works there how to use the dewy? I asked for the right keyword/s for the google search. Again, so I could read it and teach myself.

 

[archerytech1]

http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=809

Start with this. It took me 30 seconds to find using the google search box.

Thanks again Yar! I bookmarked that one. Very cool calculations. I came up with $730+ as my estimate using Silverpros method at class 0. That's quite more than I actually hope for but we will see soon enough.

You would never know unless you process a sample, any figure is hypothetical.

Right right. Yea, thats actually what I was looking for is a hypothetical I guess lol. I'll share what it really came out to once I learn better care and storage of lye water. I need that before I run the batch. The backside of the boards have masks to be removed.

 

[Pantherlikher]

Hello archerytech1 and welcome...
You joined this month huh...and are already working on what you do not know?\
I typed "Yield" into the search box... you could try what type of boards you search for...Yield...board...etc. Usually simple key words show you the most.
Your latest post:
"Right right. Yea, thats actually what I was looking for is a hypothetical I guess lol. I'll share what it really came out to once I learn better care and storage of lye water. I need that before I run the batch. The backside of the boards have masks to be removed.:
Proves the point...
"League of Legends" is what I found when searching for "lol" Is that a league of legendary refiners, hunters, miners or what???
"once I learn better care and storage of lye water"??? What about using lye and how dangerous it really is...and safe disposal..not storage.
"I need that before I run the batch." So less then a month here and you are thinking of running a batch?...Really?

Aside from that...
Welcome to the forum.
Please take some time to read and study the forum beginning with the welcome screen. It will direct you from there and along the way, you will learn things you have not even imagined yet. Like those boards just might be a collectors item which might be worth more selling as is.

By time... meaning a tad more then a couple few days....More like 100 hours of pure reading and wandering through posts new and old.
As well as the recommended book reads.

The comments about you being entitled and etc. are meant for people that for people like you...and me..and everyone else just beginning...
who dive in with their ideas and dreams of riches and only see the things they have to process to get said riches.

This blinds them from actually learning what needs to be learned. Like how much money can actually be made on a specific item.
Including what's involved in getting said riches, and the dangers.

First thing learned is the less you pay for anything, the less likely you will lose the first few times until you experience it.

All this is why "we" whom have been here for more then a month... have this "attitude" toward "newbies"

Good luck and hope you find what you want and by all means, show us as we like shiny things...

B.S.

 

[yar]

Let me clarify for you, avoid an attitude of entitlement. Avoid getting into the habit of every time you have a question you come here and ask it. I was in your shoes at one time and understand that you want to process your material and get to the gold. But you have to understand what you are doing first. Not every reaction goes according to plan and that is where reading and studying will help you. When you have that " oh s#%t " momment your study will kick in and you will be able to figure things out. Sometimes when those moments happen you are not going to be able to log on and ask how do i fix this or what went wrong? Because leaving your problem to ask how to fix it may be long enough to cause more problems.

It is usually the small details that get overlooked that cause problems. Just today I was explaining about how I was using a precipitant in a new way and forgot that I missed a step that would remove silver and lead from solution. Another member corrected me. In my excitement of a new process I overlooked a very basic step that would have left me with impure gold had I proceded.

Take your time, read and study. Your gold will be there waiting for you. I wish you good luck and as said before show your results, we like shiny things here.

 

[archerytech1]

Hello archerytech1 and welcome...
You joined this month huh...and are already working on what you do not know?\
I typed "Yield" into the search box... you could try what type of boards you search for...Yield...board...etc. Usually simple key words show you the most.
Your latest post:
"Right right. Yea, thats actually what I was looking for is a hypothetical I guess lol. I'll share what it really came out to once I learn better care and storage of lye water. I need that before I run the batch. The backside of the boards have masks to be removed.:
Proves the point...
"League of Legends" is what I found when searching for "lol" Is that a league of legendary refiners, hunters, miners or what???
"once I learn better care and storage of lye water"??? What about using lye and how dangerous it really is...and safe disposal..not storage.
"I need that before I run the batch." So less then a month here and you are thinking of running a batch?...Really?

Aside from that...
Welcome to the forum.
Please take some time to read and study the forum beginning with the welcome screen. It will direct you from there and along the way, you will learn things you have not even imagined yet. Like those boards just might be a collectors item which might be worth more selling as is.

By time... meaning a tad more then a couple few days....More like 100 hours of pure reading and wandering through posts new and old.
As well as the recommended book reads.

The comments about you being entitled and etc. are meant for people that for people like you...and me..and everyone else just beginning...
who dive in with their ideas and dreams of riches and only see the things they have to process to get said riches.

This blinds them from actually learning what needs to be learned. Like how much money can actually be made on a specific item.
Including what's involved in getting said riches, and the dangers.

First thing learned is the less you pay for anything, the less likely you will lose the first few times until you experience it.

All this is why "we" whom have been here for more then a month... have this "attitude" toward "newbies"

Good luck and hope you find what you want and by all means, show us as we like shiny things...

B.S.

Hello Pantherlikher

Thanks, for the record by "care and storage of lye water" Usage is a part of the care. I don't want to use it until I know how. I learned quickly that Lye isn't one to just go playing with. And storage yes, so it can be used later. And I now know I want to learn to neutralize it or acids with it before disposal. That's why I haven't ran my boards. I lack some knowledge especially with Lye.

I have ran a few small runs of fingers before I joined here. They turned out quite successful and I did learn a few no no's along the way. Like using too much N202 puts the gold into solution. Oops. I do have a few little nuggets to show for it and they are far too pretty to sell.

I'm not doing this for the money. I don't care what the gold is worth. The $700 figure was then divided by $38 to see what it may weigh. My gold won't be sold. It will be put where I can look at it. I have no interest in selling any of it. If I wanted to get rich there are probably lots of easier ways in fields I know a little better.
I'm reading all I can on Lye right now so when I do run the boards I will be comfortable with the Lye.

Thanks again

 

[archerytech1]

Let me clarify for you, avoid an attitude of entitlement. Avoid getting into the habit of every time you have a question you come here and ask it. I was in your shoes at one time and understand that you want to process your material and get to the gold. But you have to understand what you are doing first. Not every reaction goes according to plan and that is where reading and studying will help you. When you have that " oh s#%t " momment your study will kick in and you will be able to figure things out. Sometimes when those moments happen you are not going to be able to log on and ask how do i fix this or what went wrong? Because leaving your problem to ask how to fix it may be long enough to cause more problems.

It is usually the small details that get overlooked that cause problems. Just today I was explaining about how I was using a precipitant in a new way and forgot that I missed a step that would remove silver and lead from solution. Another member corrected me. In my excitement of a new process I overlooked a very basic step that would have left me with impure gold had I proceded.

Take your time, read and study. Your gold will be there waiting for you. I wish you good luck and as said before show your results, we like shiny things here.

I hear you Yar. I really do. And yes, you are correct, I can't wait to show you guys a shiny nugget. And I also get what you are saying about things not going as planned all of the time. I could rush into the run and lose the gold and have no idea where it's at or how to recover it. That does scare me! I just don't want to be labeled as that "entitled" type. That's never been me or what I'm about. Trust me, I'm not a guy who like to read and I've done more reading in the last few weeks than in the last few years put together. I'm doing my best to slow my roll.
For now, I keep reading lol.

 

[goldsilverpro]

http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=809

Start with this. It took me 30 seconds to find using the google search box.

Thanks again Yar! I bookmarked that one. Very cool calculations. I came up with $730+ as my estimate using Silverpros method at class 0. That's quite more than I actually hope for but we will see soon enough.

You erred when you assumed that the gold thickness was 30 micro". In truth, it is most likely in the range of 5 micro". In general, there are 3 main thickness variations on a circuit board - ~5, ~30, and ~45 micro". Here's the breakdown.

(1) Plane areas. 4-8 micro". An example of "Plane" areas are large gold plated areas covering a circuit card. The gold's main purpose is to provide some corrosion protection and that only takes about 5 micro". There may be some shielding going on also.
(2) Wear areas. 25-35 micro" (usually closer to 30). These are areas that might be connected and disconnected 100's of times during the life of the instrument. The best examples are connector pins and circuit board fingers.
(3) Heated areas. 45-55 micro". On some all gold plated parts, such as old side-braze IC packages, the chip is brazed to the base at about 700F and the lid is brazed to the seal ring at about 560F. The entire package is heated. If the gold were much thinner, there would be a tendency for the gold to discolor during the heating. Also, there could be brazing problems if it were thinner.

There is also a miscellaneous category. Sometimes you'll find small metallic components that are completely gold-plated, mainly for good corrosion protection. Most thickness callouts I've seen on these ranged from about 10-17 micro".

There are exceptions to these, especially on some military stuff (higher) or super lo-grade electronics (lower).

My latest formulas for plated objects:

GOLD
$/in2 = gold thickness in inches X 10.17 X Spot gold price in $/TO
grams of gold/in2 = gold thickness in inches X 316.3

SILVER
$/in2 = silver thickness in inches X 5.52 X Spot silver price in $/TO
grams of silver/in2 = silver thickness in inches X 171.7

I might note that silver plating usually ranges from 50-200 micro" (.000050"-.000200")

I have learned that it's usually better to figure things on the low side, especially when I'm buying or refining. Selling can be another story.

 

[Shark]

It took me a year to produce my first button, all of 6.4 grams. At the price then it was worth $264 at 96% of spot, which is what I got for it. Now I wish I had kept it, but the thing that stands out in my mind the most was something the buyer said, his first words were "Now, that is 24 karat gold". Since he is from a family of custom jewelry makers, I took it as a compliment. He never even tested it, just weighed it and made the offer. He even went into detail on how he arrived at the amount, in a method I knew came out right. For my first time selling my recovered gold, his statement was more satisfying to me than the money was. It was the only time I have sold any, I may sell some later, may not. A year of hard work, for $264. I broke down all kinds of equipment, computers, and anything else I could for a year to get at that small button, and was .... PROUD of it. I still am. What makes me feel even better is the things I learned over the course of that year. Some from individuals, some from books and files posted by others, and some through research on my own. What I am getting at is this, the time spent looking for good information is time well spent. The reading will work it's way into your head eventually, and you will have a better idea of how to ask or search better. If it takes longer than expected to get to the materials you have on hand while researching, it will leave time here and there to gather up your next lot of materials. Some days that year seems like it was a collage education, other days I feel like I failed kindergarten. The term your looking for has been given, "yield" will offer a different set of parameters to your search quantity questions. It sounds funny now, but my lack of asking to many questions in the beginning has forced me to look at it a bit differently. Somewhat more successfully and satisfying for me, although at a slower pace. You have the boards so you have the gold, no worry about time. Just keep digging for that "golden" information.

"I have ran a few small runs of fingers before I joined here. They turned out quite successful and I did learn a few no no's along the way. Like using too much N202 puts the gold into solution. Oops. I do have a few little nuggets to show for it and they are far too pretty to sell."


By the way, did you mean to say H2O2 above, instead of N2O2? It is all just part of the learning curve.

Edited for missing words

 

[eastky]

On plated items you should search for surface area calculations. Samuel-a has gold calculators on his site. goldnscrap

 

[patnor1011]

Chris already beat me, what I wanted to say about your calculation is that you cant apply it to plating which is covered by solder mask or shielding plating. This is so thin you can rub it off with finger or pencil rubber. This type of plating goes off in AP in a form if powder you will not see foils like when you process fingers - contact areas.
Your result then may be 6 times lower than your calculation. That is why I suggested testing.

 

[philddreamer]

My latest formulas:
GOLD
(1) $/in2 = gold thickness in inches X 10.17 X Spot gold price in $/TO
(1a) grams of gold/in2 = gold thickness in inches X 316.3

SILVER
(2) $/in2 = silver thickness in inches X 5.5 X Spot silver price in $/TO
(2a) grams of silver/in2 = silver thickness in inches X 171

I might note that silver plating usually ranges from 50-200 micro" (.000050"-.000200")

I have learned that it's usually better to figure things on the low side, especially when I'm buying or refining. Selling can be another story.

Thank you Chris for the update on your formula!

I use it every time I'm buying this type of material.
When I receive the material, I run an 8 ouces test to know WHAT to expect for a total yield. It works every time!

Thanks GRF! 8)
Phil

 

[archerytech1]

It took me a year to produce my first button, all of 6.4 grams. At the price then it was worth $264 at 96% of spot, which is what I got for it. Now I wish I had kept it, but the thing that stands out in my mind the most was something the buyer said, his first words were "Now, that is 24 karat gold". Since he is from a family of custom jewelry makers, I took it as a compliment. He never even tested it, just weighed it and made the offer. He even went into detail on how he arrived at the amount, in a method I knew came out right. For my first time selling my recovered gold, his statement was more satisfying to me than the money was. It was the only time I have sold any, I may sell some later, may not. A year of hard work, for $264. I broke down all kinds of equipment, computers, and anything else I could for a year to get at that small button, and was .... PROUD of it. I still am. What makes me feel even better is the things I learned over the course of that year. Some from individuals, some from books and files posted by others, and some through research on my own. What I am getting at is this, the time spent looking for good information is time well spent. The reading will work it's way into your head eventually, and you will have a better idea of how to ask or search better. If it takes longer than expected to get to the materials you have on hand while researching, it will leave time here and there to gather up your next lot of materials. Some days that year seems like it was a collage education, other days I feel like I failed kindergarten. The term your looking for has been given, "yield" will offer a different set of parameters to your search quantity questions. It sounds funny now, but my lack of asking to many questions in the beginning has forced me to look at it a bit differently. Somewhat more successfully and satisfying for me, although at a slower pace. You have the boards so you have the gold, no worry about time. Just keep digging for that "golden" information.

"I have ran a few small runs of fingers before I joined here. They turned out quite successful and I did learn a few no no's along the way. Like using too much N202 puts the gold into solution. Oops. I do have a few little nuggets to show for it and they are far too pretty to sell."


By the way, did you mean to say H2O2 above, instead of N2O2? It is all just part of the learning curve.

Edited for missing words

Thank you for that Shark! Yes, I did mean H202 lol. Can't believe I did that. I understand what you meant about that jewlers words being worth more than the money as that's how I would have felt too. You guys are all correct about slowing down and learning I know you are. I will be doing just that for a while. Still reading the newer revised version of the Hoke book after reading the old copy before I joined. Reading sooo many of these posts and also bought a dvd from Lazersteve to get started on too. It really is great to be here and see all of this. And I really appreciate all of your help, all of you guys and girls here.

 

[archerytech1]

Chris already beat me, what I wanted to say about your calculation is that you cant apply it to plating which is covered by solder mask or shielding plating. This is so thin you can rub it off with finger or pencil rubber. This type of plating goes off in AP in a form if powder you will not see foils like when you process fingers - contact areas.
Your result then may be 6 times lower than your calculation. That is why I suggested testing.

Very good patnor. As soon as I finish Hoke for the 2nd time I will spend more time looking at formulas then as it's not quite as simple as I thought either. I understand why running a sample is important. Actually far more so than trying to calculate it first. Well the good thing is I won't be doing this for the money so much as just to see the size of the nugget 8) . So if the calculations are way off it's still ok by me as long as I get to look at it in the end!

Thank you

 

[archerytech1]

http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=809

Start with this. It took me 30 seconds to find using the google search box.

Thanks again Yar! I bookmarked that one. Very cool calculations. I came up with $730+ as my estimate using Silverpros method at class 0. That's quite more than I actually hope for but we will see soon enough.

You erred when you assumed that the gold thickness was 30 micro". In truth, it is most likely in the range of 5 micro". In general, there are 3 main thickness variations on a circuit board - ~5, ~30, and ~45 micro". Here's the breakdown.

(1) Plane areas. 4-8 micro". An example of "Plane" areas are large gold plated areas covering a circuit card. The gold's main purpose is to provide some corrosion protection and that only takes about 5 micro". There may be some shielding going on also.
(2) Wear areas. 25-35 micro" (usually closer to 30). These are areas that might be connected and disconnected 100's of times during the life of the instrument. The best examples are connector pins and circuit board fingers.
(3) Heated areas. 45-55 micro". On some all gold plated parts, such as old side-braze IC packages, the chip is brazed to the base at about 700F and the lid is brazed to the seal ring at about 560F. The entire package is heated. If the gold were much thinner, there would be a tendency for the gold to discolor during the heating. Also, there could be brazing problems if it were thinner.

There is also a miscellaneous category. Sometimes you'll find small metallic components that are completely gold-plated, mainly for good corrosion protection. Most thickness callouts I've seen on these ranged from about 10-17 micro".

There are exceptions to these, especially on some military stuff (higher) or super lo-grade electronics (lower).

Forgive me if the whole "quote" thing don't work correctly when I submit this but I'm working on it via the "Including Quotes In Your Posts" post from FrugalRefiner.

Anyways
Thank you, I will be experimenting with harvest estimates soon enough. From other posts here I'm figuring I better stick more to learning more of the chemistry basics for now to save from something bad happening but you can bet I will be looking at your answer many many times in the near future when I am running material so I can learn to not lose money while buying scrap for my future nugget collection or to help in calculating chem usage I suppose. Thank you guys. You are a good bunch. This site was like finding a gold mine really. I know I'm brand new but I know huge amounts of knowledge when I see it.

Hey what do you know, I got the whole quote thing to work! Preview button is priceless.