I have been doing gold refining but still have not been able to obtain precitated gold although it is present in the Aqua regia... I have removed nitric acid by H2SO4 and heat black precipitate form and when melted with LPG from gold smith nothing formed. I have also used HCL/Hypochlorite to dissolve gold but same results happen. I have used sodium metabisulfite for precipitating please help me.... i have tried many times but in vain....
Gold refining help from e scrap
- Thread starter kashiffat
- Start date
Help Support Gold Refining Forum:
Hi!
I have little 2gram button from an experiment i did . I refined some powder from a waste bucket,dropped the gold with 6grams of smb. the powder was very dark brown, almost black and the solution had a bluish hugh. it wouldn't clean up with washing. I redisolved it HCl/Cl, added smb again, same result, dirty powder.
Now, I did it a third time to see if too much smb was dragging down other metals along with the gold. this time I added 2grams smb and it dropped nice tan gold powder, about two grams
It is important to use the right amount of smb for the amount of gold that is in the solution. per-haps that may be your problem.
good luck.
artart47
I have little 2gram button from an experiment i did . I refined some powder from a waste bucket,dropped the gold with 6grams of smb. the powder was very dark brown, almost black and the solution had a bluish hugh. it wouldn't clean up with washing. I redisolved it HCl/Cl, added smb again, same result, dirty powder.
Now, I did it a third time to see if too much smb was dragging down other metals along with the gold. this time I added 2grams smb and it dropped nice tan gold powder, about two grams
It is important to use the right amount of smb for the amount of gold that is in the solution. per-haps that may be your problem.
good luck.
artart47
necromancer
Well-known member
now there is a fantastic question.................................
maybe someone will be willing to come to your place and do it for you, you can video tape them for later viewing !!!!!
maybe someone will be willing to come to your place and do it for you, you can video tape them for later viewing !!!!!
necromancer
Well-known member
kashiffat said:
there are many videos + texts + tutorials on this site to make you an expert (in time), please take the time to read some of the 173,251 posts that are here. there are also many links to free books, free video,
enjoy your time here !! there is much goodwill here, its your job to "search, read and learn"
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=17653#p178716
edit: added link
kashiffat,
There is so many different ways to do something wrong, there are only a few way to do it right.
but the problem of giving you the kind of answer to the question you ask, is it would take us writing books of information, just to tell you how to do one type of scrap,and even if we wrote those books, it still would not help you learn how to recover and refine your scrap, or other types of scrap, because you would still not understand everything we wrote in the books, until you learned this language we speak and understand what we are talking about.
someone could write you a two book process of how to get, process and recover gold, and then how to refine it to high purity, but if you tried it, you still would not be able to do it.why? because you would not understand the fine details of those steps, why we do things, what happens when you do things, how the metals and acids react with each other and how to know when something is happening that you cannot see, so when something in your process reaction was just a tiny bit different then the way we wrote it in the book on page 267, you would not know how to change the process, you would keep trying to follow what we wrote, but everything from that point would be wrong, Why the process of gold and chemicals does not just follow the book, your reaction may differ from the book, so even if you follow everything in the book it still would not work.
So then how in the How in the Well do you learn to recover and refine gold, if you cannot do it by just following instructions from a book.
You Study, you read the book, not to follow instructions, but to gain an understanding, you do experiments that are in the book, to see for yourself what the book is saying, you begin to see what the whole book is saying, not just what it says on each page, but you get an understanding of the whole Idea of the book,also you learn what to do and what not to do, you gain an understanding of how things work, why they work, in any circumstance, and how to get out of most any problem you get into, this is something you can learn from studying books and the forum, and from your own experience, but then this is something you cannot explain to someone in a post or in a book, it is just something you learned by studying reading books and the forum and experimentation. I can write in a book how to build a big house out of wood and stone, but if you have not the skill already, you cannot follow my book and be able to build the same house, there is skill and knowledge you also need along with the book, and understand many principles of how things work.
so to gain this knowledge you can learn it from the books,and the forum, and build your skills and understanding from practicing what you learn in the books and on the forum, you will not be able to build your castle over night, it takes time to learn all of those principles,and be able to understand them, but if you study and work hard, little by little you will learn to build castles, but then when another man comes to you years later and says to you, tell me simple instruction of how to build the castles, (what then could you tell him?) Would you tell him to begin his study with Hoke's book and would you tell him to do the experiments in the book, and to study the forum?
Or would you right a book on how to dig the ground, break and cut rocks and wood, and tell him how to stack the rocks to make the castle, could you spend all of the time needed to show him how to build the castle, and explain every detail or put it in a book he could understand, could you show him how to do something that took you so many years to learn, could you teach him everything he would have to know in one day, or in one book.
This is a skill, an art, and a science it takes time to learn. it is not something that has simple instructions to follow that can just be written in one post to follow, to be able to remove gold from scrap, and to melt pure gold.
It is a skill that takes time to learn.
There is so many different ways to do something wrong, there are only a few way to do it right.
but the problem of giving you the kind of answer to the question you ask, is it would take us writing books of information, just to tell you how to do one type of scrap,and even if we wrote those books, it still would not help you learn how to recover and refine your scrap, or other types of scrap, because you would still not understand everything we wrote in the books, until you learned this language we speak and understand what we are talking about.
someone could write you a two book process of how to get, process and recover gold, and then how to refine it to high purity, but if you tried it, you still would not be able to do it.why? because you would not understand the fine details of those steps, why we do things, what happens when you do things, how the metals and acids react with each other and how to know when something is happening that you cannot see, so when something in your process reaction was just a tiny bit different then the way we wrote it in the book on page 267, you would not know how to change the process, you would keep trying to follow what we wrote, but everything from that point would be wrong, Why the process of gold and chemicals does not just follow the book, your reaction may differ from the book, so even if you follow everything in the book it still would not work.
So then how in the How in the Well do you learn to recover and refine gold, if you cannot do it by just following instructions from a book.
You Study, you read the book, not to follow instructions, but to gain an understanding, you do experiments that are in the book, to see for yourself what the book is saying, you begin to see what the whole book is saying, not just what it says on each page, but you get an understanding of the whole Idea of the book,also you learn what to do and what not to do, you gain an understanding of how things work, why they work, in any circumstance, and how to get out of most any problem you get into, this is something you can learn from studying books and the forum, and from your own experience, but then this is something you cannot explain to someone in a post or in a book, it is just something you learned by studying reading books and the forum and experimentation. I can write in a book how to build a big house out of wood and stone, but if you have not the skill already, you cannot follow my book and be able to build the same house, there is skill and knowledge you also need along with the book, and understand many principles of how things work.
so to gain this knowledge you can learn it from the books,and the forum, and build your skills and understanding from practicing what you learn in the books and on the forum, you will not be able to build your castle over night, it takes time to learn all of those principles,and be able to understand them, but if you study and work hard, little by little you will learn to build castles, but then when another man comes to you years later and says to you, tell me simple instruction of how to build the castles, (what then could you tell him?) Would you tell him to begin his study with Hoke's book and would you tell him to do the experiments in the book, and to study the forum?
Or would you right a book on how to dig the ground, break and cut rocks and wood, and tell him how to stack the rocks to make the castle, could you spend all of the time needed to show him how to build the castle, and explain every detail or put it in a book he could understand, could you show him how to do something that took you so many years to learn, could you teach him everything he would have to know in one day, or in one book.
This is a skill, an art, and a science it takes time to learn. it is not something that has simple instructions to follow that can just be written in one post to follow, to be able to remove gold from scrap, and to melt pure gold.
It is a skill that takes time to learn.
solar_plasma
Well-known member
Keep your solution and your preciptate, the gold will not disappear and try something easier for the beginning. And read. This place is full of treasures of knowledge, each day I find new items of interest in this forum.
mrsanders02
Member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2012
- Messages
- 10
I started reading this forum about 4 months ago, started test tube size experiments shortly after.
Every type of scrap behaves differently, sometimesnot the way you expected.
There is so much info here it is hard to absorb it all, and the people here are helpful, but it is not up to them to do your work for you.
This stuff can be a lot of fun, I hope someday it may be some dollar profit, but the true profit is in the learning. Do the reading, do the work,learn,
then do the processing. You will be better off .
Every type of scrap behaves differently, sometimesnot the way you expected.
There is so much info here it is hard to absorb it all, and the people here are helpful, but it is not up to them to do your work for you.
This stuff can be a lot of fun, I hope someday it may be some dollar profit, but the true profit is in the learning. Do the reading, do the work,learn,
then do the processing. You will be better off .
Dear ALL new bies and oldies......
Method is described here which others mock and shun to tell...
1- Use HCl to remove solder which will also form SnCl2 which will be used to detect the presence of gold in aqua regia or anyother dissolving solution.
2- Then add HNO3 after removing HCl to dissolve copper and silver.
3- after that filter the content and dissolve in aqua regia or HCl/HCLO4
4- And use SMB to precipitate Gold.
Note: HNO3 must be removed if you use aqua regia for dissolving although in case of HCl/hypochlorite you dont need that all the excess thing will be liberated in the form of chlorine gas. if HNO3 is not removed your gold will never precipitate.
Use SMB as per requirement dont use excessive amount of it. Reaction takes bit time dont be hurry and worry.
All these are basic steps to form gold so enjoy ..... and pray for my success if you get knowldge , help and sucess from this thing keep on posting your views..
Method is described here which others mock and shun to tell...
1- Use HCl to remove solder which will also form SnCl2 which will be used to detect the presence of gold in aqua regia or anyother dissolving solution.
2- Then add HNO3 after removing HCl to dissolve copper and silver.
3- after that filter the content and dissolve in aqua regia or HCl/HCLO4
4- And use SMB to precipitate Gold.
Note: HNO3 must be removed if you use aqua regia for dissolving although in case of HCl/hypochlorite you dont need that all the excess thing will be liberated in the form of chlorine gas. if HNO3 is not removed your gold will never precipitate.
Use SMB as per requirement dont use excessive amount of it. Reaction takes bit time dont be hurry and worry.
All these are basic steps to form gold so enjoy ..... and pray for my success if you get knowldge , help and sucess from this thing keep on posting your views..
Stannous chloride will detect gold in acidic solutions. I will not work on basic solutions, e.g., a cyanide leach.kashiffat said:
Unless you incinerate after the HCl, you will form a weak solution of AR and you may dissolve a bit of gold along with your base metals.
I'm not familiar with the HCl/HClO4 (Hydrochloric acid and Perchloric acid) method. Do you mean Hydrochloric acid/Bleach (HCl/NaClO)?
Dave
kashiffat,
You posted something someone wrote, I do not know if you wrote it or you found it someplace.
we could post a page or a process from Hoke's book, one that is known well to work, reading it is easy, but doing it can be a different story, if you did not have an understanding and the basic skills needed.
This is a little hard to explain, processing is not just reading instructions, and following them, you also have to understand what you are doing and why, many times you may read or hear someone describe a process, but in the description they may not state every detail needed, as they may assume you can already process and have a fairly good understanding of how, You already have a basic understanding of all of the principles you need to do this, you already have some skills in the art,so they may not give small details in the process, they may not explain basic principles, or tell you what could happen in every stage of the process, where a solution may boil-over if you do not do that one right, and how you could loose all of the gold doing that one step, basically this is not just a follow the step process, to recover or refine gold, it is gaining an understanding, of how things work and why, so when something is different that the recipe you are trying to follow comes up you know how to deal with it, or you have the understanding and skill to process, and understand what needs to be done if a step is not written down in the recipe, or if things are not the same you really do not need a recipe to know what you need to do next, and if you come upon a problem you recognize it and understand or can figure how to fix it.
This understanding and skill is gained by study and practice, it cannot be written into the recipe, or given in instructions, it is kind of like troubleshooting skills, you can show someone how something works, you can tell them how the parts work. and where they are, but you really cannot tell someone how to trouble shoot, it is a skill, and must be gained, every situation can be different, I have seen many trouble shooting charts written, but I never seen one that was worth the paper it was written on, trouble shooting is a skill and an understanding, trying to follow a troubleshooting chart someone wrote would probably just lead you a long way away from the real problem, one that can be easily recognized or found with a few good troubleshooting skills
I do not know if you work on cars, but say I was telling you how to fix your truck, you needed to fix the throw out bearing, I may tell you to jack it up and pull the transmission. I am assuming you know what the transmission is and you already know how to remove one, I am also assuming you have done enough mechanic work to do this, so I may not go into the small detail.
I do not know where you got the procedure you posted, I see many things in it I did not agree with, just to name a few, I do not see what the material is that the person is working on, how the material was processed first, how the gold bearing materials were separated, from none gold material, how parts were separated in a per-process stage, no mention of material type Karat gold, or circuit boards, either one if done with this process would not work the way it is written,
I do not like the idea stated of using the dirty solution from dissolving tin lead and other base metals and trash, to make your stannous chloride testing solution, if I have gold in solution, which has considerable value, why would I use this trash to test for value, and rely on it.
Incineration, depending on the material, may also have been needed as a pretreatment to burn of oils or other trash, and as stated above when changing acid it is also needed in certain circumstances like here.
I see no mention of testing for values, minimum use of solutions or preparing for precipitation, things like removing oxidizers, lead removal, silver removal, filtering and so on...
I do not think anyone is mocking the process, I do not see what was written there as a process.
You posted something someone wrote, I do not know if you wrote it or you found it someplace.
we could post a page or a process from Hoke's book, one that is known well to work, reading it is easy, but doing it can be a different story, if you did not have an understanding and the basic skills needed.
This is a little hard to explain, processing is not just reading instructions, and following them, you also have to understand what you are doing and why, many times you may read or hear someone describe a process, but in the description they may not state every detail needed, as they may assume you can already process and have a fairly good understanding of how, You already have a basic understanding of all of the principles you need to do this, you already have some skills in the art,so they may not give small details in the process, they may not explain basic principles, or tell you what could happen in every stage of the process, where a solution may boil-over if you do not do that one right, and how you could loose all of the gold doing that one step, basically this is not just a follow the step process, to recover or refine gold, it is gaining an understanding, of how things work and why, so when something is different that the recipe you are trying to follow comes up you know how to deal with it, or you have the understanding and skill to process, and understand what needs to be done if a step is not written down in the recipe, or if things are not the same you really do not need a recipe to know what you need to do next, and if you come upon a problem you recognize it and understand or can figure how to fix it.
This understanding and skill is gained by study and practice, it cannot be written into the recipe, or given in instructions, it is kind of like troubleshooting skills, you can show someone how something works, you can tell them how the parts work. and where they are, but you really cannot tell someone how to trouble shoot, it is a skill, and must be gained, every situation can be different, I have seen many trouble shooting charts written, but I never seen one that was worth the paper it was written on, trouble shooting is a skill and an understanding, trying to follow a troubleshooting chart someone wrote would probably just lead you a long way away from the real problem, one that can be easily recognized or found with a few good troubleshooting skills
I do not know if you work on cars, but say I was telling you how to fix your truck, you needed to fix the throw out bearing, I may tell you to jack it up and pull the transmission. I am assuming you know what the transmission is and you already know how to remove one, I am also assuming you have done enough mechanic work to do this, so I may not go into the small detail.
I do not know where you got the procedure you posted, I see many things in it I did not agree with, just to name a few, I do not see what the material is that the person is working on, how the material was processed first, how the gold bearing materials were separated, from none gold material, how parts were separated in a per-process stage, no mention of material type Karat gold, or circuit boards, either one if done with this process would not work the way it is written,
I do not like the idea stated of using the dirty solution from dissolving tin lead and other base metals and trash, to make your stannous chloride testing solution, if I have gold in solution, which has considerable value, why would I use this trash to test for value, and rely on it.
Incineration, depending on the material, may also have been needed as a pretreatment to burn of oils or other trash, and as stated above when changing acid it is also needed in certain circumstances like here.
I see no mention of testing for values, minimum use of solutions or preparing for precipitation, things like removing oxidizers, lead removal, silver removal, filtering and so on...
I do not think anyone is mocking the process, I do not see what was written there as a process.
How to rid nitric acid from aqua regia before precipitating gold.
1. Do not use more nitric than needed.
You first remove base metals, to get almost pure gold, you determine how much gold you have to dissolve, you use the formula in Hoke’s book to determine how much HCl will be needed, you add this HCl to the gold, then you measure out how much HNO3 you expect to use in another clean vessel, you add small amounts to the heated HCl and gold, as the reaction works you add small increments of nitric giving it time to react, as you are doing this the solution will vapor and concentrate, the acids action on the gold gets stronger, the goal I try to achieve is having the solution fairly concentrated and most of the gold dissolved before I get close to using up the calculated amount of nitric, I will use a pipette do dispense the HNO3, the last needed is only added to fairly concentrated solution in drops, heat and time given to see if gold is still being dissolved, now I can leave a little bit of undissolved gold (for the next run, this when solution has been concentrated would insure I used up all of the nitric in solution, or I can carefully dissolve the last of this gold. I will be almost a syrup at this point, if not I will keep evaporating towards this, adding some H2SO4 sulfuric acid just a few milliliters at this point will be helpful, if I mess up and concentrate too far I will not form salts and burn the gold (the H2SO4 will not evaporate even if I cooked out the HCl), the sulfuric will help later as any lead would become insoluble sulfate, now my solution has been evaporated from a bright yellow color and has become an orange or almost red color, indicating it is very concentrated, here I will add a few ml of HCl to re-wet the solution diluting it and making sure gold has plenty of chlorides (this will do several things it dilutes it the acid is mostly water, so I will need to vapor off this water then if HNO3 was still in solution it would vapor off after water, then the HCl concentrates to supply more chloride to gold if needed, I will do this one more time, before lowering heat and adding 3 to 4 times the volume of water and letting solution settle and decant to clean vessel, this solution will sit overnight covered with a watch glass (silver in the dilute solution will precipitate out also any lead sulfate if it is involved) solution will be cleared and can be filtered. (Using minimum acid I credit GSP for teaching this trick).
2. Beside leaving a little undissolved gold as I did above, before solution was diluted during evaporation you can add a button of previously refined gold (this could be a little gold you wish to refine the second time, this is a trick of Harold's, that works great when you have excess nitric, the gold consumes the nitric and gets refined.
3. Sulfamic acid works very well to destroy nitric acid, the solutions byproduct is sulfuric acid, which works like what was stated above.
4. Urea use it on your flowers, as far as I am concerned it is dangerous to use in refining, just adds more trash to the gold will not work that well (especially if you overuse HNO3), I say urea has no use in refining gold.
5. I use a combination of the processes above.
6. Some important details in my opinion, the better you removed base metal, not only will your gold be more pure but you will have less trouble, tin is a thief if any is dissolved with your gold, you need to deal with it long before you put gold in solution, your gold should be washed per Harold's gold washing procedures (see getting your gold pure and shining), use the wash procedure on your on my gold powders, also re-refine your gold powders a second time with a second gold wash, before drying and melting.
7.Hokes book Read it, she state's it takes about 4 fluid ounces of HCl and 1 fluid ounce of HNO3 per troy ounce of gold, this equates to about, 118.20ml HCl and 29.57ml per 31.103grams (one troy ounce of gold), so from this with a little math we can get approximately 3.8ml HCl +0.95ml HNO3 per gram of gold, take note of how a very small amount of acid is needed to dissolve a large amount of gold
8, Read Hoke's book, study the forum.
9. Read Hoke's book again, and study the forum more.
10. Keep reading studying Hoke's and the forum. And practice what you have been learning.
1. Do not use more nitric than needed.
You first remove base metals, to get almost pure gold, you determine how much gold you have to dissolve, you use the formula in Hoke’s book to determine how much HCl will be needed, you add this HCl to the gold, then you measure out how much HNO3 you expect to use in another clean vessel, you add small amounts to the heated HCl and gold, as the reaction works you add small increments of nitric giving it time to react, as you are doing this the solution will vapor and concentrate, the acids action on the gold gets stronger, the goal I try to achieve is having the solution fairly concentrated and most of the gold dissolved before I get close to using up the calculated amount of nitric, I will use a pipette do dispense the HNO3, the last needed is only added to fairly concentrated solution in drops, heat and time given to see if gold is still being dissolved, now I can leave a little bit of undissolved gold (for the next run, this when solution has been concentrated would insure I used up all of the nitric in solution, or I can carefully dissolve the last of this gold. I will be almost a syrup at this point, if not I will keep evaporating towards this, adding some H2SO4 sulfuric acid just a few milliliters at this point will be helpful, if I mess up and concentrate too far I will not form salts and burn the gold (the H2SO4 will not evaporate even if I cooked out the HCl), the sulfuric will help later as any lead would become insoluble sulfate, now my solution has been evaporated from a bright yellow color and has become an orange or almost red color, indicating it is very concentrated, here I will add a few ml of HCl to re-wet the solution diluting it and making sure gold has plenty of chlorides (this will do several things it dilutes it the acid is mostly water, so I will need to vapor off this water then if HNO3 was still in solution it would vapor off after water, then the HCl concentrates to supply more chloride to gold if needed, I will do this one more time, before lowering heat and adding 3 to 4 times the volume of water and letting solution settle and decant to clean vessel, this solution will sit overnight covered with a watch glass (silver in the dilute solution will precipitate out also any lead sulfate if it is involved) solution will be cleared and can be filtered. (Using minimum acid I credit GSP for teaching this trick).
2. Beside leaving a little undissolved gold as I did above, before solution was diluted during evaporation you can add a button of previously refined gold (this could be a little gold you wish to refine the second time, this is a trick of Harold's, that works great when you have excess nitric, the gold consumes the nitric and gets refined.
3. Sulfamic acid works very well to destroy nitric acid, the solutions byproduct is sulfuric acid, which works like what was stated above.
4. Urea use it on your flowers, as far as I am concerned it is dangerous to use in refining, just adds more trash to the gold will not work that well (especially if you overuse HNO3), I say urea has no use in refining gold.
5. I use a combination of the processes above.
6. Some important details in my opinion, the better you removed base metal, not only will your gold be more pure but you will have less trouble, tin is a thief if any is dissolved with your gold, you need to deal with it long before you put gold in solution, your gold should be washed per Harold's gold washing procedures (see getting your gold pure and shining), use the wash procedure on your on my gold powders, also re-refine your gold powders a second time with a second gold wash, before drying and melting.
7.Hokes book Read it, she state's it takes about 4 fluid ounces of HCl and 1 fluid ounce of HNO3 per troy ounce of gold, this equates to about, 118.20ml HCl and 29.57ml per 31.103grams (one troy ounce of gold), so from this with a little math we can get approximately 3.8ml HCl +0.95ml HNO3 per gram of gold, take note of how a very small amount of acid is needed to dissolve a large amount of gold
8, Read Hoke's book, study the forum.
9. Read Hoke's book again, and study the forum more.
10. Keep reading studying Hoke's and the forum. And practice what you have been learning.
You read Hoke and read someones instructions on the forum, either way you HAVE to read. Saying you don't want to read is absurd. Start with Hoke, get your foundation laid and study the forum for cleanup details if you run into problems. Hoke is your instruction manual, the forum is great help from knowledgeable folks who are more than willing to help. Start with the acquaintance tests in HOKES book. You will learn a lot from them. Also study the forum posts already written. I know that PALLADIUM has a post for dealing with e waste boards. It starts with hcl, moves to AP, and so on. Use the search button, PALLADIUM has explained it very well. All the best, Jonn.
