French 'Ormolu' Gold

[kuma]

Hi all , how are things ?
Hope all is well!
Well , I've not posted for a short while , been busy with the kids and I've been collecting a few more bit's.
I now have three adverts out asking for any old computer equipment for an 'ongoing project' , and I am now getting fairly regular phone calls to pick up bits , I had my last phone call just this morning to pick up a laptop , just a ten minute walk up the road , so things are starting to tick along nicely!
I have also put out an advert asking for any games for the 'old Nintendo and Sega games consoles'. The games for any of these older model consoles have gold fingers , and some are worth a bit to collectors , so you never know.
I also cashed in my aluminium heatsinks and a few other bit's the other day , a big bag full , I got £4.50 for that , and it cost me nothing , result!
But the realy cool thing that I found , is , apparently French 'Ormolu' gold.
I found these two old light fittings in a skip , a little bit mangled and with some white paint splattered on them from dodgy decorating. They caught my eye because they looked more 'golden' than brassy , and it was dark.
I brought them home and cleaned up one of the smaller pieces that comes off , and had to keep kicking myself up the proverbial so as not to excite myself to much.
I'm still kicking away.
Anyways , I took the cleaned up piece (a bit of a spit and polish jobbie , with a touch of nail varnish remover to get rid of the paint splat) to a local antiques shop to borrow his experienced eye for a momemt.
Straight away he told me that it was French Ormolu.
I suspect that many of you will probably already know this , but for those that don't know what Ormolu is , here is what I've learnt so far.
'Ormolu is the french term for 'ground gold' or 'pounded gold' , and the term reffers to the method of applying gold to say a bronze statue , by way of a mercury amalgam , then placed in an oven to drive off the mercury leaving the gold attached to the piece.
This practise was banned , if my memory serves me right from the google , in 1830 , due to the adverse health risks , although the method was still practised for around a hundred years aftyer the ban was introduced.
The guy's that practiced this didn't usually live past the age of forty , usualy after their teeth fell out and they went a little 'doo-lally' , due to mercury poisoning from the fumes that were generated.
They soon developed better and safer techniques for applying gold to decorative pieces , and one of these techniques is to apply what is called 'Gilt Laquer'.
This is where the gold is 'painted' on , and the chemical used (the name of this alludes me) is allowed to dry , leaving the gold again attached to the piece.
Even though this is a different method than the one utilising mercury , the pieces are still reffered to as Ormolu.
Acording to the guy in the antiques shop , this is what I have here! :lol:
But alas , lets not get too excited ,..... :|
During my trawl through the internet trying to verifiy the guys oppinion (i know that he's the expert , but another opinion or five wouldn't go a miss!) , I came across another kind of 'ormolu' , one that isn't as it seems.
There is another technique where they try to recreate the look of gold by applying an aloy of copper and nickel or tin , basicaly a type of bronze.
Anyway , that's what I learnt yesterday , so now I know , lol
So , even though it looks like gold , and the guy in the shop said it's 'painted' with gold , I'm not sure , to good to be true is ringing loudly in my ears :|
There is some intricate detail on these , there is no mould flash , and they do look old , so I'm hopefull.
I have sent some pictures to an online appraisal firm to get another oponion as to wether or not they could indeed be 'painted' with gold.
What I would give for just one drop of nitric now , it's madness!!
I'll put pictures below for your veiwing pleasure , please let me know what your experienced eyes see!!
All the best for now and kindest regards ,
Chris :mrgreen:



View attachment 2

 

[seawolf]

If there is a jewler nearby he could do a scratch test for you.
Mark

 

[nickvc]

Worth much more as pieces than for the gold content check with interior designers and auctioneers.

 

[kuma]

Hi guys!

If there is a jewler nearby he could do a scratch test for you.
Mark

I was hoping that the guy from the antique shop would be able to do some kind of test , but he just used his eye. Going to a jewelers hadn't crossed my mind , thanks!

Worth much more as pieces than for the gold content check with interior designers and auctioneers.

I've been thinking over this one , they are a bit dirty and dinged , but the piece that I cleaned up turned out O.K. , so I'd say that they have a good chance!
I'm thinking aswell though , that if indeed they are 'painted' with gold , that it might be relativley thick and worth processing.
I guess it all comes down to their value , if it turns out that they're worth a few quid , I'll sell for sure , but if they're not worth much and they are golden , pass me the goggles and gloves!
I'll spend some time genlty tarting them up and get them down to the auctioneers in town for a propper appraisal.
Many thanks for the input guys ,
With kind regards ,
Chris

 

[seawolf]

If it turns out there is no resale value and they are gold plated / painted do not melt. Determine the base metal and then select the best recovery process. Stripper cell, AP, or 50 - 50 nitric digestion, each method has it pro's and con's but any will work faster / better if the material is not melted first.
Good luck, Mark

 

[kuma]

If it turns out there is no resale value and they are gold plated / painted do not melt. Determine the base metal and then select the best recovery process. Stripper cell, AP, or 50 - 50 nitric digestion, each method has it pro's and con's but any will work faster / better if the material is not melted first.
Good luck, Mark

Hi , hows tricks ?
Hope all is well!
Yeah , deffinatly for sure , I was thinking of using the 50/50 nitric or the AP process , but as you say it would be much better if I can determine without doubt the base metal so that I know from the start what I'm dealing with.
Would I be right in assuming that these would be the different pro's and con's associated with either of the two methods mentioned above ?
Nitric ; Much faster base metal digestion than AP , but way more expensive to purchase than acid and peroxide , and lots of nasty nitric oxide to deal with ?
AP ; Much cheaper than nitric and easier to source , and from what I believe reusable , but very slow in comparison to digest the base metals , fumes are also an issue but not on the same scale as nitric ?
I'm sure that the base metal is brass , but it's hard to tell as when scratched the golden yellow around the scratch seems to reflect a yellow glow straight in to it.
It does feel a bit like scratching into a paint of sorts , it seems quiet thick and relativley soft , it's an odd one!
The base metal underneath does look like a light brassy colour , and there are signs of copper corrosion on the backs of the pieces.
Melting first is deffinatly not something that I would have considered , and I think that the tiny midge of a torch that I have now would have a heart attack at the thought of even trying!
I didn't mention in my first post , but there are some numbers stamped in the rear of them.
On the back of one there is a large 'E' , and opposite is stamped the number '941' , up on the other end of the piece is stamped the number '750' or '7509' , it's hard to tell.
On the rear of the other piece , again there is the letter 'E' , opposite another number , this time '950' , but none on the other end.
The style of font also looks to be pretty old.
My guess is that maybe they are some kind of serial numbers , or maybe they're from a limited edition series of some sort , I have not the faintest idea!
Well , I'm off to google to see if I can find out anything more about them from here.
Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated!
All the best and kindest regards ,
Chris :mrgreen:

 

[seawolf]

I went online and found a site called artfact in the UK they have a picture of a set of three Ormolu sconce that look real close to yours. It is item 33 but you have to register to see the price it sold for; I can’t register on the work computer. The auction house is Gorringes
Hope this helps, Mark

 

[kuma]

I went online and found a site called artfact in the UK they have a picture of a set of three Ormolu sconce that look real close to yours. It is item 33 but you have to register to see the price it sold for; I can’t register on the work computer. The auction house is Gorringes
Hope this helps, Mark

Ah , nice one , cheers for that!
I'll pop over now and have a ganders , will let you know!
All the best and many thanks ,
Chris

 

[kuma]

Hi again , I just went over to have a look , but they want credit card details just to sign up for a free trial subscription.
I'll keep looking , lol
All the best ,
Chris

 

[macfixer01]

Kuma,
Offhand a stripping cell would seem like the best method since the gold is just on the surface. However if as you say the gold may be applied as powder or leaf within a lacquer or coated with lacquer, that would likely also insulate it to the point where the cell wouldn't be able to function. I was wondering if you have access to an VOM or Ohm Meter? I'd be curious if a very light application of the probes on the surface shows conductivity through the gold coating. Jamming them into the coating of course will tell nothing. If the surface is non-conductive a cell isn't likely going to do much of anything.

I see a lot of Ormolu items for high prices currently on Ebay, however asking prices and what they get can be vastly different. You'd need to research completed auctions, but it looks like you'd still probably do better selling them? One other thought is you really need to get it tested to know what you're dealing with. If you don't currently have stannous chloride or AR then have a jeweler or cash-for-gold store test it. As you apparently discovered also, according to Dictionary.com Ormolu is also another name used for mosaic gold which is an imitation gold product. Nice find though, good luck and let us know how you do with them!

macfixer01

 

[kuma]

Thanks for the input!
I wasn't too sure on the stripping cell , I'm not very familiar with the process yet , so I had only considered the processes I have read about the most and understand.
I definatly get what your saying with regards to the potential presence of lacquer hindering the cell operation , even though I hadn't considered using a cell (depending wether or not I sell it , or if indeed it is even gold on there!) , this isn't somthing that would have crossed my mind , Cheers!
I like your idea of using an OHM meter to test , I don't have one (should do by now mind , lol) , but can easily get hold of one , it's probably quicker for me to go to a jewelers in town , whichever pops up first I suppose.
Good call on the 'Mosaic Gold' thing by the way , this whole thing doesn't feel right to me , it's too easy , tgtbt?? :|
Many thanks and kind regards ,
Chris

 

[goldsilverpro]

I did find a reference that said that true ormola, done with mercury, has not been produced since 1830, due to regulations. Since then, if gold is used, it is plating and is very thin compared with true ormolu. I also found references that said that some modern ormolu is imitation gold (copper alloy).

To me, the gold looks like gold and, if true ormolu, the pieces would be quite old and could be valuable. Since you were able to clean them without removing the gold, this could indicate true ormolu. However, in the last photo, the large discolored area in the depression makes me believe in the possibility that the parts were only gold plated. Plating doesn't "throw" into depressions well and therefore would be thinner in those areas. This could very well be the reason for the discoloration.

Were it me, I would try to find out exactly what these are before I did anything else to them, and that includes cleaning them. If true ormolu, I would think there would likely be traces of mercury in the gold. If you could find a lab that had an XRF programmed for mercury, that would be a non-destructive test that might prove whether it is true ormolu (if it tested positive for mercury).

Just thinking out loud.

 

[kuma]

Hello , many thanks again for the input!
That all makes sense to me , apart from the test that you mentioned, I've not heard of that at all! :?:
I definitly understand the not cleaning them aspect , I did just today come across some other information with regards to cleaning ormolu and it seems that it's not for the amature due to risk of damage , I wish I had read that before subjecting that piece to nail varnish remover!
I have strongly taken on board all advice , and I'll find out as much as I can before deciding to do anything with them.
I'll also have to keep reminding myself that they might turn out not to be golden at all!
I suppose time will tell , I'm on it now and I'll keep everyone updated.
Many thanks to everybody again ,
With the kindest regards ,
Chris

 

[kuma]

Hello again all , how are tricks ?
Well , I got all geared up today and popped into town to get some more opinions on these fitting's that I've found , but , being the silly sally that I am , I completly forgot that it's bank holiday.
Yup. Two hours worth of parking scratch cards scratched (needlessly scratched as it's a bank holiday [£2.00 down on this call] , the plum) , and an entheusiastic march from one end of town to the other clutching my latest hopes and dreams (I know , how big can 'town' be?! It's Jersey!) , all seemingly a waste of time.
Apparently not!
I had a phone call whilst I was out from the Pastor that I e-mailed recently regarding ram sticks , as he was in his office in town and wanted me to go and have a looksy at what he had.
He gave me a small stack of pcb's with fingers , a couple of them were old 'fattie' types from 1992 , a few drives (some aluminium and pins , all mounts up) , and 1.85 kg (around 4 lbs) of mixed ram sticks!
A few of them were the small type with the silver coloured fingers , but the vast majority of them have the gold fingers.
I feel I know exactly what to do with these , and above and beyond trimming the fingers and running these and the depopulated boards through AP , I rather feel a winter ball mill design and development project coming on , so watch this space!
All he wanted in return for this lot was any 1gb ram sticks that I could provide him with , which was three. I did have four but I have promised to save some for my other 'ram guy' , 8)
I also gave him a still packaged and brand new Belkin 5 port usb board that was given to me recently when I picked up a 'load' , and when I get paid for the two flatscreen monitors that I was given (which I then sold to my m8) the other day , I will put some cash in his charity pot as a gesture of good will.
I will have another go at town tommorow and see what I can find out about these fittings.
Promise to keep you all posted ,
With the kindest regards ,
Chris :mrgreen:

 

[Ocean]

I love your local vernacular.

It's so flowery and expressive!

 

[kuma]

I love your local vernacular.

It's so flowery and expressive!

Haha! Cheers! We don't all speak all flowery , the older folk over here sound more like ''arghh bargh cragh , ma love'' , where as the younger townie types sound a lot like the character Vicki Pollard from the telly programe 'Little Britian' , innit ? lol's :lol:
How is everybody today ?
Well I went into town yesterday to try and find out what else I could find out about these fittings.
I went into three antiques shops , two jewelers , and a lighting shop (it caught my eye).
The antiques shops told me that they were very nice pieces , and two of them both valued the lights at £100 the pair , the other didn't make a valuation as I didn't ask.
They wern't interested in buying them as they are slightly more modern , having the brass light fittings in the top.
The guy in the lighting shop also valued them the same , but also wasn't interested in buting tham as he only sells new things.
The jewelers shops didn't have any idea of their value , but one did tell me that she thought that they were gold leaf , the other thought brass.
It was also interesting that two of the antiques shops thought gold , but again one of them thought that it was some form of brass on them.
Neither jeweler could test them for gold for me , which was a supprise. I would have tried more jewelers shops but time was getting on , and in all honestly , I don't like town even on the best of days!
So what I know is that they are desirable , they're worth around £100.00 , and they're not true antiques as they have the brass light fittings in the top.
What I still don't know for sure is wether or not it is actualy gold on them , which is slowly killing me!
So this is my plan me thinks ,....
I have spoken to an antique dealer who is based out in the sticks and we have arranged to meet this weekend for a valuation (this was arranged before I went into town yesterday). He buy's and sells both antique and modern household odd's and sod's , including modern metalwork , brass bronz ect.
He aslo buys scrap silver.
What I am thinking is that wether or not they are golden , bearing in mind that they have been valued at £100 , maybe I am better off trying to trade with him for a few ounces (?) of his scrap sterling silver to process myself , rather than trying to process the pieces (if there is actualy any gold there) for maybe a couple of grams of the yellow stuff.
I'm sorry to ask , buuuut , does anybody actualy have even the faintest idea of what one might expect to be able to recover from processing something like this?
(I'm sorry , I had to throw that out there!)
My only concern is that if he was keen on them he may not trade for scrap silver , as I understand that a lot of the buyers over here save it all for their pre-arranged buyers , who fly over from the U.K. to buy it.
If that is the case , and he does want to buy them , I will either accept his offer and put the money toward some silver coins , bullion , or sterling scrap , or I will reject it and put them into auction , depending.
I'm not looking for bang on £100 , but somthing realistic. At least I know what ball park I'm in now!
Either way , I will get something for my stash out of this , 8)
Will keep you posted guy's ,
All the best for now , and kindest regards ,
Chris

(Edited for spelling)

 

[goldsilverpro]

If it is gold leaf, figure about about 6 cents per square inch. If plating, maybe triple. If it is true ormolu, I have no idea. I would take the 100 pounds and run, unless you can prove it's true ormolu.

 

[nickvc]

I would have tried google for you but I'm in Spain and only have my phone but try looking up antique light fittings and see if there's any shops that sell them. There was one in Ross on Wye and to be honest modern buyers want to be able to use their period features so been converted will sell to interior designers, they have he look but are still functionable in the modern age.

 

[kuma]

If it is gold leaf, figure about about 6 cents per square inch. If plating, maybe triple. If it is true ormolu, I have no idea. I would take the 100 pounds and run, unless you can prove it's true ormolu.

Yeah , that's what I thought! I guess that I'll just get what I can and run! lol 8)

I would have tried google for you but I'm in Spain and only have my phone but try looking up antique light fittings and see if there's any shops that sell them. There was one in Ross on Wye and to be honest modern buyers want to be able to use their period features so been converted will sell to interior designers, they have he look but are still functionable in the modern age.

Haha! I used to live with foster parents in Ross , lovely area but a bit out of my manner at the mo! Lol's , may put it in a local auction then , wish me luck!
Many thanks for the replys everyone , you've been great!
All the best for now and kind regards ,
Chris

 

[MMFJ]

So what I know is that they are desirable , they're worth around £100.00

If that is the case , and he does want to buy them , I will either accept his offer and put the money toward some silver coins , bullion , or sterling scrap , or I will reject it and put them into auction , depending.

Sounds to me like the best, most logical and most profitable plan!

Even if they are GOLD, your experts told you they are worth £100.00 at today's market price.

Take that figure and calculate how much you would have to have on the piece (forget about the time/money/effort of chemical processing, etc. - that just adds on more cost...) to make up for that amount.

Then, taking the other suggestions about calculating the surface area of the pieces (heaven knows how to get an accurate number here!), you can figure up just how thick the plating would have to be to get that much gold in recovery.

My vote would be to grab the cash, and buy a couple rounds (say one in gold/silver and one at the pub?) and be happy, happy happy!