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Electrochemistry Graphite for electrodes.

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GotTheBug

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
373
Seems like a good deal. Found a place on ebay supposedly liquidating some graphite blocks for those interested.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/itesm20811/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=

Having so much fun realizing graphite is probably the only thing I can use for a cathode that will not degrade in minutes.
Other ideas are certainly welcome.

Before you ask - running a different cell inspired by DallasGoldbug using hcl. Max output on power source is 6.5 volts at 200 amps, though I have found that running at half power does not heat things
up so quickly.
 
I've been interested in electrowinning so I've been doing some research on inert anodes. I've found some interesting things so far. Here is a good video about how to get a graphite electrode.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knc1lSupAwQ
Here is a video how to coat a graphite electrode with lead dioxide to make it even more chemically resistant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0L7uqZRFUQ
That guy's channel has a lot of videos about the same subject. Unfortunately his methods require equipment I don't have so I kept looking and found this.
http://www.oocities.org/capecanaveral/campus/5361/chlorate/leaddiox/plastic.html
So far this option seems the easiest and cheapest. I think I'll give it a try at some point.

Edit: If you need a lot of graphite it seems like the ebay auction would be a lot cheaper then buying a bunch of batteries.
 
A graphite anode for a winning cell does work - however the bubbles that are formed at the anode erodes the graphite which limits the use/life of the anode which means replacement so it needs to be high density graphite to start with & in my opinion is only good for trial experimenting with electro winning

if you intend to set up electro winning for frequent or continual or large batch electro winning you are better served to invest in a titanium anode - it will last forever

Kurt
 
I will start looking for titanium locally asap. To be clear, the electrode where the + charge enters the cell. It seems like everyone has their own opinion about which to call anode or cathode and it seems to get into the "which way is current flowing" debate. :)

To throw my slight knowledge into the "base" here, nothing so far stands up to 3 volts at approximately 100 amps for very long in dilute HCl. The copper was plating nicely onto the "other" side, with very little ill effect. However, the + side of my arrangement is simply brutal, as in consuming stainless in a few minutes.

So titanium it shall be!

Thank You guys for the input, SO love this forum.
 
"The electrode where the + charge enters the cell. It seems like everyone has their own opinion about which to call anode or cathode and it seems to get into the "which way is current flowing" debate."

Actually there is no debate.

Current flows in only one direction in an electrical circuit.
Although there are two different theories that can be used to understand, or describe this flow, of which direction this flow is, depending on which theory you choose to use, hole theory, or conventional electron flow theory, or depending on which theory you use to describe this flow of electrons in a circuit.
Either theory is correct, but you need to pick one or the other to use, and understand which theory an author is using when describing how the circuit works, so you can keep things straight in your own mind if he uses a different theory than you do.
It is a bit confusing at times.


There are different types of cells, a battery is a good example of this, the electrodes names of anode and the cathode can have different names depending on the cell type (in a battery depending on if the battery is discharging or charging), basically it is two different types of cells depending on charging or discharging, with different names to the electrodes}.
Oxidation occurs at the anode.
Reduction occurs at the cathode.



An electrolytic cell and galvanic cell, the electrodes can be name differently.
Again this can be confusing until you understand it better.

The fact is.
Oxidation occurs at the anode.
Reduction occurs at the cathode.

When you are dealing with electrolytic cells.
The anode is the + side electrode where oxidation of the metal occurs (where the metal will be oxidized, or forced to dissolve into the electrolyte as ions, as long as the metal in not inert).
The - cathode is the electrode side where the metal ions are reduced out of solution, or where reduction of the ions back to metal occurs.

As far as current flow in the external circuit.
Which way you choose to describe the direction the electrons are flowing through the external circuit of the cell, really depends on which electron theory you choose to use, (hole theory or conventional electron flow theory), or the theory the author is using. Either is correct, (although they both use different directions in there description).

I choose to use the older conventional electron theory, not the newer hole theory, so I say electrons flow from positive to negative, another person may choose the hole theory and say the electrons move from negative to positive, neither of us are wrong, (but these electrons only flow in one direction), we just have to pick one theory to use, and understand when someone else uses the other theory.


Basically it is similar to one person saying the glass is half full, and another says the glass is half empty, neither is wrong, its just how we look at the glass or describe what we see, as long as I understand how he is describing the glass I can understand what he is saying.

Well I guess there are some people who just like to debate, whether the glass is half full or half empty. Or just like to debate.

I do have to admit as a person who has studied electricity and electronics, and skilled in both, I still get sometimes confused with this myself. :lol:
 
Butcher, You are The Man. :)

I actually understand it better now, and I thank You for that.

Also, a glass is always full, Lol.
 
butcher said:
I choose to use the older conventional electron theory, not the newer hole theory, so I say electrons flow from positive to negative, another person may choose the hole theory and say the electrons move from negative to positive, neither of us are wrong, (but these electrons only flow in one direction), we just have to pick one theory to use, and understand when someone else uses the other theory.
Electrons can never flow from positive to negative. They can be forced, but never flow.

As a physicist I have never heard of any new "hole theory". It is actually quite simple.

Electrons have a negative charge. Free negative charge always moves towards positive potential. If it moves towards negative potential then something else is forcing it in that direction.

A positive current on the other side (moving charge) is defined to move from a positive potential to a negative.

So, if we connect a battery (or a generator) to a lamp the current goes from positive pole to the lamp and back to the negative pole. On the microscopic scale the electrons goes the other way around, from negative pole to the lamp and on to the positive pole.
Inside the battery a chemical reaction is moving the electron from the positive pole to the negative and the cycle can start again. In the case of a generator it is the magnetic field that is pushing electrons from one pole to the other.

I don't like to talk about holes going along with the current as that is not happening, there are no holes. It's just as wrong as talking about vacuum going the other way in a water pipe to describe water flow. The only time a hole is part of the equation is in semiconductors that makes up transistors. Then holes are actual voids in the crystal and can be observed.

As a footnote, the reason that electrons moves against the current and not the other way around is history. Electricity was discovered a long time before they found out that it was tiny electrons that moved, they just decided to call one side of the battery for plus and the other for minus. When the electron were discovered it was too late to change the definition.

Göran
 
kurtak said:
A graphite anode for a winning cell does work - however the bubbles that are formed at the anode erodes the graphite which limits the use/life of the anode which means replacement so it needs to be high density graphite to start with & in my opinion is only good for trial experimenting with electro winning

if you intend to set up electro winning for frequent or continual or large batch electro winning you are better served to invest in a titanium anode - it will last forever

Kurt
Here is a link to an interesting video showing the electro winning of copper sulfate. As you mentioned the graphite electrode broke down very quickly. The platinum electrode worked much better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dUSF9Gl0xE
This video is where I got the idea to start researching lead dioxide electrodes. He mention it at the end although he didn't use it.

At any rate I'm not sure if what the OP is doing has anything to do with electro winning. I just thought that information about inert electrodes might be of help.
 
Would it be possible to make an electrode out of another sturdy oxide? Iron oxide in the form of magnetite is mined in large quantities and as far as I know it conducts electricity, though quite bad.

I have a lot of iron ore so I can test it... watch this space for further results.

Göran
 
Looks like titanium would have to be plated (platinum) or the formation of oxide would passivate and stop the whole process.
 
As an aside, early automotive used a "positive ground electrical system" where the chassis of the car was positively charged and the current flowed backwards.
 
g_axelsson,

Perhaps I did not say that very clear, or used some word wrong.
Concerning the two different theory’s used:


Conventional current flow
(the flow of holes)
The flow of charge from positive to negative around a circuit.
This is an older theory of direction of flow,
Electronic schematic diagrams represent this direction of flow in the device drawings.

And then the other way of looking at the direction of flow, when discussing or reading a circuit schematic...

Electron (current flow)
The actual direction of flow of electrons in an electrical circuit.
From negative to positive.
The "charge of an electron being negative is attracted to the (more) positive.
the flow of electrons is called electron current flow.

Neither direction, or theory is wrong, or wrong to use, authors and text books, teachers, and schools, or electronic technicians will use either direction, or theory when discussing or describing, reading or troubleshooting circuits.

You can have two different books in which you are studying electronics or electrical circuits (cells, batteries or whatever), and each author of those two books may use a different theory to describe the flow, and the direction it moves, they can be opposite in these two books, neither author is wrong, as long as he sticks with one theory of direction, and uses it consistently in his book.

In fact it makes no difference which way current is flowing in a circuit, or how we choose to describe its flow, as long as we use the same theory consistently, in our discussions (or text written), the direction of current flow has nothing to do with what the circuit does.

Reading different books it can become very confusing, you have to determine which theory of current flow the Author is using in his book. And keep in mind he may use a different theory than another Author does, or that you may use.

To study understand electricity or electronics, or to work with electronics or schematics, pick one theory or the other (one direction or the other) (it does not matter which you choose to use neither is wrong), and also understand when someone else uses the other theory in their discussions or writings.
 
Thanks Goran, for your post. You are correct. Your explanation is the standard most design engineers use and most schools teach. Trying to explain it any other way is going to confuse people. Holes do not belong in any expalnation of current flow unless you are dealing with semiconductors.
 
Slightly different but basically the same in the English wiki : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-hand_rule
 
Understanding that there are differences in theory, and understanding the difference, both helps me to read what a book is saying, and keep things straight in my mind.
There are times that I have been reading a book for a while, and then begin to see him explaining things (backwards, at least backwards to me), until I realize which theory the author is useing to explain the circuit, I will normally mark that book with the theory used by the author in that book.

Then other books I read the authors will use the same theory I use to decribe the flow of current.

I worked for several years with an electronic technician who read everything backwards, from the way I did, we often had fun with each other argueing that the other was reading everything backwards.
 
I appologize for being a bit narrowminded in my comment of "most schools teach".(i keep forgetting this is a world wide forum). I was reffering to schools in the new England area such as MIT.In the 60's and early 70's The right hand rule was the only accepted theory to be taught. Then again,solid state theory was not even taught there until the early 70's. There were no books on the right then up to date theories available. Current state of the art courses were taught by engineers from state-of the art companies of which there was only a handful.Courses were taught to students by teleconferencing direct from corporate conference rooms to the school.
Now there is a half a dozen theories for the atom, and how their components interact with each other. Glad you can keep all your books straight Butcher.Thanks for all you do here.
 

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