Gold chloride to metallic gold

[Shakir]

All aspects that have been asked on this forum are covered, just not conveniently categorized in a single thread, you will have to puzzle and search for it, then when you think you have found the consensus, there will always be someone that disagree.
We have the entire DNA strand, but it's scattered in pieces over thousands of posts.
One thing we do agree on are proven methods and practices that work, and Misss Hoke's fine work, retouched and updated by Dave if i'm correct.

If you have a specific question about a subject you will get the replies you need. "let's discuss everything" is a bit vague.

Agree totally, Miss Hoke’s work is appreciated, I see it as a key of the gate, now gate is opened and inside are many keyless doors.

 

[Martijn]

One gets lost searching google for the right info, they say carbinate minerals decomposes at 200 C, others say they evaporate at around 300 C !! I, myself, would go with both, I roast the soil and find not well melted bars shaped under the surface (closer to heat resource) but not at the top of the soil!! I have seen evaporation myself when smelting, now that cant be sulfur or sulfides of any kind as the soil was already roasted. I assume its a carbonate ore due to the violent of reaction with any single acid, such a thing happen when an acid reacts with an alkali,, it bubbles ( mostly due to carbon dioxide release),, thats what I see when adding sodium carbonate to an acid,, I have no other way to find out what exactly it is, or what it contains, but experimenting this way

Roasting is done at about 500C, silver melts at about 950 C. That's quite a difference. Are you sure it is silver?
You did not roast very well, you need to have a very thin layer heated to cherry red hot and in contact with air that you keep in motion by stirring it around, while not breathing the fumes.
There are a lot of assumptions in your theory. Kick out the assumptions and try to check and be sure.

 

[Shakir]

Roasting is done at about 500C, silver melts at about 950 C. That's quite a difference. Are you sure it is silver?
You did not roast very well, you need to have a very thin layer heated to cherry red hot and in contact with air that you keep in motion by stirring it around, while not breathing the fumes.
There are a lot of assumptions in your theory. Kick out the assumptions and try to check and be sure.

That is exactly what make me tend to say its silver carbonate, I am sure its silver as I can extract it with any acid, I even melted silver chloride and it was silver !! All I want now is turning gold-silver precipitate into metallic form,, to me, that would be a victory ,, So as you can see I am working on it, I have been testing it for months !! All I need is a little push by someone in this forum

 

[Yggdrasil]

One gets lost searching google for the right info, they say carbinate minerals decomposes at 200 C, others say they evaporate at around 300 C !! I, myself, would go with both, I roast the soil and find not well melted bars shaped under the surface (closer to heat resource) but not at the top of the soil!! I have seen evaporation myself when smelting, now that cant be sulfur or sulfides of any kind as the soil was already roasted. I assume its a carbonate ore due to the violent of reaction with any single acid, such a thing happen when an acid reacts with an alkali,, it bubbles ( mostly due to carbon dioxide release),, thats what I see when adding sodium carbonate to an acid,, I have no other way to find out what exactly it is, or what it contains, but experimenting this way

There are many Carbonates and each one has its own decomposition temperature and rate.
So to say that Carbonates decompose at a certain temperature without saying which Carbonate do not make sense.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Soil treatment is different from electronic parts, minerals come in different complexes in nature, minerals carbonates (for example) dissolve easily in any single acid, you may not believe gold and silver dissolve in hcl alone, but they do!! Now, minerals of that kind does not behave like metallic ones; silver does not precipitate out just by adding hcl to nitric solution that contains silver, leaching such ore dissolve everything no matter what acid is used !! You cant see silver or gold particles in such ore,, its something like the precipitate that comes out of aqua regia, but already made naturally !! To make it clearer; when different metals are in solution, and precipitated out using sodium carbonate, the result would be different minerals carbonates mixed together, and there is no way to leach it, right? Gold chloride, gold nitrate, gold carbonate, gold carbides, gold sulfide .. all are out there, mixed with other minerals .. So, most of techniques and methods mentioned in this forum will not simply work ,, .I am just looking for finding a method that convert gold chloride along with silver chloride into metallic forms before melting,, if there is a way, or anyone has an idea ,, I would be grateful ,,,

Gold Carbonate do not exist in nature. It has been synesized in Labs, but are highly unstable.

 

[Shakir]

There are many Carbonates and each one has its own decomposition temperature and rate.
So to say that Carbonates decompose at a certain temperature without saying which Carbonate do not make sense.

True, my friend, but I look up the two closest minerals to gold, silver and copper, both are in the same range of decomposing and evaporating,, cant find anything about gold carbonate !!

 

[Shakir]

Gold Carbonate do not exist in nature. It has been synesized in Labs, but are highly unstable.

No one can say that for sure, gold does not dissolve in sulfuric acid in labs, but it does in nature !! Salts of all kinds are there in nature, they precipitate out minerals from solutions coming up from down beneath,, science is still crawling my friend,, If I told you that gold can be also found in trees, would you believe me? I bet you would not, but its there and also other minerals.

 

[Yggdrasil]

No one can say that for sure, gold does not dissolve in sulfuric acid in labs, but it does in nature !! Salts of all kinds are there in nature, they precipitate out minerals from solutions coming up from down beneath,, science is still crawling my friend,, If I told you that gold can be also found in trees, would you believe me? I bet you would not, but its there and also other minerals.

Even water dissolves Gold in the pressures and temperatures in the deep crust and magma.
But now we are talking about surface conditions.
Any mineral on the surface will be in small quantities any where on he surface.
And science is not crawling regarding the non organic chemistry.
Sure there are things to discover still, but most is well known and documented for any condition on the surface
and most of the conditions below.

So get to your studies.
Regarding your soil, are there any reason to expect precious metals in there.
Historic or other wise?

 

[Shakir]

Even water dissolves Gold in the pressures and temperatures in the deep crust and magma.
But now we are talking about surface conditions.
Any mineral on the surface will be in small quantities any where on he surface.
And science is not crawling regarding the non organic chemistry.
Sure there are things to discover still, but most is well known and documented for any condition on the surface
and most of the conditions below.

So get to your studies.
Regarding your soil, are there any reason to expect precious metals in there.
Historic or other wise?

Yes, I extracted 150 grams of silver out of one kilogram of soil, when silver is there, gold is there 99%,, I dont really rely on what science says 100%, I just thought; if we can precipitate metals out of acidic solutions, then it should be out there naturally .. I just proved my hypothesis precipitating out silver,, Since silver chloride is a white salt, I tested a drop of the solution adding SMB and it turns brown, I dont think iron can be precipitated out with SMB, but to make sure, I used copper to precipitate whatever is there, and the resulted precipitate was yellowish brown .. that means the brown precipitate could be gold,, or any of PMG .. as copper does not precipitate more reactive metals like iron,, All are logical inferences .. connecting dots. Now, I know that sodium hydroxide combines with silver chloride to make sodium chloride and silver oxide,, WHAT DOES SUGAR DO EXACTLY? If I am correct, it repels oxygen away from silver leaving it as metallic!! If that is true, then gold chloride can be converted the same way, unless there is something else I know nothing about!!

 

[Yggdrasil]

Yes, I extracted 150 grams of silver out of one kilogram of soil, when silver is there, gold is there 99%,, I dont really rely on what science says 100%, I just thought; if we can precipitate metals out of acidic solutions, then it should be out there naturally .. I just proved my hypothesis precipitating out silver,, Since silver chloride is a white salt, I tested a drop of the solution adding SMB and it turns brown, I dont think iron can be precipitated out with SMB, but to make sure, I used copper to precipitate whatever is there, and the resulted precipitate was yellowish brown .. that means the brown precipitate could be gold,, or any of PMG .. as copper does not precipitate more reactive metals like iron,, All are logical inferences .. connecting dots. Now, I know that sodium hydroxide combines with silver chloride to make sodium chloride and silver oxide,, WHAT DOES SUGAR DO EXACTLY? If I am correct, it repels oxygen away from silver leaving it as metallic!! If that is true, then gold chloride can be converted the same way, unless there is something else I know nothing about!!

Silver do not precipitate with SMB.

Your post do not make sense.
Can you please describe step by step what you are doing?

 

[Shakir]

Silver do not precipitate with SMB.

Your post do not make sense.
Can you please describe step by step what you are doing?

I told you already, minerals of such ore behave differently, who heard of gold or silver dissolve in hcl? But here is what I exactly do;
1- I grind the ore into a powder.
2- roast it on fire for 20+ minutes (it turns from yellowish brown into dark brown)
3- I add small quantities of hcl (or any other acid) (although weather is so cold, and acid also cold) make that in a deep bucket as reaction is so vigorous and the whole thing rises bubbling nearly to the top!!
4- I keep adding hcl until there is no more reaction( 1 kg of soil takes about 1250 ml of hcl)
5- filter out the solution
6- Precipitation; if I add SMB or iron sulfate ,, silver precipitates out (cold solution) ,,,, If copper wires are added while heating continuously, yellow brownish precipitate is out
7- as for silver precipitate; I rinse it many times with hot distilled water, add sodium hydroxide until it turns black, add sugar until everything gets gray .. I melt it eadily into silver bar .
8- as for the yellowish brown precipitate; after filtration and rinsing with hot water many times, i dry it and roast it ,, but when melting it, it turns black slag when adding borax, or stay brown slag without borax.
Thats it, my friend.

 

[Martijn]

One gets lost searching google for the right info, they say carbinate minerals decomposes at 200 C, others say they evaporate at around 300 C !! I, myself, would go with both, I roast the soil and find not well melted bars shaped under the surface (closer to heat resource) but not at the top of the soil!! I have seen evaporation myself when smelting, now that cant be sulfur or sulfides of any kind as the soil was already roasted. I assume its a carbonate ore due to the violent of reaction with any single acid, such a thing happen when an acid reacts with an alkali,, it bubbles ( mostly due to carbon dioxide release),, thats what I see when adding sodium carbonate to an acid,, I have no other way to find out what exactly it is, or what it contains, but experimenting this way

They say: Again, who? sources, unless you can provide them, we can't fact check or debunk.
I, myself, would go with both: guessing is not advisable in chemistry.
I have seen evaporation myself when smelting, what does evaporated silver look like? Or did you see smoke?
I assume: don't even go there. ASS.U.ME

That is exactly what make me tend to say its silver carbonate, I am sure its silver as I can extract it with any acid, I even melted silver chloride and it was silver !! All I want now is turning gold-silver precipitate into metallic form,, to me, that would be a victory ,, So as you can see I am working on it, I have been testing it for months !! All I need is a little push by someone in this forum

Which acids? HCl including?

We need to back to the beginning. Your level of understanding is making you jump to conclusions and going for unlikely long shots. (gold carbonate, recoverable amounts of silver chloride in solution)

What kind of ore do you have and why do you think there is value in it?

This is the first question any potential partner will ask you to determine you have gold or -fever. Or he will be close enough to come over and have a look.

 

[Martijn]

I told you already, minerals of such ore behave differently, who heard of gold or silver dissolve in hcl?

Nobody has ever heard of that, because they won't, you don't have gold or silver, but fever. i assume

 

[Yggdrasil]

I told you already, minerals of such ore behave differently, who heard of gold or silver dissolve in hcl? But here is what I exactly do;
1- I grind the ore into a powder.
2- roast it on fire for 20+ minutes (it turns from yellowish brown into dark brown)
3- I add small quantities of hcl (or any other acid) (although weather is so cold, and acid also cold) make that in a deep bucket as reaction is so vigorous and the whole thing rises bubbling nearly to the top!!
4- I keep adding hcl until there is no more reaction( 1 kg of soil takes about 1250 ml of hcl)
5- filter out the solution
6- Precipitation; if I add SMB or iron sulfate ,, silver precipitates out (cold solution) ,,,, If copper wires are added while heating continuously, yellow brownish precipitate is out
7- as for silver precipitate; I rinse it many times with hot distilled water, add sodium hydroxide until it turns black, add sugar until everything gets gray .. I melt it eadily into silver bar .
8- as for the yellowish brown precipitate; after filtration and rinsing with hot water many times, i dry it and roast it ,, but when melting it, it turns black slag when adding borax, or stay brown slag without borax.
Thats it, my friend.

No Gold or Silver will dissolve in HCl alone.
Gold can dissolve in HCl and an Oxidizer.
Silver will not dissolve at all in any Chloride media, it will form Silver Chloride and stop there.
Silver is not in solution so it will not precipitate anyhow and SMB has no mechanism to my knowledge
that precipitates any silver form any solution.
Point 8 says it all, it is just salts of some kind.
Gold melts relatively easy and will coalesce in Borax or without Borax since it reacts with nothing much at all.

Now put your Chemicals away and start studying the links and forum.
Then read the book Torch assaying in the library, then you can do your own assay.
After you have studied you can present a plan and we will guide you through it.

 

[Shakir]

Nobody has ever heard of that, because they won't, you don't have gold or silver, but fever. i assume

Experimenting depends on assumptions, theories were hypotheses once, hypotheses were ass sum ptions before that

 

[Shakir]

No Gold or Silver will dissolve in HCl alone.
Gold can dissolve in HCl and an Oxidizer.
Silver will not dissolve at all in any Chloride media, it will form Silver Chloride and stop there.
Silver is not in solution so it will not precipitate anyhow and SMB has no mechanism to my knowledge
that precipitates any silver form any solution.
Point 8 says it all, it is just salts of some kind.
Gold melts relatively easy and will coalesce in Borax or without Borax since it reacts with nothing much at all.

Now put your Chemicals away and start studying the links and forum.
Then read the book Torch assaying in the library, then you can do your own assay.
After you have studied you can present a plan and we will guide you through it.

Forget it man, sorry for asking one single simple question, that no one can answer

 

[Yggdrasil]

Forget it man, sorry for asking one single simple question, that no one can answer

I have told you now, why your simple question can not be answered.
Maybe a complicated well formulated question can be answered by an easy answer.
But no simple question with unclear background can have a simple answer in refining.
We actually have a long thread about that.
So the answer will be: Something......, but something else ......

 

[Martijn]

Forget it man, sorry for asking one single simple question, that no one can answer

Hi everyone, One straight question for experts; Can gold chloride be converted to metallic gold using sodium hydroxide and sugar “ the same method of silver chloride conversion”? Thank you.

Welcome to us.
Where did you find this Idea?
No, would be my answer.

You had your answer, it's no, that does not work.
But then you went on to carbonates and more side tracks.
like "I roasted..." no, you obviously melted parts of it. Far exceeding roasting temperatures. So you did not roast! There was roasting involved, but others things also happened.

Experimenting depends on assumptions, theories were hypotheses once, hypotheses were ass sum ptions before that

No, it does not. Experimenting is done in a scientific way changing one variable and noting the effect, then repeating it a 100 times to make sure it is reproducible, and then present it to-, and get consensus from the scientific community, it is not done by amateurs who still need to learn the basics of chemistry and are looking for wild explanations for things they think they see happening, but do not understand.

Experimenting is done to confirm or expose an expected effect or property of a substance, based on scientific theory, often discovering other properties that can be used in ways no one ever could have expected.

Assumptions mean: jumping to conclusions without doing the necessary research and continuing on that assumption from there. Big difference.

 

[Shakir]

I have told you now, why your simple question can not be answered.
Maybe a complicated well formulated question can be answered by an easy answer.
But no simple question with unclear background can have a simple answer in refining.
We actually have a long thread about that.
So the answer will be: Something......, but something else ......

Its ok, new ideas normally look weird,

 

[Shakir]

You had your answer, it's no, that does not work.
But then you went on to carbonates and more side tracks.
like "I roasted..." no, you obviously melted parts of it. Far exceeding roasting temperatures. So you did not roast! There was roasting involved, but others things also happened.


No, it does not. Experimenting is done in a scientific way changing one variable and noting the effect, then repeating it a 100 times to make sure it is reproducible, and then present it to-, and get consensus from the scientific community, it is not done by amateurs who still need to learn the basics of chemistry and are looking for wild explanations for things they think they see happening, but do not understand.

Experimenting is done to confirm or expose an expected effect or property of a substance, based on scientific theory, often discovering other properties that can be used in ways no one ever could have expected.

Assumptions mean: jumping to conclusions without doing the necessary research and continuing on that assumption from there. Big difference.

So, you make an experiment without an assumption? I bet you hate that word
Anyway; can you explain why gold chloride cant be converted into metallic gold using lye-sugar method?