First "Real" Attempt

[grfphil]

Hi Everyone,

First I'd like to say I have read Hoke only once through after attempting several months ago to just jump in. I learned I needed to learn more first. I admit I still need to learn more big time. Anyways, I finally decided to try another better educated try. I did the copper ii chloride method on a piece of gold filled scrap. I rinsed it 3 times with HCL and this is what I have. It crumbles to the touch so I left the chunks alone. This was a result of a fourc day process on a small gold filled with copper as the base metal. 12K. I used 3 links from the bracelet only. After the 3 rinses there wasn't any change so I felt this was worthy of posting as a real first attempt. Like I said, I have got a long way to go in terms of learning. I haven't posted in a long time. Please let me know if this is a typical result of gold before dissolving the gold in HCL/bleach, and any other comments are appreciated. Please disregard that green dot. That has been removed. It was a piece of debre that blew in there when showing my wife.

I used enough HCL to cover the material by about a centimeter. The scrap I used was about 0.4 grams. The entire piece weighs 26.74 grams. Wanted to test a small piece first.

I cut it into small nuggets before the process so it will get to the base metal easier. It crumbles on touch now. Thanks.

EDIT: The weight of 0.4 grams was wrong when I posted this. I was meaning to update it earlier. After I weighed the piece without the part I cut it makes the correct weight of this 3.8 grams from the start. Do not know what it weighs now. (2013.05.07)

 

[Lino1406]

Is this the result from copper, gold and HCl alone?

 

[grfphil]

Hi Lino,

Thanks for replying. It was copper and gold. I used 2 to 1 Hcl peroxide until there was no more change, a day each since it was so small. Then just hcl to rinse it, even let it sit for a few days during the final rinse. Then used dilluted water and saved the solution. This was the result. Thanks.

 

[grfphil]

My goal was to basically get rid of the copper and leave the gold. I felt this was an easy experiment for a trial run. I must admit the container is all scratched up and used so it could affect the way this looks.

 

[grfphil]

I'd like to add another detail about how I found it was copper and gold. I first bought this thinking it could be a older 12k solid piece based on the stamp. It didn't say G.F. or 1/20 for example. I then took it to get tested after I did my own acid tests I bought online. We both said it was copper. I then decided to cut it in half and used a magnified glass and saw the copper base metal. Hope this helps. I have seen other results but the green hue is puzzling me, some of the gold that looks copper did not dissolve either. It looks this way because of the flash. In real life this morning it looked gold, black, and brown mixed. Thanks

 

[grfphil]

Hi All,

Just an update. I realize slowly that there was still copper in material and the solution didn't get to it. I'm running it again and starting to get better. I'm learning.

 

[grfphil]

I now feel like I have to inquart the material. Never did this before, but it seems to have pacified based on some things I've read here.

I think this was my first mistake since it was gold filled. I thought by cutting it into small bits it would work, but it only goes so far. I also know AP isn't for gold filled based on this forum, but it's the only accessible items I can get my hands on. Theoretically it should dissolve the copper underneath, however it is not penetrating so I ran to Home Depot and purchased a torch, fire brick, and a crucible from the local hobby shop yesterday. If I'm making a bigger mess or going in the right direction, please feel free to let me know.

I hope this helps others in my shape by learning from my mishaps and achievements on this first trial run. I will post some more pictures before and after I melt it into a few flakes. Here is a picture of it currently after HCL and slowly adding Peroxide by the cap full. Got it to a nice emerald each time and then rinsed it off after no more reactions were happening.

Thanks.

 

[butcher]

It is hard to see how much metal you have left with your gold, the copper II chloride leach will work slowly for copper metal, it is normally used on thin copper as a leach, when copper is thick it can take a very long time to dissolve it.

This leach will also dissolve other base metals, but this can saturate your solution, and actually make the solution saturated with base metal, where it will not dissolve more copper or can even cement copper out of the solution, if the solution is loaded with base metals, like zinc for example, then it is no longer a copper II chloride solution, but a zinc chloride solution, so at that point it will not dissolve more copper.

So you may need to remove the loaded leach and replace it with fresh copper II chloride, to get more of the copper.

Silver if involved can be a problem for acid chloride solutions if silver chloride forms it will make a crust, that your acid will have a hard time getting through to dissolve other metals.

If you in-quarter the gold left, are you adding silver, and if so, do you now have access to nitric acid.

 

[grfphil]

Hi Butcher, thank you for your words. You are probably right, I did let it sit for 24 hrs in each solution thinking it would eventually get it. I know it is for fingers etc but didn't realize it could take this long for copper.

Forgive me, I used the wrong term when I meant just melt it. In all honesty I was reading around and was in the zone when typing. So you think melting it into a button will be better then trying to grind it up to use in this type of solution? I just thought about grinding it based on how you said it works slowly, then hcl with slow amounts of peroxide? I got that technique from lazersteve's post on fingers. Thanks.

 

[butcher]

If you melt it, and still plan to use the copper II chloride leach you will create a problem, you will have a bigger solid mass for the copper chloride to try to attack, but you will also have a karat type gold that the leach would not work with.

But if you are thinking about in-quartering the gold,pouring shot, and parting with nitric, then that would be different.

If you are not going to use nitric I would not melt the material.

I would try a fresh leach with HCl/H2O2, copper II chloride, and see if that would get me anywhere.

If I felt silver passivisation was the problem here, I would try a small jar of ammonium hydroxide,capturing the gold chunks in a screen, then I could soak the material in the ammonia solution to dissolve the silver chloride, stirring it to abuse it, then re- screen (using a cheap poly plastic kitchen strainer), this gold from the screen would go strait back into the copper II chloride leach to dissolve more copper, (so as not to be allowed to dry where it could be dangerous, the ammonia solution saved to wash the gold later when silver passivated it again, and acidified for safety and to recover the silver chloride from the silver amine solution when done).

You are learning why we choose certain processes for certain types of materials.

 

[grfphil]

Thanks butcher, I think I'm gonna be patient and go the slow route. On a side note, I've been collecting old memory cards, processors, and pins for months now. I'm waiting until I get a nice collection. I'm learning why not to do this this way on gold filled scrap. Lol. Every day I'm thinking about this and trying to understand what I am seeing. Thanks for your guidance. If nothing changes after a week I may just store it all until I know more. Will keep you posted on the progress. C+ for trying.

 

[grfphil]

Hi Butcher, I decided to just let it ride since I don't much access or experience yet to see what would happen. I changed the solution twice now. First one got really dirty and saved it to see if any values are in it. It appears its becoming black powders now. Like choal breaking apart when stirring. I'm guessing the gold is cementing out onto the dissolved copper? Here is a picture. What do you think it is? Its in hcl with slow amounts of h2o2. Thanks.

 

[butcher]

The solution does look pretty good (although it could have too much oxidizer for just trying to dissolve copper and not gold), but it also looks like it could have some dissolved gold, stannous would tell you if it did, the black is your gold, and it is most likely cementing out of solution onto remaining copper, you are getting closer, not perfect, but you are in good shape, use your stannous to keep an eye on what is going on in solution, if gold is in solution ease up on the oxidizers.

 

[grfphil]

Hi Butcher, much appreciated again. I was looking forward to your guidance. I am going to test it tomorrow since today is pretty filled up. I will let you know first thing. It's pretty fascinating to watch!

 

[grfphil]

I wasn't able to test it just yet however I wanted to post another pic. I did have to change the solution again today. I'm saving it though for the end. Only minimal amounts of h2o2 at a time - cap fulls at a time. I'd rather take the sluggish route since this is the best results yet. Don't want to mess it up. In the pictures you can see lighter brown and darker grinds with a slightly reddish hue. I'm so happy to see it cementing out on copper since again this is the first. I do need to test the solution I'm saving though. Thanks.

 

[butcher]

The very light green color of your solution is making me believe you are still using a little more H2O2 than needed, unless you have just added more peroxide to the dark green (almost black solution), as long as you still have free copper in solution this will not be a problem, but you can let the solution get darker, before adding your H2O2 oxidizer, when you get down to gold and most of your copper is gone, I would not add any more peroxide,or add it only very sparingly, it will be OK if the solution darkens, and you would be less likely to put your gold into solution towards the end (with over use of H2O2).

 

[grfphil]

Hi Butcher,

Thanks. Makes total sense. I've been switching when it gets real dark. So last night I decided to just filter it, then let it soak over night in HCL alone. I was thinking it may be a good time to start to rinse it again, though it was over night and I couldn't stir it. Here is the solution I've been saving as well as this mornings picture with HCL alone and no H2o2. I only used it sparingly when it got dark I added a cap full. I'm going to follow your lead and hold off on the oxidizer and observe what's happening. FYI, i'm going to test the other solution today after work 5 CST! I think I'm reading too much or thinking about it too much because I started to dream i was finding nuggets in my backyard. lol.

 

[butcher]

Keep dreaming Who Knows. :lol:

 

[grfphil]

It was a cool dream...but really, the lady who lived in my house prior raised the dirt in the yard 7 inches for no apparent reason. She was an elderly lady. I need to break out a metal detector because maybe there's a bunch of morgan dollars. Ha.

Anyways, I think I'm in good shape. I'm really taking what you say very seriously and truly appreciate you reaching out. I'm trying to be very cautious right now in regards to my next steps. From your personal experience along side what you see here, even though it's the unorthodox method I'm using for this material do you still think I'm in semi-decent shape? I really wanted to start to dry the powders and just be happy with the results, maybe I'm getting overly excited, however again I want to be cautious and do it as right as possible. I'm going to go searching around, but again your responses/comments are encouragement and I'm really trying hard to do as you suggest. I feel more educated on this minute aspect of the entire refining experience it is making me read more, not out of just the desire to refine, but the science behind the entire thing. I don't know much, but I know more than I did yesterday. :lol:

 

[butcher]

Have you studied the document on the copper II chloride leach, found on Laser Steve's web site?
It goes into very good detail of how it works, another thing to study is the reactivity series of metals, and displacement reactions (Google these).
Your doing fine, but you are working hard for that little bit of gold, but the education is where the real value is anyway.