FIRST REFINING help me not make some rookie mistakes

[anachronism]

The crucible I use are from Italy. I purchase them off ebay. Now I did by mistake order some China made ones. Contacted the company on ebay, and they sent me the Italy made crucible for free. And tes the China made ones are made from very low crane material.
When I melted the gf ( gold filled) items I used an acetylene/ oxygen torch. When melting all the material, I noticed the molten metal was getting thicker and thicker. I assumed it was the crucible. I have a couple of old crucibles. I can test one with just melting copper wire in it and see if this happens again.
When I pour the molten metal into the bucket of water..I used a metal bucket or a large stainless steel pot, with just regular water from the garden hose. I pour from a height 2 and a half- 3 feet above the bucket of water. To make the " cornflakes".
Apologies for such a lengthy reply. Just trying to be as detailed as possible. I've always had and got a good return of gold in the past. And I still have some gf items, a gold necklace, a other gf items. I just don't want to waste the gold again. Because it did explode rather violently. Be safe

In fairness I disagree- Ive used them for years. The cheapest ones from any country are bad, and the worst I have ever used were in fact from Europe.

The reason there is low grade Chinese product is down to the US/EU buyers not the Chinese. The buyers keep demanding for lower prices at which point the Chinese nod, smile and agree whilst lowering the quality accordingly.

 

[BGDOCK]

use them , abuse them
Crush them up then put in my sweeps container

 

[ssmontecarlo]

In fairness I disagree- Ive used them for years. The cheapest ones from any country are bad, and the worst I have ever used were in fact from Europe.

The reason there is low grade Chinese product is down to the US/EU buyers not the Chinese. The buyers keep demanding for lower prices at which point the Chinese nod, smile and agree whilst lowering the quality accordingly.

The crucible that are Italian made are the best I've purchased/ used to date. They even stand up to a good sulfuric acid boiling to remove old borax.

 

[Ad discere debemus docere]

To be successful at refining you need one of two things. Enough money to purchase professionally made scrubbers and hoods so you can set up safely, or an ability to follow the instructions on threads that have been written many times and fabricate your own equipment. From the equipment built by members who have shared photo's, the second ability seems to be prevalent.

You may think my response was rude, and I accept that, but I think asking simple questions when you have been given links to threads that answer those questions is also rude. Those that have learned to refine on this forum, and there are many, have shown the initiative to do the work and ask questions when they get stuck or have questionable results.

You haven't been here a week yet, if you stay and do the work to learn, you will be successful. We gave up spoon feeding members years ago. If an established member who has participated here and proven his or her abilities asks a question I will go to my wits end to answer completely and thoroughly, because members like that deserve it. You can join the club, but first you have to do the work.

He didnt ask for instructions, how to, nor an attitude... He layed out a plan which will get him somewhere close to the end result he desires...HE SIMPLY ASKED IF THERE WAS ANYTHING YOU WOULD TELL HIM THAT YOU WISHED YOU KNEW AT THE START OF YOUR PM RECOVERY/REFINING ADVENURE e.g know your filtering process inside and out or I find inquarting with copper is easier. Ive been R&R PM's for a year now and wanted to come here to ask a question many times but decided that avoiding people like you was more important.
"You may think my response was rude, and I accept that, but I think asking simple questions when you have been given links to threads that answer those questions is also rude. " Again, he asked if there was anything you wished you knew that you might want to pass on to him. Read the persons question before assuming hes asking How to. Unreal!!

 

[Ad discere debemus docere]

that is a fair reply and i respect that. i do not mean to be rude by asking the things i did but i wish it was easier to sort through all of these threads. i dont want you to think i didnt look through them once you posted them i did and learned alot exactly as you wanted but with out your link to it i likely wouldnt have found it and for just that reason im glad i asked a stupid question.

i have the upmost respect for the refiners and the experience here and im aspiring to make it to that level i may have only joined a week ago but ive been in metals for almost a decade and have been studying what i can digest of refining for about 2 months. i know thats not long but i deserve a little more credit than a week of understanding. im not educated i didnt take advanced mathematics or chemistry so im dumb as most would probably say but im willing to learn. i will do better about searching for material and including more relevant information when i make or reply to a post that seems to be my biggest issue is im not tackling a specific curiosity or plan. so moving forward i will do so. i dont want to be abrasive with you or anyone else here i want to be a student. with that said i want to do exactly as many of you here have and slowly break in to the science first by collecting material and building out a lab and then introducing complicated chemistry later.
i dont want to be spoon fed. i want to be shovel fed. im a stay at home dad trying to make ends meet with my wife and two kids and i have nothing to apply my mind and energy to im an aggressive learner and slowing down is already hard but i want to learn as much as possible.

all that aside seeing your drawing of the scrubber and venturi pump really connected some dots. and your response to my illiterate use of terms was also valuable and i appreciate that. im going to be looking in to how to best construct the scrubber and fume hood and try to mend both proper equipment and diy solutions and i hope i can call on your help past or present to get it done. im sorry for all this and the confrontation from here on out its all science.

Ive not got the experience some of these people do but I have some fresh failures still close to my heart. I wish someone would have impressed upon me to know my fitering system inside and out and have that well practiced. Dont assume that's the easy part and you will cross that bridge when you get there. For me, filtering was where some things started going south my first time...of course I was doing computer scrap vs karat gold..but probably stays applicable. Good luck!!

Shawn

 

[Ad discere debemus docere]

The IRS may see things differently.

Dave

Of course they will see things differently. Precisely why he wants to avoid them. Did you report your refining earning when first starting out and was possibly small? Its not like he is Sreetips pouring 3 pound bars,

 

[Yggdrasil]

He didnt ask for instructions, how to, nor an attitude... He layed out a plan which will get him somewhere close to the end result he desires...HE SIMPLY ASKED IF THERE WAS ANYTHING YOU WOULD TELL HIM THAT YOU WISHED YOU KNEW AT THE START OF YOUR PM RECOVERY/REFINING ADVENURE e.g know your filtering process inside and out or I find inquarting with copper is easier. Ive been R&R PM's for a year now and wanted to come here to ask a question many times but decided that avoiding people like you was more important.
"You may think my response was rude, and I accept that, but I think asking simple questions when you have been given links to threads that answer those questions is also rude. " Again, he asked if there was anything you wished you knew that you might want to pass on to him. Read the persons question before assuming hes asking How to. Unreal!!

Welcome to us, some first impression you made!
Scolding a moderator and senior member.

You are yourself jumping into the pond without checking the depth.
It is not his first post so many had already gotten an idea of how this was going.
He did well on asking and taking advice.
But the reason this forum is getting harder and harder to search is the wilderness of more or less founded questions already answered.
Some do not bother trying to find them others try and give up.
And a few never gives up and crack the code.

 

[Shark]

How about explaining the in and outs of proper filtering? Just saying your problem was not having enough detail on filtering doesn’t explain much in the way of how to do it. That whole year of experience must have taught you something you can share.

 

[4metals]

Ive been R&R PM's for a year now and wanted to come here to ask a question many times but decided that avoiding people like you was more important.

Thank you for that, knowing your attitude in advance of any questions you may have will certainly make me think twice before answering any of them.

I just went back and read the threads posted by skinny and all in all I think he is off to a decent start and has been advised well. He was asking questions that have been answered time after time and of late I have begun posting links to threads rather than explain over and over. One thing that new members will benefit from is explaining, from the start, their intentions and where they are exactly. From that start we can provide better answers. I think skinny is in a good place with having had things explained so he can get set up.

And a final note to ad discere debemus docere (to learn we must teach) to learn we must study as well. Here, studying involves searching and reading old threads and applying what you have read, supplemented with asking questions. We do try to help all members and answer questions that we can, your start here showed a basic lack of respect to those who can help with these questions. Perhaps you should translate into Latin the phrase respect is repaid with respect.

 

[Shark]

but I think asking simple questions when you have been given links to threads that answer those questions is also rude.

There is an easy fix for this problem. The forum could just self delete every thread more than a week old. This way the owner could save some money on server space, and questions would only be answered once. To save more space maybe the whole thread could be locked as well after the first reply. Then the people that actually help others might not post any information for those unwilling to participate in the forum and only join to benefit themself on the backs of those who do offer help.

 

[Yggdrasil]

There is an easy fix for this problem. The forum could just self delete every thread more than a week old. This way the owner could save some money on server space, and questions would only be answered once. To save more space maybe the whole thread could be locked as well after the first reply. Then the people that actually help others might not post any information for those unwilling to participate in the forum and only join to benefit themself on the backs of those who do offer help.

What is in your qoute is 4metals reply to @docere that he has quoted in an unusual way.
Not his words.

 

[Shark]

I see that now, but felt it was just rude of docere to use it when he has not offered a single reply with any real help to anyone since joining GRF. He wants to be a teacher, but has never offered any help to those asking publicly for it. If he feels the answers here are so rude he could go to the other gold refining forum, they might be more complacent than here. That is if there is such a place.

Ok I will get off my soap box for now.

 

[ssmontecarlo]

There is an easy fix for this problem. The forum could just self delete every thread more than a week old. This way the owner could save some money on server space, and questions would only be answered once. To save more space maybe the whole thread could be locked as well after the first reply. Then the people that actually help others might not post any information for those unwilling to participate in the forum and only join to benefit themself on the backs of those who do offer

 

[ssmontecarlo]

That's a good idea.

 

[Shark]

Let’s get back to the original OP.

Skinny,
Finding threads that can directly help a specific problem can feel pretty futile at times, no doubt. Been there myself. I still read the forum, and often do random search’s just to see something new, or more like old. Just something to read. This often leads to re finding things I had forgot, or more importantly, things that i didn’t understand the first time around. When you do a search and you get hundreds of results I am always curious as to why so many results. What I have found is that the same questions are ask over and over. This is a problem if you need it quick, but long term those posts often have a new piece of information on the subject. By reading the majority, or even all of them, you will often get a full education on the subject. As well, you can get side tracked into another subject and learn a lot about a future question you may have later, and you may not even realize your getting ahead in one subject while feeling overwhelmed by the search result numbers of another subject. Keep the fact you’re looking for an education in mind and try to soak it all in. Putting it into practice later will be much easier.

Also I feel your original post may have been a bit misunderstood. You tried to explain your plan, as you understood it and we often ask to be done. Being very new, it may not have came out right or at least from the point of more experienced people. Reading the mass search results will also eventually improve this for both sides. Think of it this way, if someone ask about sodium metabisulfate, and the answer to the question was given correctly and simply, would it help the one asking if they actually wanted information on sodium metabisulfite? This is why many times posting links are more helpful than just getting one question answered. Frustrating at times, yes, but long term it can be more helpful.

that is a fair reply and i respect that. i do not mean to be rude by asking the things i did but i wish it was easier to sort through all of these threads. i dont want you to think i didnt look through them once you posted them i did and learned alot exactly as you wanted but with out your link to it i likely wouldnt have found it and for just that reason im glad i asked a stupid question.

Its not that a question is stupid, but if you sat at a help desk day after day and only ever heard one or two questions, for years in many members cases, how long would it to take to start falling asleep on the job? Now suppose that your job now pays absolutely nothing. How long would a person keep that job just for the fun of it? For me, I don’t think I could make to the end of the first day.

Now as for your plan.

my plan is simple at the moment.
calculate how much material i have and inquart it to 6k gold alloy using sterling silver.
dissolve silver and base metals with nitric acid boils until solution is clear
filter rinse and then use sulfuric acid to drop lead
filter rinse
do an aqua regia dissolve on the remaining gold sponge
filter and then precipitate and repeat aqua regia for a second refine.

We need to know what the material is. We can assume, based on your plan of inquarting, that it karat gold. Assuming not a good thing. Hence the questions on what you have.

Nitric would be a nice step, if you inquarted karat gold and made it into shot, hence my answer of pouring your shot, I assumed, not a good thing.

I am not sure adding sulfuric into nitric will drop lead, I need to do some research, or a forum search. I don’t need another assumption.( I truly do not know the answer here. )

Filtering here sounds good, if all my assumptions are correct.

AR here sounds good, again if I assumed correctly. This is where I would add the sulfuric to deal with any lead. Now if lead is there, and this is an assumption (I know, not a good thing) but it is better to find out now if lead is an issue here, and not when melting the gold later. Also, do not forget to use a step here to take out any residual silver that may have snuck by and made it to this point. Excess water, or ice will help with that.

Here is a spot that you missed if your looking very high grade results. Do not skip your wash procedures here. Another search subject with many ways to do it, and most are right in their respective situation when originally posted. Harold had a good working method especially for karat gold, if that assumption was correct.

I do a second refine, even if the powders look clean. The whole procedure, every step. I may use different chemicals as precipitants at times.

This all assumes that our/my assumptions are correct. I wish I was that good, but it is best to assume I may not be.
The real answer, if none of us assume, we will be better at this.

 

[Ad discere debemus docere]

Thank you for that, knowing your attitude in advance of any questions you may have will certainly make me think twice before answering any of them.

I just went back and read the threads posted by skinny and all in all I think he is off to a decent start and has been advised well. He was asking questions that have been answered time after time and of late I have begun posting links to threads rather than explain over and over. One thing that new members will benefit from is explaining, from the start, their intentions and where they are exactly. From that start we can provide better answers. I think skinny is in a good place with having had things explained so he can get set up.

And a final note to ad discere debemus docere (to learn we must teach) to learn we must study as well. Here, studying involves searching and reading old threads and applying what you have read, supplemented with asking questions. We do try to help all members and answer questions that we can, your start here showed a basic lack of respect to those who can help with these questions. Perhaps you should translate into Latin the phrase respect is repaid with respect.

4 metals: How are you doing sir? "You may think my response was rude, and I accept that" With all due and I mean DUE respect, "possibly you dont accept that." This is my first return since the night I announced myself to the forum. First, I have 17 years in recovery and have worked within NA, Clinical counseling ( I became a D/A counselor), through peer support in the community and through working (mentoring) gang related at-risk youth under a well known gang prevention program, helping others to make changes in their lives. So I am beyond respectful, also respected. Perhaps, at this juncture, I don't feel I have anything to teach. Im still in the learning stages. I don't feel a year qualifies me to pass on wisdom over a forum. I would defer to the giants that have came before me for this. What I did have, and why I replied, was something I wished I knew before I started. Which, again, what was asked.

So, I gave the info that was relevant to my experience which was; to know your filtering system inside and out. To have it practiced. Its the first place things when bad for me. I thought that to be enough. This is because my position at the time, and no doubt now, is this is dangerous work...I better have my ability to explain things "reply" down pat or I could get someone hurt or the forum could turn on me...and rightfully so, in part. To mock my lack of contribution is, I don't know, the easy thing to do?! when you have a life time of this and me a year.
I also live by the adage take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth. Any die hard AA or NA participants will appreciate that.

And for my coup de grace, everyone's criticisms of my behavior (and I will do a moral inventory) may be valid. And If I find that to be true, I apologize. I stand up to bully judges in family courts advocating for men to get their licenses back so they can stop getting driving on suspended, while trying to get to work to earn the money to pay all the fines. I stand up to gang members that don't want to give up a soldier.. I have to have this disposition to survive that which I do. Maybe, not knowing all his former questions, there was some transference occurring .IDK
In all other words: I live my life in the service of others.

I will 100 percent apologize for saying that I wanted to ask questions before but was more afraid of running into someone like you. That was inappropriate and a flat out lie..... and I am sorry.

How about explaining the in and outs of proper filtering? Just saying your problem was not having enough detail on filtering doesn’t explain much in the way of how to do it. That whole year of experience must have taught you something you can share.

Shark, good day sir. Touche'

 

[Ad discere debemus docere]

Welcome to us, some first impression you made!
Scolding a moderator and senior member.

You are yourself jumping into the pond without checking the depth.
It is not his first post so many had already gotten an idea of how this was going.
He did well on asking and taking advice.
But the reason this forum is getting harder and harder to search is the wilderness of more or less founded questions already answered.
Some do not bother trying to find them others try and give up.
And a few never gives up and crack the code.

"You are yourself jumping into the pond without checking the depth."
Yes, I do that for a living. And, you are a poet.
Journey well sir.

 

[Ad discere debemus docere]

Heck no - I dove straight into the nox ........

LOL

 

[Ag and Au]

The Evolution of the Beginner Refiner (*lots of sarcasm here):
1) * Stumble onto this hobby
2) * Buy a thermometer to measure your Gold Fever that is approaching
3) * Start pricing-out expensive homes, cars and other luxury items, because you’re going to be rich
4) * Start thinking about building an Egyptian-Style pyramid for your gold
5) * Watch incredibly unsafe and reckless You Tubers refining gold in far away countries
6) * You now know everything - make your first acid/metal/toxic mess (like I did) and then question why you jumped into this crazy endeavor
7) Go on-line for help and luckily find this remarkable, well-run Forum (rightfully tough, yet fair)
8) Explain to the Pros (in detail) what you did and wait for the pros to explain how to keep yourself safe and how to educate yourself on the basics
9) Pick one starting point (I chose gold fingers using AP followed by AR). Start small, stay focused and learn everything you can about this one area
10) Come back to earth and realize that you are not going to be rich from PM refining anytime soon
11) Strive toward achieving some small, measurable success. Make your first button (or bar) – size isn’t important
12) Stay in your lane – know your limits. I am limiting myself to gold refining only.

This endeavor is NOT for everyone. It requires an enormous amount of reading, time, patience and thinking.

This is my first masterpiece – it took 1.5 years of part-time studies (my next gold bar will be double that).

I couldn’t have done this without the help of the benevolent members on this Forum.

 

[Urbanprospector]

im not sure why your so rude about it i dont know if youve dug through the forums your self recently but there are hundreds of thousands of threads so forgive me sir for wanting to consolidate some of the answers i was looking for here while doing my research. theres alot to read and i dont yet have specific questions alot im gonna have to learn from trial and error what i was looking for was maybe a few lessons from those who have already learned them and broadly. there is alot of language and chemistry here i dont yet fully understand so some of the answers i may need dont stick out to me. yes i am a beginner and i am posting in the beginners section yet somehow i feel like i dont belong here and cant post my own questions thoughts or results. the next guy was atleast kind about letting me know how to improve my post frankly your a bit rude i appreciate the link but that doesnt answer anything for me that particular thread is stuff i already understand. ill be sure to look harder before i post anything further or specific or ill go else where to discuss.

You definitely didn’t deserve the attitude. I’m new to the forum and am noticing that people really don’t like us to post at all. Maybe we just want some to talk with about it.