Fixing up my poormans AR screw-up

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The best trick is to use an added button of pure gold when evaporating. It will readily consume any free nitric, assuming you have some free HCl present. It also allows for solutions to be evaporated far less, although in my case, my objective was twofold---eliminate any unused nitric, but to also concentrate my solutions, which was my preferred method.

In regards to issues with too much sulfuric or HCl----never in my more than 20 years of refining did I ever experience any issues with too much of either, and there were some solutions that had a huge overage of HCl. Sulfuric was never a problem, because it was used sparingly, simply to ensure no lead was carried through the process.

Think about keeping a small button of gold on hand for evaporating. It's a decision you won't regret.

Harold
 
Thank you, Harold,

Long before I started evaporating the solution, I placed a 1 ounce man made gold nugget into the solution. It was scratch tested at a local jewelry store and I was told it was 22k. It was in the solution for a full 6 hours and 1.64 grams of it actually did dissolve. I should have realized that if I had left it in my heated solution, it might have helped get rid of excess nitric. Quite a bit of the excess NaNO3 and SMB that I used precipitated out of the solution, so I will soon be adding HCl and then re-evaporating as per Hoke (and almost everyone else on the forum).
 
the sodium carbonate used as she described is the same as the way i described when using SMB. it precipitates a small amount of metal which in turn gets dissolved using up the free nitric.
 
Yesterday, when my pyrolyzer hit a small snag, I got out the beaker of solution which I had evaporated down. A couple of days ago, I once again filtered out a whitish sediment from the bottom of the beaker, then added about 100 ml of HCl and set it aside. Yesterday, I put the beaker on my stirring hot plate and turned the heat on low and the stir to slow (about 300 rpm). Then I added a small plastic spoonful of SMB, a small amount at a time. After a minute or two, the white color of the SMB spinning around in the solution turned dark. I shut everything down and noticed the liquid started to settle rather rapidly. A couple of hours later, there was a nice brown sediment on the bottom. I plan to decant this off and restart the evaporation process for the second time.

I dipped a Q-tip into the solution, and dropped a drop of stannous chloride test solution on it. The Q-tip turned very dark, almost black. This indicated to me that I hadn't yet removed all the nitric which was in my original solution. If there's gold in there, there had to be excess nitric to allow it to dissolve.

When I made my test solution, I used HCl, a little H2O, and a couple of beads of pure tin shot. I then added a couple of crystals of stannous chloride anhydrous. It is probably a fairly strong solution, so I would expect it to test positive even when there isn't much gold in the solution.
 
The color of the stannous test comes from colloidal gold, that gives the purple - black color, not the stannous. It only turns the gold chloride into a gold colloid.
With the help of dilution you can use the color as a measurement of how much gold you have in a solution. You only need some reference solutions to compare with.

Depending on how much nitric acid was used in the beginning I would either denox the solution via evaporation or add a button of gold.

Have you added a couple of drops of sulfuric acid? You said you got a white sediment when evaporating, that could be lead chloride in your solution.

Göran
 
bswartzwelder said:
Yesterday, when my pyrolyzer hit a small snag, I got out the beaker of solution which I had evaporated down. A couple of days ago, I once again filtered out a whitish sediment from the bottom of the beaker, then added about 100 ml of HCl and set it aside. Yesterday, I put the beaker on my stirring hot plate and turned the heat on low and the stir to slow (about 300 rpm). Then I added a small plastic spoonful of SMB, a small amount at a time. After a minute or two, the white color of the SMB spinning around in the solution turned dark. I shut everything down and noticed the liquid started to settle rather rapidly. A couple of hours later, there was a nice brown sediment on the bottom. I plan to decant this off and restart the evaporation process for the second time.

I dipped a Q-tip into the solution, and dropped a drop of stannous chloride test solution on it. The Q-tip turned very dark, almost black. This indicated to me that I hadn't yet removed all the nitric which was in my original solution. If there's gold in there, there had to be excess nitric to allow it to dissolve.

When I made my test solution, I used HCl, a little H2O, and a couple of beads of pure tin shot. I then added a couple of crystals of stannous chloride anhydrous. It is probably a fairly strong solution, so I would expect it to test positive even when there isn't much gold in the solution.
Bert,

I disagree with your conclusion when you say the stannous test "indicated to me that I hadn't yet removed all the nitric which was in my original solution."

You said you added some SMB and got "a nice brown sediment on the bottom" If that sediment is still there, you don't have any nitric left (assuming there is a bit of HCl still in the solution) or the sediment would dissolve back into solution.

To me, the stannous test simply indicates that you still have gold in solution. That's good. It means you haven't added too much SMB, which could cause base metals to start to precipitate as well. Add some more SMB, stir well, then test again. As long as you're seeing more sediment, but still getting a positive stannous test, just keep adding small amounts of SMB until the stannous test is negative.

Be careful not to confuse a positive stannous test - deep purple to black, with a false positive - very dark brown, which you can see if you've added too much SMB.

Hope that makes sense and helps.

Dave
 
Howdy Ya'll...
It sounds like too much SMB which can cause a false positive.

I have been collecting gold from gold rimmed dishes and other nick nacks and glass...etc. I also have AP running and have sediment from that.

When the gold takes too long to dissolve from the plates, I let sit overnight untill things stop dissolving. I'll then precipitate with a 1/2 gram of SMB and let sit 3 days untill everything settles. I then use the little plastic strainer mentioned, find them at dollar stores and works great with the small 1 cup coffee filters. The filtered solution I put right in the AP sediment which dissolves alittle, precipates. What ever it wants. The sediment doesn't usually do much but once I have gotten positive for gold and added another 1/2 gram SMB and gotten more gold from it.

My point/question is: If you think you have nitric left over and can't seem to get rid of it, why not put your AP sediment in it and let it sit for a day or 2?

Wouldn't it dissolve untill nitric's gone? Added bonus would be first refinning of some of the AP sediment. Granted, if you feel the need to be perfectly exact with "what goes in, comes out measurements"...not me, get'er done... This would be a problem.

B.S.

...I'm not a technical perfectionalist but my O.C.D. and A.D.D. force me to find a solution to any and every bump in the road...

(Edited for spelling after reading it twice before submitting)
 
OK. Here is my reasoning. In the beginning, I really dumped a lot of Sodium nitrate into my HCl because not all of the gold would dissolve. As a result, I ended up with a huge excess of Nitric, and still not all the gold dissolved. Since the gold was in the form of placer nuggets, I now assume that somehow they became oxidized causing them to turn black and preventing them from dissolving completely. Then, I tried my first precipitation. I DID get some brown powder settling to the bottom and my solution turned almost clear with the exception of the powdered gold which had yet to settle. I kept adding SMB hoping the solution would show that all the gold had precipitated. Did not happen. Next morning, there was still brown powder in the bottom of the beaker, but the solution had turned to its familiar yellow color. At no time, when I tested the solution did I ever get a negative for gold. It was ALWAYS positive, which I took to mean not all the gold had precipitated.

Let me say here that I purchased Gold Chloride solution online from a chemical supplier and use it as my "standard" for testing my Stannous Chloride solution. Would really cause a lot of problems if my stannous gave me a false negative when in fact, there was gold in my solution. I dip a Q-tip into my standard gold chloride solution and then drop a single drop of my stannous chloride solution on it. So far, my stannous chloride has always turned the end of the Q-tip a rich black color.

Now, I knew I had added way too much NaNO3 and way too much SMB. I felt certain I needed to get rid of excess Nitric, so I hung another gold nugget (1 ounce of 22k) into my solution. Only 1.64 grams of gold dissolved from it. I added a very small amount of SMB and nothing happened. Still thinking the problem was excess Nitric, I started to evaporate it as per almost everyone including Ms. Hoke. I evaporated for several days. next morning (for each of several days) there was a white sediment. At first it looked like crystals, and then it started to look more like a powder. Then, according to Hoke, I added more HCl to reconstitute the solution. I figured it wouldn't hurt anything at this point to try to precipitate any gold that I could, so I carefully added one small spoonful of SMB. The white SMB looked like a snow storm swirling around in the yellow solution. Then, the snow storm turned brown, so I shut off the stir and heat functions and let it rest overnight.

I carefully decanted the solution from the sediment. The sediment went into a beaker with the sediment I got from dissolving foils using HCl/Chlorox. The solution, still yellow has only been evaporated 1 time. As per members on the forum (and Ms. Hoke), I plan on repeating the evaporation process up to a total of three times, or until the solution shows no gold is dissolved in it. If there is still gold in the solution, there must have been nitric there to cause it to dissolve. As some gold precipitates, there has to be less in the solution. Once all the nitric is gone, the gold cannot re-dissolve. Before I start evaporation for the second time, I WILL add H2SO4 to it. Again, anywhere from a few drops to a few ml should do the trick. The original gold was placer gold and not from escrap. I would expect that while it may contain some lead, I wouldn't think it would be that much.

The stannous test has always been a deep black. Both when testing my "standard" solution and my dissolved gold solution. Once I set the Q-tips down, they were indistinguishable.

If I follow Ms. Hoke, I need to evaporate more (at least once or twice). I can precipitate all that will come out right now, but if I wait for it to settle, and there is any nitric left, some will re-dissolve. As long as it's re-dissolving, there must be nitric. Get rid of the nitric and the problem should be solved. Dang, WHAT A ROOKIE MISTAKE!
 
sounds like passivation. next time, pull the material that wouldnt dissolve and incinerate. most likely a layer of silver chloride covering the material. incinerating will allow you to break it up so the acids can reach the reactive metals.
 
I can see several possibilities or where several different things could cause what you had, the key would be to troubleshoot and find out what the problem was.

When using NaNO3 in solution you are counting on having enough acid in solution, a portion of your acid (Hydrogen) is needed to form nitric in solution, and then you still need the portion of acid to form gold chloride, if you use too much NaNO3compared to the amount of HCl you can get to a point that not all of the NaNO3 is converted to acid HNO3 in solution, this can also limit the amount of acid HCl to form gold chlorides.

With the above scenario you can have a solution rich in NaNO3 unconverted to HNO3 in solution, as we know NaNO3 will not oxidize the gold, or be consumed by added gold or evaporation, evaporation would just concentrate the NaNO3 salts in solution, and adding acid HCl or H2SO4 at the end of the evaporation will convert the NaNO3 salts back into nitric acid.

So here we see we would need to have enough acid involved to convert all of the NaNO3 to HNO3 in solution, then we can vapor off nitric acid or consume it in the process with oxidizing our gold.

The stannous chloride test should show a violet color, if I get a test where it looks black (usually highly concentrated, I will normally hold the Q-tip in the vapor fumes of a solution of concentrating aqua regia, the fumes will normally dilute the black color and I will see the violet color of gold colloids on the Q-tip.

I also think as Geo stated it is possible your gold nugget (22K ?) button could have become passivated, which would keep gold from going into solution and consuming your nitric, or as above your acid was limited, so that there was not enough free acid in solution to dissolve the gold.
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Lets assume we have a solution of diluted gold chloride (no free nitric acid), no free HCl acid, but we have a dissolved salt of NaNO3 in solution,we test the solution and get a positive for gold in solution a violet color on our Q-tip, this proves to us that the stannous can reduce our gold back to metal (colloidal gold), now we go to precipitate our gold and we add our sodium metabisulfite to the solution, now lets look to see what could possibly happen when we try to precipitate our gold from this solution:

Sodium metabisulfite and water, form sodium bisulfite in solution:
Na2S2O5 + H2O --> 2NaHSO3

Notice the hydrogen in the sodium bisulfite above, the bisulfite can give up this hydrogen (and again form acid in solution) we we will see this below.

gold chloride and sodium bisulfite in a dilute solution to precipitate gold.
2AuCl3 + 3NaHSO3 + 3H2O --> 2Au (s) + 6HCl +3NaHSO4

Notice when we precipitate the gold we formed HCl acid again in solution, and also sodium bisulfate (which also has Hydrogen it could give up to form acid in solution), this is normal conditions so far.

The gas evolved normally breaks down the sodium bisulfate in solution into sodium sulfate, water and sulfur trioxide gas:
2NaHSO4 --> Na2SO4 +SO3 + H2O

Now what if we had NaNO3 salts in this solution, the HCl acid formed as we precipitate the gold mixed with the NaNO3 salts in solution would dissolve back the gold into solution.

HCl + NaNO3 --> poor-mans aqua regia
HCl + NaNO3 + Au --> poor-mans gold chloride solution
 
A little tip.
While it's not always the case, the use of natural nuggets for eliminating free nitric isn't a great idea, as the percentage of silver present will most likely result in a hard shell of silver chloride (which won't be white) surrounding the nuggets, quickly stopping the consumption of nitric. Beyond that, you will also have no idea of the amount of gold you've added to the solution (that may not matter).

Use pure gold for eliminating nitric.

Harold
 
Thank you, ALL. I now realize there were more things to consider than just the original process.

Harold, if it makes any difference, the 22k 1 ounce nugget I used to try to eliminate the excess nitric was man made. It still doesn't rule out other contaminants since it wasn't pure 24k gold.

While the small nuggets seemed to turn black, I would think it is possible there was some silver in there. Wasn't it in Nevada where the streams had a black deposit in them as a left over from the gold mining? After someone realized it was silver, I believe they found they had lost more money in silver than they had gained from the gold? I am also considering putting the very small black pieces from the original filtering into a crucible with flux and heating it in the microwave for about an hour. Whatever metals are present, should drop to the bottom when I pour the molten flux mixture into a cone shape mold.

I will try and add a small amount of SMB to my solution to see if more gold precipitates. The precipitated powder that I got a couple of days ago seems to be a little bit lighter brown in color than what precipitated first. Could be my eyes playing tricks on me, I don't know. At any rate, not in a hurry, and will consider all suggestions.

As far as the white stuff which has been coming out of solution as I evaporated everything down previously, I believe I remember Ms. Hoke saying that a very little lead will produce quite a lot of lead chloride. I know I had WAY TOO much NaNO3 and SMB, so that's still my first guess. Lead is not an impossibility with placer gold. Again, thanks for all the input.
 
In regards to the presence of silver when dissolving gold--if it is in a lower percentage (less than 10%), it will slough off and manifest itself as the familiar white material with which we are all familiar. However, if it's present in a high enough percentage, what it tends to do is turn a greenish gray color. At that point, it becomes impregnable by AR, and will tolerate being boiled for hours with no change. I know this from multiple experiences. I've not seen it turn black, but that may not be beyond reason. I'll withhold judgment, as I have no similar experience. It does, however, bring to mind colloidal gold, so I question if, maybe, there's a trace of tin in the gold button you mentioned. Even then, I'd expect that unless the free acid was well diminished, it would just be dissolved.

Overall, it is my opinion that the man made gold nugget contained contaminants that are not in the best interest of the refiner.

Harold
 
I am still thinking I will melt the tiny black nuggets using flux. No one has said this will be a bad idea, and if it is truly gold underneath, little, if any, should be lost simply by melting with flux. Still working on the pyrolyzer when time and weather allows.
 
any metal reclaimed by melting can be inquarted with silver and digested with nitric acid. it should clear up the problems your having with whats left.
 

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