Ethics/Morality of misrepresenting eBay auctions

[nickvc]

eeTHer can I say that the margins quoted for jewellery stores might well be the case for large groups but many independents work on much smaller margins. Where I am in the jewellery quarter in Birmingham UK we are lucky to work on 100% + tax and usually have to be at least 1/2 that to achieve a sale, but there are over 100 retailers in a small area. The real problems are the overheads such as rent, insurance, alarms, rates, credit card charges, staff and power costs and we have weeks when we take no money but the bills keep coming. All this is without the cost of having stock which can be a large amount of money and which can be there for years not months and the perception that because the item is 18k it costs 75% of spot is far from true, I'm paying around $55 a gram to buy 18k mounts then the costs to mount and set them plus the stones plus losses, there's no easy money in whatever trade you engage in at the moment and retailing jewellery is perhaps the worst as its a pure luxury for most not a necessity like food or fuel.
The real embarrassment is when customers come in to sell items purchased from a large group,I tend to tell them what I would have sold the item for and send them elsewhere, an item they paid €550 for I would have sold for $240 at full price and there's 20% tax on that, take off my profit and it actually cost $100 to buy so if it's just scrap there's say 30% of manufacturing costs so that's $70 at full scrap value, doesn't look too good!
So I guess the value of anything is that which people are willing to pay and fancy stores, posh boxes and branding all adds perceived value to those that buy and I bet the big stores do not over worry about their high margins.

 

[Irons2]

The best experience I had with a Jeweler is when my ex and I went to buy her an engagement ring. The owner asked us what size Diamond we were looking for, so I told him 1/4 Carat. He takes out a large envelope and dumps about 200 stones on the counter. "Here, pick the one you like. I just came back from Antwerp." We then picked out a setting. The whole cost was just over $100 with Tax. I thought it was a good deal at the time. The ex, not so much.

 

[eeTHr]

nick and Irons---

Those are good examples of customers getting value for their money.

Department stores and famous name stores have higher markups, but at least their gold is karat marked.

But the "gold" bars, as mentioned above, and other junk sold as "gold," are in an entirely different category!

so describe the item, not what it used to be.

 

[cnbarr]

nick and Irons---

so describe the item, not what it used to be.

eeTHr,

I'm not sure why you have a statement with a quote from me that I never said???

I was reading this thread:

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=15083

I would like to draw this discussion out into a new thread that is not specifically talking about any individual person. Strictly the subject matter.

These are my thoughts on the subject. These are based on the gold drops that are seen on eBay now that consist of maybe 1% total gold.

Regardless if you are "following the rules" posting auctions that misrepresent the item in any fashion is wrong.

If someone posts a bar of metal that might possibly be 1% gold, then they post a buy it now price for a lot more than the worth of that 1% of gold, I think it is fairly clear that the person intends to mislead whoever it is they are trying to sell to.

If someone posts titles like "gold drop" yet it's only 1% gold I think that's very misleading as well. Maybe it should be called a copper drop with gold?

Matter of fact, so far as I am concerned, if someone posts a gold drop that is 1% gold, regardless if they are following eBay rules or not, regardless if the person is only posting things that are true, it still does not make the post right. It is still morally wrong.

Scott

Outright I am fearful to debate you Scott, you are quite wise with your words, but I feel you are quite wrong (in my opinion, which is subjective to personal opinion). What you are saying is no different then saying a jeweler is wrong to sell his item because he is selling it far over the gold value. Let's say a ring that has 4g of gold, the jeweler sells for $1200, but there is only $200 worth of gold and maybe $150 worth of diamonds, for a total of $350. Then the jeweler adds a 50% markup for his labor, that still set the value at $525, but he sells the ring at $1200 and no one questions it's perceived value.

But if it is ebay all of the sudden it is an issue of moral efficacy, material, time, and labor, but honestly what is the real difference between the two ebay seller and the jeweler?

Not to contest your integrity, but there is a reason that some products have a higher markup percentage than others, no matter what they are.

It generally goes like this: If a product stays "on the shelf," or in inventory a very short time, like bread in a grocery store, it has a "fast turnover rate." That results in the store being able to recover their cost, plus profit, and reinvest it rapidly. With a fast turnover product, you can mulitply your investment many times in a given period. In one month, for example, you will make more sales of each item, and thus end up with a greater amount of profit than if you only sold one of the items per month. So on fast turnover items, the markup percentage is low.

Now imagine a jewelry store. They can have lots of money tied up in inventory. You can see jewelry pieces sitting in their display cases for months before someone buys them. Jewelry is generally slow turnover. The markup percentage on jewelry is generally 300 to 500%. (That's why jewelry stores can have so many "half off" sales---they get a faster turnover during the "sale" period, and still sell at a profit.)

An average markup for any dry goods item is 100%, and this is called a "keystone" markup. Faster selling items can be priced below keystone, and slower selling items are usually above keystone markup. You can sell many items for below keystone, or just one or two "high end" products above keystone, and still "make the rent" just the same. Grocery stores usually run about an 18% markup for food products, because they are mostly very fast turnover.

That is the actual logic behind differing markup percentages for different types of products.

Industry standard markups are not just arbitrary or whimsical. There is some sense and fairness to them.

I just wanted to inject some perspective into what is being discussed, for what it's worth.

I'm perfectly fine with where my integrity stands, like I said in this post and the other post that SBrown started this thread about, I'm NOT alright with theses scenarios on ebay and I would never do such myself.

I was simply arguing the fact that what is wrong to one person is not necessarily wrong to another, ethics and values are subject to the individual. If someone feels they have represented themselves appropriately as well as their product on ebay, who is too say they are wrong, we all have free will. I don't have to go to the grocery store and spend $4 a gallon on milk when I can buy a cow, and get what most would perceive as free milk, but I still do.

I think because we our all a member of a "gold refining forum" many can't see past the spot price of gold. Who cares if it is gold, milk, vegetables, or a television, if someone spends time, money, and labor to make a product they should be free to charge what they want within competitive reason. Just like many large refiners minting stamped bullion, it's smooth, shiny, and has a logo stamped in it and they sell it for 5, 10, 15, 20% above spot price, is it right? Who is any one of us to say it's wrong, we live in America, if you don't like the price don't buy it, I know I won't. Just because it is gold related doesn't mean it should be classified any differently then any other product.

I'll say itagain I don't personally agree with alot of what happens on ebay, but again I have free will and I don't have to purchase anything off ebay, or anywhere else, unless I want too! Everybody else is free to make the same choice in all there purchases in life, it shouldn't matter if it is gold or blue jeans.

eeTHr, I don't mean to sound brash, but I feel like you were trying to "call me out", I don't take offense so I hope you don't either?

Chris

Edit: for clarification

 

[Geo]

theres a new member that just started a thread. i wont mention names. he is asking how to process some scrap he bought on Ebay. guess what the scrap is. thats right, buttons made from melted pins. i hated to be the one to tell him that he bought 100 grams of worthless crap and he didnt say what he paid for it but after reading my reply im sure he wishes he hadnt bought it now. i see a rash of this type of activity in the future. he first started about shor, and he bought this scrap, and now he wants to know how to refine it.this is one person and im sure he represents many more that may never find the forum. how do you save people from themselves? theres a new gold rush. its on Ebay in the form of melted pins.

 

[patnor1011]

When I went out to buy new TV I spent few days on net checking different brands and types. I rang few friends and ask them for advice and how they are happy with their purchase. Then I make up my mind and went out and spent 1400 euros.
I do have that TV till today and it works fine.
In about a month after purchase it went from 1400 to less than thousand.What I mean is that what Scott see as unethical or not moral is all around us in our daily life. It would be wrong to pick on someone selling gold in whatever form and disregard all unethical "sales" on eBay.
We talk about "gold drops" as something outrageous and yet we see (or sell) pentium pro going for 2-3 times of it value. Yes, someone told that maybe people overpaying for Pro just invest in gold for future - maybe people buying so called drops just do the same. Many of us were selling lots of CPU which were of smaller yield and just by tossing in one-two Pro or gold caps we just increased price well over real value as buyer usually did not bother with math to get real value of every one chip - they just see the cream intentionally mixed inside.
What is ethical or moral on selling Viagr* for what they sell it, when everyone know what is inside and it was surprise discovery while R&D of something totally different? New iPhone produced in China and sold for 100 times of production cost? Thousands of examples.

So buyer will be honest if he would say that his bar contain 0.546% of gold? How about the most popular US soda you drink everyday and will never know what it contain. Yet you will buy and drink it every day without questioning producers integrity. Not to mention difference in cost of producing it and selling price.
How can we question seller of those gold drops saying that he did not put in anything compare to jeweller who invest labor, time, etc.... Maybe gold drops producer invested in much more from his point of view, maybe he spent days trying to melt it or pour it to different shapes, maybe his overhead is way bigger than overhead of some jeweller...

No, I do not take sides in this. I just think we waste time talking about stuff like this. Every purchase goes to how informed buyer is and I do not want to bear responsibility to educate every Jack&Joe who want to spend their money. I never saw business owner who will tell his customer that shop in next village sells the same thing much cheaper that he should go there.

I just think that I am informed so I will not buy so called gold drop but if somebody does, it is his decision or investment. I am enough experienced that I decided for myself that selling them is not worth dealing with problems which may and will come with some customers either.

 

[butcher]

I think it all boils down to honesty, not how much you make for a product.

 

[patnor1011]

Maybe "gold drops" seller just factored in his overhead. To say he did not put in anything is wrong. He collected and hauled in computers, dismantled them, cut or desolder pins out, melted them, polished resulting bar....
If somebody pay for that it is his choice.
Even if we would know exact gold composition, as informed buyers we will not buy that for spot as we will argue that there will be cost of refining...

When I buy I want item cheap to have profit, when I sell I want profit too - where is that fine line? Who has authority to draw it?

Educate yourself I would say. In my country we have saying, something like "two times measure, one time cut"

 

[Palladium]

I've been staying out the discussion. I agree with the mentality that if the buyer's willing to pay it you should sell it at that price. My thing is with the deception part. Yes their is deception! Those so called gold bars have been tampered with to change their appearance and that's where the deception comes into play. They say they list everything all truthful and tell you what the contents are so you know and how it was made. They left out one process. The one where they plate the material to take on the appearance of something that it isn't. Just the fact of that alone shows deception and bad intentions. Your telling me someone melted something that's 99% copper and that it came out looking like a gold bar without any surface oxidation of anything? I don't think so. So why didn't they include that in their statement of the facts and truth they use to justify the selling of something? They included everything but that part, Why?

 

[patnor1011]

They do Ralph.
They state that they polished or used metal brush to give them "bars" that finish and appearance. And that is a red flag for me. If I see that something was polished or brushed to look better and it is not old fence from back garden, then I steer away from that. :lol:
Demand and supply. If people will get better educated there will be no demand and supply will dry out. But education is everyone's responsibility or choice.

 

[patnor1011]

On a side note bars like those are perfect investment for security reasons. Remember that thread about Honey pot for thieves and burglars? I would put few in small box with some other worthless junk jewelry and let burglar to refine them. :mrgreen:

 

[ericrm]

this post has giving me an idea

i will post an item on ebay will those rules: i will not cheat on the picture(i will show the item the way it is),i will not lie about the item(i will not use word to trick poeple like : buy this solid gold bracelet (when solid mean the construction and not the metal composition.....i think you understand) , i will not educate(steve already sell dvd for that)
we will see the result in a week

sounds good? your comment will be apreciated

 

[joem]

I did that and the item did not sell.

 

[ericrm]

im pretty sure it will sell ,but let wait and see 8)

 

[etack]

On a side note bars like those are perfect investment for security reasons. Remember that thread about Honey pot for thieves and burglars? I would put few in small box with some other worthless junk jewelry and let burglar to refine them. :mrgreen:

That is great will do. I have some "gold" casting grain and "silver" too I think some 100TOZ bars are in order .:lol:

I think I might cast a bunch to sell. Call it honey pot minting. As honey pot gold not real gold

Eric

 

[ericrm]

etack that is pure genius, your will sell your fake gold bar made of real gold plated pin so ,all the person who buy melted plated pins will still buy them , but nobody on the forum will think crap about you because your selling them as a objet of its own ,a protection device agains thief.....

 

[patnor1011]

this post has giving me an idea

i will post an item on ebay will those rules: i will not cheat on the picture(i will show the item the way it is),i will not lie about the item(i will not use word to trick poeple like : buy this solid gold bracelet (when solid mean the construction and not the metal composition.....i think you understand) , i will not educate(steve already sell dvd for that)
we will see the result in a week

sounds good? your comment will be apreciated

No need to crucify guy who sell those "gold drops"
I mean he is doing the same as countless of others selling other stuff with shady or misleading description like 1gr (grain) of gold, different plated bars and coins where they forget to mention that they are just plated, gold flakes which are not gold at all, it appears that military is being scrapped out as every second pin for sale is mil spec, etc....

I mean I am not going to be Savior for every lost soul over on eBay. Maybe some of this buyers need to be burned to start understand that not everything which is shiny is gold. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

 

[etack]

etack that is pure genius, your will sell your fake gold bar made of real gold plated pin so ,all the person who buy melted plated pins will still buy them , but nobody on the forum will think crap about you because your selling them as a objet of its own ,a protection device agains thief.....

No I have casting grain that I bought called Nu gold and some nickel silver. (Bought it thinking it was gold and silver)The add will say does not contain GOLD.

I enjoy sleeping at night and have had enough bad Karma to last many more years. :lol:

Eric

 

[ericrm]

etack in that case, do you mind if i take that brilliant idea and make it mine?

 

[ericrm]

this post has giving me an idea

i will post an item on ebay will those rules: i will not cheat on the picture(i will show the item the way it is),i will not lie about the item(i will not use word to trick poeple like : buy this solid gold bracelet (when solid mean the construction and not the metal composition.....i think you understand) , i will not educate(steve already sell dvd for that)
we will see the result in a week

sounds good? your comment will be apreciated

No need to crucify guy who sell those "gold drops"
I mean he is doing the same as countless of others selling other stuff with shady or misleading description like 1gr (grain) of gold, different plated bars and coins where they forget to mention that they are just plated, gold flakes which are not gold at all, it appears that military is being scrapped out as every second pin for sale is mil spec, etc....

I mean I am not going to be Savior for every lost soul over on eBay. Maybe some of this buyers need to be burned to start understand that not everything which is shiny is gold. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

im not crucifing him, im realy turn on by that idea, if honestly find it genius... poeple of the forum kind of get "unreal" sometime.