Help choosing a torch

[Palladium]

A residential gas supply only supplies gas at a certain pressure and volume . Not sure if their would be enough pressure for a furnace. but it should work for a torch. The gas company can turn the residential regulator wide open and it might work for a furnace but i don't know. Harold might be able to answe that better. If not then they will need to change the regulator out which could cost you money extra.

 

[Harold_V]

I am far from an expert on natural gas, but I'll explain what I did, and why.

Lets begin with line pressure. Here, in the US, at least where I lived, the typical pressure provided to a residence is only about four ounces. They have a different way of describing the pressure, and I'm not in tune with that terminology, so I'm going to make reference to PSI (pounds per square inch).

When you have such low pressure, which I can assume is limited to prevent leakage from questionable connections, unless you have a large delivery pipe, the volume of gas needed can be limited. For a torch, I expect that wouldn't be a problem, but for a large melting furnace, it certainly could be. As a result, when I was approached by Mountain Fuel (the company who dispensed natural gas, or methane, in the Salt Lake Valley, where I resided at the time) if I had intentions of installing natural gas, my response to them was that I did, but I had hopes of greater line pressure, so I wouldn't have to install overly large pipe in order to achieve the volume of gas required for the two heating furnaces, along with a water heater, torch, lab hot plate and the large melting furnace, which, at this point in time, had not been designed and built.

Mountain Fuel had to install a new line on the street, due to relocation of the street entrance, but they assured me that there would be sufficient service to cover my needs, and that they could install a one pound meter (in lieu of the typical four ounce). That appeared to be satisfactory, so I signed the contract, and paid the $35 fee (talk about a bargain!). It should be noted that the typical appliance made for consumer use, here in the US, is built to operate @ the four ounce pressure I noted. As a result, I had to install pressure reducers for both heating furnaces, as well as the water heater. I operated my hot plate and torch @ the 1 pound pressure, along with the melting furnaces.

Prior to my building the castle, I operated a small crucible furnace on the typical four ounce delivery. I had no issues with volume. Delivery was via 3/4" black pipe.

If you are unable to get higher pressure, my advice would be to size the supply pipe accordingly. Substituting the typical 3/4" pipe for one inch, or larger, will ensure a greater volume of delivery. That would be particularly important if the gas must be delivered over long distances.

Where I reside now, there is no natural gas available. I can honesty say, that's the one thing I regret losing by moving to the country.

Harold

 

[MarcoP]

Thank you Palladium and thank you Harold! With the new info you gave me I started googling and just confirmed all I've read with the technician that in a couple of days could come to modify the existing line. The line pipe to modify is, from memory, 3/4" or 1", with a pressure of ~200 mbar, ~3 PSI.

From what I've read using pure oxygen will decrease the gas usage to about 70% of what would be needed for air/methane combustion, basically from a ratio of 0.2:10 air:gas to 1:3 oxy:gas (I should google the doc again for exact numbers). What I want to say here is that even if the pressure is not high enough to run a small furnace, using some oxygen should make up for the difference. Basically I could save my self from headaches to run different types of gas, and since methane is cheaper then others I could refill oxygen bottles with the difference of the price.

Sounds I'm getting close to an happy end, what are your thoughts about oxymethane to melt palladium, its very low on carbon. Cooling under reducing flame and quenching straight away. Could that be used by jewellers, or at least could that be presentable enough to sell to a refiner? I would like to avoid selling powders because it seems XRF works better for solid bars and I'd like to avoid false readings.

Marco

P.S.: Thank you again for the time you guys are giving me taking pictures and sharing your knowledge.

 

[Barren Realms 007]

You might want to talk to the technician about installing a 2nd meter next to your existing one. Check and see if they might give you a different rate on your gas on that 2nd meter similar to what they do here for lawn sprinkler systems you can have a 2nd water meter installed and there is not a sewer treatment charge on the 2nd meter because the water is used for the sprinklers are used for irrigation and treatment is not required.

 

[MarcoP]

A second meter is already installed and not used because reserved for one floor that has never been used (I live in a three store building plus garage and lab is in the previously unused attic, four floors in total), activating it would require a brand new contract and I think it won't improve much the pressure, thanks for the idea tough, appreciated.

 

[rickbb]

A second meter is already installed and not used because reserved for one floor that has never been used (I live in a three store building plus garage and lab is in the previously unused attic, four floors in total), activating it would require a brand new contract and I think it won't improve much the pressure, thanks for the idea tough, appreciated.

Alarm bells are ringing. Living in the same building as doing refining is not safe. Fumes and vapors may migrate into your living quarters. That would be a bad thing. Really bad.

 

[MarcoP]

Alarm bells are ringing. Living in the same building as doing refining is not safe. Fumes and vapors may migrate into your living quarters. That would be a bad thing. Really bad.

Yes, correct. This is why I've stopped any chemical refining and or recovery. A fume home is getting installed and I'm still looking for a good membrane vacuum pump to then install a small scrubber. Till then I'll use 250ml polyester washing bottles (4 of coming from US) with course filter where air is pumped into, instead of vacuumed. I could easily move on with some sterling silver I have, pump air into a closed bucked when reaction is going, fume will exit from the bucket into the three washing bottles. First two with 3% peroxide and the third one with SMB to kill NOx, the last one will exit into distilled water and kept under observation with my repaired, but yet untested (electrode coming from China), PH meter.

I'm trying not to get the alarm bell ring on me, otherwise I would have missed on refining principles.

 

[FrugalRefiner]

Marco, you would be better off with a vacuum pump pulling out of the last container in your scrubber system than a pump pushing air into the reaction vessel. The problem with a positive pressure system is that any leak in the system will allow fumes to escape. With a vacuum, or negative pressure, system, if there is a leak somewhere, it will just draw room air into the system. As long as the leak is smaller than the volume drawn by the vacuum, you're still safe.

I still wouldn't process in my home.

Dave

 

[kurtak]

. A fume home is getting installed and I'm still looking for a good membrane vacuum pump to then install a small scrubber.

Marco

Not sure I understand what you are saying here

Is the vacuum pump going to be used to remove/evacuate the fumes from the hood? -or - is the hood going to have a fan/blower to remove/evacuate the fumes (to the outside) & then the vacuum used to connect to reaction vessels in the hood?

Kurt

 

[g_axelsson]

My guess is a small scrubber for process gases that sucks the gas through the scrubber with a vacuum pump placed after the scrubber.
And a big fan for evacuating the air in the fume hood to keep fumes from entering the work area / house.

Göran

 

[jason_recliner]

You would not believe the way fumes can move in the opposite direction to intended airflow.
Airflow is complicated. I have smelled smokers who were 100 feet downwind from me. I have heard that a bear can smell you from a mile upwind.

I would never fume anywhere inside my residence, including in a negative pressure room. Slap-down garden sheds are cheap.

 

[kurtak]

My guess is a small scrubber for process gases that sucks the gas through the scrubber with a vacuum pump placed after the scrubber.
And a big fan for evacuating the air in the fume hood to keep fumes from entering the work area / house.

Göran

Correct - as it should be

The entire lab/room needs to be under "constant" negative air pressure - meaning the fume hood needs to run 24/7 pulling air from outside the room - through the room & out the hood --- this is especially true being as he is setting the lab up on the upper most floor of the house

Also - because the lab is being set up in a part of the house it needs to be isolated from the house heating & air system - meaning it has to have its own heating source (electric base board heaters or wall mount gas heater)

If there are heating/air vents from the house system in the room they need to at least be "well" closed off (sealed) or better yet disconnected - or he will get "back draft" back to the rest of the home by why of the cold air return

Here is a pic of a piece of litmus paper sitting just outside my hood (has been there about 2 weeks now & has still not changed color) that along with others placed around the lab let me know "no fumes" are building up in the lab & everything is going out the hood

Kurt

 

[MarcoP]

Safety first. Dave, Kurt and Göran thanks for your inputs, doubts, questions and critics.

I wouldn't call it as "refining in my home", its just the same building and two stories higher. The floor under the attic was a 300sqm storage used by my father with no pavement or plaster, its just bricks and nude pillars. The about 60sqm attic (separated in two rooms) was the same till I decided to finish it all up 20 years ago to have my own space when I would come back home for holidays and such.
This and all others floors are isolated from each other, no common eating or air.

None of these was or will be used as home, these are just house looking sheds with a great view. If things goes well and I also learn how to make a profit I will move out somewhere else more appropriate.

Moreover, no refining is being done before all safety measures are getting in place. Closed systems are what I'm getting into because this awkward situation I'm in. The only think is missing is a proper chemical storage and it will be done at the back of the garage, outside and in an already covered area. Thus I will build something to enclose a couple of tanks I have in stock. I have no details yet on this because I truly have spent no time studying it yet.

An exhaust fan will pull air from the fume hood (good to know it needs to run 24/7).
At the moment I'll be pushing air through the reaction vessel and four small washing bottles used as scrubbers. The last will exit trough one of the exhaust line inside the fume hood.
When I get the vacuum pump I will just replace the washing bottles and suck fumes trough the, yet to make, scrubbers with its own dedicated line.

I hope all I'm doing is satisfactory to make it all safe for me, others and mother nature. The last thing I want is to create troubles, even the tiniest. Go figure, I haven't yet melted the gram of gold powder I made months ago and I'm already building the lab, I'd like to believe I'm doing well, if not I beg you to pull my ear and pretend more out of me.

Marco

Edit: spelling.

 

[Harold_V]

I still wouldn't process in my home.

While I'm inclined to agree, I did exactly that, but the facility was built accordingly.
When I built the castle, the areas used for refining were completely isolated from the balance of the structure. There was an 8" grouted concrete block fire wall that separated the refinery from living quarters, with entry to the refinery by a dedicated outside stairway. The refinery had its own heating furnace as well, with all walls caulked to prevent migration of fumes. The end result was exactly as intended, with no signs of chemical activity to be found outside the lab.

In addition to the lab, that portion of the structure contained my machine shop, as well as a double garage. No rust problems, as the shop and garage were heated by a second, larger furnace. There was no exchange of atmosphere between the lab and other facilities.

It can be done. It doesn't come without considerable effort and expense.

Harold

 

[MarcoP]

This morning I woke up with a totally different idea, I'll build a [stt]4x2[/stt] 6w x 2.5h x 3d meters shed in the back terrace which has about 200sqm of free room. Thinking of it it will help me a lot with the exhaust system. I will have to install water and gas but that's not a problem.

I was thinking I was doing well but even with a fume hood it's still better to have is own area for multiple reasons. Refining kept in hold but I still have much manual recovery to do anyway.

Went off topic but for good reasons! Thank you all.

Marco

Edited shed's size

 

[METLMASHER]

Wise decision, Marco. The efforts for your safety, and those who are yours, will be rewarded. You may never know the effects that you'll not suffer.

I applaud you.

My rubber-made shop now, will be my lab soon. The ability to hose the walls and floor with neutralizing solution, is for those worst case scenarios, that I hope will never happen. But I'm too cautious, to be blind to the possibility.

 

[kurtak]

I still wouldn't process in my home.

While I'm inclined to agree, I did exactly that, but the facility was built accordingly.

It can be done. It doesn't come without considerable effort and expense.

Harold

For "the most part" I also agree that setting up to process in your house should not be the first choice & avoided if at all possible

That said - I also agree that (as Harold says "it can be done") but needs to be done in a very well planed out manner (which Marco is clearly putting in the effort to do)

My lab is a room I built out in the old barn - its actually 3 rooms/spaces - 3/4 of it is the old open (un-insulated) timber frame part of the barn that is used for storage & warm weather work area - then 1/4 of it has been walled off for an insulated work shop with the lab walled off at the far end of this room to separate the shop from the lab - the lab & shop each have there own heat source & fresh air is vented into the lab from out in the main timber frame part of the barn

I built this lab about 1&1/2 years ago when we gave up on the CAT refining project at the scrap yard (where I learned "a lot" about setting up a safe working lab) there are some pieces of copper as well as iron (tools) that have been in the lab from day one when I started doing chem work in it & to this day the copper & tools show absolutely "no signs" of corrosion - also I leave pieces of litmus paper sitting out intentionally as indicators & have not yet seen an indication of un-safe working environment

That is after all the intended purpose of building a "proper" set up lab --- to create a "safe" working environment

From the description Marco has given of the lay out of the house/building & the description of were & how he intends to set the lab up - I don't think he needs to change from his intended plan - he just needs to work out the details of setting it up to its completion - which he is clearly putting every effort (& expense) into doing so

As a matter of my personal opinion - Marco - as a relatively new member is a good example of how this should be done in the first place - which is to approach the concern of safety & put every effort forward to set up such FIRST

As we all know in the past we have had many members come here that have had little or no concern for safety - they just want the gold - so for me it is like a breath of fresh air to see Marco AND some of our other most recent members - that are actually taking the advice of this forum - to read, research & study AND make safety a priority --- it makes the time I spend posting feel like time well spent

That said - I still do not advocate building a lab that is a part of your house - but if that is your only real option - then do it with very well thought out planning to make it an environment that "stands alone" from the environment of the rest of the house/building

Kurt

 

[MarcoP]

Thank you guys! You all, every time, put safety first and the way I understood a while ago the environment takes a good chunk of it. Till this morning I was simply looking not far then my nose, inside the cube, and I had to have a KISS moment to be able to see it.

You guys put such an effort sharing, guiding and warning us: too valuable to be even partially ignored. I like to think "I wanna be as good as him" instead of "give me the values", surely a dream in most cases but at least it makes me move in the right direction. On the meantime I'm having fun building things and values are surely safer where they are now then in my hands :lol:

As a side note, I never refined inside; by the way I like the idea of having around some litmus paper and will surely do that.

Marco

 

[METLMASHER]

Litmus paper environment test strips are a great idea, placed where they protrude into any air movement will guarantee you can breath when you're older, which is better than to not.

 

[MarcoP]

Because I've mentioned them here, here they came my washing bottles.