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ThePierCer
Well-known member
lol.. I think you know I meant to say NOT splitting Atoms. Good job jumping all over a typo.
But I digress.
But I digress.
Arcani said:
I certainly don’t imply that you do that (the moment you did, I would, of course)
But quite a few people in the business are trying to do exactly that. Yule Brown and Stan Myers are a couple of prominent examples.
Both have a long career of fraud and scamming, and Myers was convicted for fraud after ripping of investors.
The best thing to say about them is that they are expert con artists. (were, both seem to have died in 1998 (murdered by the conspiracy?)).
Snake oil and heretics are harsh words.
There is nothing wrong with electrolysis. It may be one of the best options for storing surplus energy we have. And you can drive cars on hydrogen.
Once the problems of storage and fuel cell price/lifespan and storage of hydrogen are solved, the hydrogen powered car is a reality.
http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage1259.html
Hydrogen powered systems are on the market already, here is a Danish example:
http://www.h2logic.dk/Dk/mps.asp
But the moment you start talking “over unity” and believe in beating the fundamentals of thermodynamics I’d more compare it to alchemy. Then you are trying to generate something that is not there, not gold in this case, but energy.
It could be possible, but then the last 300 years of science and scientific observations would be totally wrong. Is that likely?
Running a car on “just water and electrolysis” with no extra input of energy is like putting a flywheel on an electric motor, attaching a generator to the flywheel, wire the generator to the motor and expect this system to start running and producing extra energy once you give it a little push. Both the electric motor and the generator are far better for converting energy than both the automobile engine and the electrolysis cell. So, why should it not work?
If you continue down that road, a space is reserved for you on this list:
http://www.phact.org/e/dennis4.html
Make sure that your experiments are well documented and reproducible, and do not fall into the quicksand of wishful thinking, magic and conspiracy theory.
I too enjoy the discussion
:wink:
Peter i
Pete, he said in past replies that he has bin testing on small engines as have i, we are still learning but others have been driving around with these cells on there cars for years and freely giving information on what they have done. I took from this FREE information and have seen it for myself now.
It seems u would have us ignore our lying eyes? :lol:
Watch this trailer for a upcoming documentary( will be released this spring)
and maybe it will help u get where we are coming from
http://www.expelledthemovie.com/playgroundvideo3.swf
and more on waterhttp://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=2464139837181538044
Pete, he said in past replies that he has bin testing on small engines as have i, we are still learning but others have been driving around with these cells on there cars for years and freely giving information on what they have done. I took from this FREE information and have seen it for myself now.
It seems u would have us ignore our lying eyes? :lol:
Watch this trailer for a upcoming documentary( will be released this spring)
and maybe it will help u get where we are coming from
http://www.expelledthemovie.com/playgroundvideo3.swf
and more on waterhttp://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=2464139837181538044
zauggart
Well-known member
hi there
here is a youtube video of hho gas torch and a car that runs on it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUmlLqkUHd0&feature=related
i thought it was very interesting and dont understand why there isnt more research into this topic than there is ,seems a shame to slow the progress on something that the entire world could benifit from .
Ian
here is a youtube video of hho gas torch and a car that runs on it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUmlLqkUHd0&feature=related
i thought it was very interesting and dont understand why there isnt more research into this topic than there is ,seems a shame to slow the progress on something that the entire world could benifit from .
Ian
A
Anonymous
Guest
Did anyone understand that when you use a battery to power your
cell with no limit on the amps available you get the short term appearance of large amount of gas from what appears to be be a small power source. If you ran the cell from the battery until it was dead you will find that you in the end produce less gas than you should in theory produce the amount will be reduced by the amount of heat that is generated in the cell and the battery allong with the wires.
As much as I wish you could produce even the theoreticly available amount of gas, it just is not possible. That is why everyone of these experiments only run for a limited time and do not run until the batteries
are exhausted.
Try it and see, I am guessing you are using a 12v 6amp/hour battery if you let it go until it stops it will produce gas at a volume constistant with your results for around six minutes then it will drop drastically in gas produced.
You should stop every min disconnect the battery and measure its voltage it should start if fully charged in the 13v range and it is dead for all practical purposes at 12v but will still produce some gas. Measure the entire volume of gas produce. If your battery is different than I have stated tell me the amp hours rating and I will tell you how long of period of time you can produce a signification volume of gas for.
Do not use aluminum electrodes they will affect your results.
cell with no limit on the amps available you get the short term appearance of large amount of gas from what appears to be be a small power source. If you ran the cell from the battery until it was dead you will find that you in the end produce less gas than you should in theory produce the amount will be reduced by the amount of heat that is generated in the cell and the battery allong with the wires.
As much as I wish you could produce even the theoreticly available amount of gas, it just is not possible. That is why everyone of these experiments only run for a limited time and do not run until the batteries
are exhausted.
Try it and see, I am guessing you are using a 12v 6amp/hour battery if you let it go until it stops it will produce gas at a volume constistant with your results for around six minutes then it will drop drastically in gas produced.
You should stop every min disconnect the battery and measure its voltage it should start if fully charged in the 13v range and it is dead for all practical purposes at 12v but will still produce some gas. Measure the entire volume of gas produce. If your battery is different than I have stated tell me the amp hours rating and I will tell you how long of period of time you can produce a signification volume of gas for.
Do not use aluminum electrodes they will affect your results.
- Joined
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You've been duped!ThePierCer said:
If you can show any of us a setup like that that can run endlessly, you may have something. I don't think so. When everything is taken into account, you have expended more energy than you have recovered. The rest is lost as heat (friction) and resistance (more heat). There really is NO free lunch---nor perpetual motion.
What you're suggesting is that there is more energy yielded than consumed. It has never happened in all of recorded history. Even nuclear power yields a balanced equation.
If you don't take anything else into account, consider the resistance of wire in a generator, and that's one of the minor losses. Only at absolute zero can electrical current flow without loss (resistance).
I shudder to think of the amount of energy that is lost in heat alone.
Harold
Arcani said:
If you are hot on “Expelled", you are further gone that I believed..... If that is where you are coming from, I have no intention of going there!
It can only be described as a “creationist propaganda movie” (and it is supposed to be extraordinarily boring).
Take a look at http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/expelled.php for a preview of the fun (written by another Myers, by the way)
EDIT:
Yes, quite a few people claim to have built “over unity” devices or defied the basics in other ways.
Yes, quite a few of them willingly share some of the information but others are looking for “willing investors”. None of whom have ever gotten their moneys worth.
Yes, these people willingly show their devices, but funnily, they will normally not allow any unbelievers to inspect them critically.
When unbelievers are allowed to test them, they always fail (they are sabotaged, of course)
Show me just one working device and I’ll convert on the spot.
But “show” means allow to dismantle, test and measure it, not “look at it and believe the numbers supplied by the inventor”.
“An extraordinary claim requires extraordinarily good proof”
I don't have over unity with my cell, never said i did, but am very inpressed with the gas production which, over unity or not, is a HELL of alot cheaper then buying these gases from a supplier. How much do u pay for a tank of oxygen or Hydrogen?
Lol, u don't even watch do u, u just google search it and find a sceptic site on it. You have made it clear u think it is a waste of time, so why does it bother u so much that we 'waste our time' on this? Just look at the time u have spent trying to debunk the whole thing, electrolysis torch riggs have been on the market for years, why not make your own???The point of my posting that trailer is that the scientific community can act like Zealots, i was trying to make the point sudeley.
I will do that James, the battery i have used is as u stated, i am getting ready to run my car with HHO assist(just running it in the air intake;possible because my VW is not fuel injected). If there is excessive amps being drawn then it shouldn't take long to kill the battery. One problem I'm having is that when when i let off the gas in the car the idle stays high for a while before it settles back to normal, i guess it must take a bit for the censors to adjust.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Are you running the car off of the battery in the car? If so do not draw it down to dead like I suggested for the test it will drastically shorten the life of your battery if it does not kill it outright. What size engine are you running? I would imagine your eletrolysis system would have to be huge to generate enough gas to run a car engine. I would also caution that the unburnt gasoline in normal operations serves to cool the cylinder and prevent the fuel denoating instead of burning. I think with the ideal mix of pure hydrogen and oxygen under compression is going to detonate and ruin your engine if you run it to long, you may not notice this when there is no load applied. If you know all of this and have taken appropriate precauions or have a car that you don't care if it goes to the junk yard then I would stay experiment away. I would not however do this to my car, maybe a old genset or something. I have studied alternative fueling for engines as a hobby for quite some time. I have a generator that runs off of coal by putting the coal in a container and not allowing enough air in it makes some CO which burns and other hydrocarbons which are driven off of the coal. This process keeps the ash from entering the engine.
Coal outcrops only a few feet under the dirt at my house. I do not use the genset it was just a proof of consept thin.
Coal outcrops only a few feet under the dirt at my house. I do not use the genset it was just a proof of consept thin.
James
The car is a old 4 cylinder VW golf 1.8 L gas and the battery is old aswell so i don't care if it gets done in, I'm not running it on HHO alone, i couldn't get a 5HP engine i tested on to run above idle so i started adding the gas into the air intake of the engine. On the VW i took apart a section of the intake hose and put in a piece of ABS that fit nice and snug with gear clamps. A hole in the ABS is where i feed in the HHO from the bubblier, i haven't driven anywhere yet but have been revving the piss out of engine to see what problems might arise, so far just the problem with the rpm's staying high after u let off the gas, i figure this is the oxygen censor getting confused. I hope to have it mounted in the engine compartment this weekend so i can drive it around a bit and see how it is under load. From my testing with the 5HP i found that adding the HHO (just stuck the hose through the air filter) to the gasoline improved efficiency about 20%. Running completely on HHO would require a lot of amps from what I've seen others do, but a little HHO torch is great to have given the price of buying it and easy to make, u should give it a go if u haven't already, my 1LPM cell(just u Shaped ABS with coiled SS wire for electrodes) makes a good hot little flame and the 2lmp cell is even better(Plate style). The plate design worked a lot better then the coil style, keeping the plates close, like 2 mm, seems to force the bubbles out faster and thus make more use of the surface for creating more bubbles. After seeing Dallasgoldbug's cell with stacked SS cups, i took my plate cell apart again and bent the plates at 90 and stacked them vertically with the corners pointed down, it improved slightly so the angle would seem to help expel the bubbles even more. Some people claim that high volt, low amp AC current works better but i have only used 12V DC.
That coal engine sounds interesting, u have any links to more info? or is it something u have developed yourself?
The car is a old 4 cylinder VW golf 1.8 L gas and the battery is old aswell so i don't care if it gets done in, I'm not running it on HHO alone, i couldn't get a 5HP engine i tested on to run above idle so i started adding the gas into the air intake of the engine. On the VW i took apart a section of the intake hose and put in a piece of ABS that fit nice and snug with gear clamps. A hole in the ABS is where i feed in the HHO from the bubblier, i haven't driven anywhere yet but have been revving the piss out of engine to see what problems might arise, so far just the problem with the rpm's staying high after u let off the gas, i figure this is the oxygen censor getting confused. I hope to have it mounted in the engine compartment this weekend so i can drive it around a bit and see how it is under load. From my testing with the 5HP i found that adding the HHO (just stuck the hose through the air filter) to the gasoline improved efficiency about 20%. Running completely on HHO would require a lot of amps from what I've seen others do, but a little HHO torch is great to have given the price of buying it and easy to make, u should give it a go if u haven't already, my 1LPM cell(just u Shaped ABS with coiled SS wire for electrodes) makes a good hot little flame and the 2lmp cell is even better(Plate style). The plate design worked a lot better then the coil style, keeping the plates close, like 2 mm, seems to force the bubbles out faster and thus make more use of the surface for creating more bubbles. After seeing Dallasgoldbug's cell with stacked SS cups, i took my plate cell apart again and bent the plates at 90 and stacked them vertically with the corners pointed down, it improved slightly so the angle would seem to help expel the bubbles even more. Some people claim that high volt, low amp AC current works better but i have only used 12V DC.
That coal engine sounds interesting, u have any links to more info? or is it something u have developed yourself?
A
Anonymous
Guest
I did not develope it, I saw a article or something on a sawmill that ran a
v8 engine to drive the mill using the waste sawdust and slabs and choking the flame down which basically at first makes a lot of smoke that is rich in unburnt hydrocarbons but after they are gone you get a lot of CO which
provides less power but you just add more wood or in my case coal.
I only ran it while experimenting with how much to choke the flame down for about a week or two. I live in the country and the power goes out alot so I was trying to develope a back up system were I would not have to go out to get fuel.
My next project is going to be a biomass digester. There are lots of farms around me that I can get manure and staw, etc from then return to them as compost when it is done processing.
v8 engine to drive the mill using the waste sawdust and slabs and choking the flame down which basically at first makes a lot of smoke that is rich in unburnt hydrocarbons but after they are gone you get a lot of CO which
provides less power but you just add more wood or in my case coal.
I only ran it while experimenting with how much to choke the flame down for about a week or two. I live in the country and the power goes out alot so I was trying to develope a back up system were I would not have to go out to get fuel.
My next project is going to be a biomass digester. There are lots of farms around me that I can get manure and staw, etc from then return to them as compost when it is done processing.
A
Anonymous
Guest
how have you determined that you got a increase of effeciency by 20 percent?
ddrew
Member
Arcani said:
That technology he is using is called 'Producer Gas' and is also know as 'Wood Gas' when they use wood to make the gas byproducts. I've been seriously looking this technology, but see the HHO as a more viable option, if it really works. I have several books on Producer Gas and Wood Gas (Mother Earth News even has a set of plans on Wood Gas), and FEMA has a report they publish on it too. The technology was used in Europe during WWII since petroleum-based products were so scarce.
Here are some links to more information on this technology:
http://www.green-trust.org/woodgas.htm
http://www.survivalring.org/pdf/fema_wood_gas_generator.pdf
Google "wood gas" or 'producer gas" and you'll find a wealth of information on it.
Hope this helps . . .
A
Anonymous
Guest
I was in the works of planning on building a can to feed the hot exhaust from the gen set into to heat the wood inside to make the gas in a closed container to improve power density and leave me with clean charcoal for my forge. I planned to start the engine on gas then when producing change to the gas produced by the wood but I could not figure how to control the amount of gas produced without venting unburnt gas. This thread has inspired me to start kicking that idea around again.
scavenger
Well-known member
I tried several homemade cell designs on my vehicle and found that if wired directly to the 12v system I gain nothing. The hydrogen boost only balances out the extra work the engine has to do to run the cell. Running the cell of a seperate battery or batteries works. Only hassle is charging the batteries after a drive. I now use a modified version of this design http://www.rexresearch.com/celis/celis.htm I found that the original design made a small difference. I tried adding waste oil to the water to produce hydrocarbons. A little better. I noticed my exhaust was very clean.
I held white tissue paper over the tailpipe and nothing. I could not even smell the exhaust. I figured the high heat of combustion was cracking the hydrocarbon steam into HHO and it was being spat out the exhaust. I made a T section in the exhaust before the muffler and ran tube to the air cleaner. The results are outstanding. I now have to adjust the idle screw out 5 mins after starting to keep the rpm down. I have tried disconnecting the gas and unfortunately it does stop running. At a rough guess I'm getting 50% plus more mileage out of a litre of gas. Water cost nothing and waste oil cost nothing. It cost me about NZ$80 to make. Please dont tell me why this should not work and check out these links before you ask me any questions. http://www.rexresearch.com/pantone/pantone.htm
http://jlnlabs.online.fr/bingofuel/index.htm
I held white tissue paper over the tailpipe and nothing. I could not even smell the exhaust. I figured the high heat of combustion was cracking the hydrocarbon steam into HHO and it was being spat out the exhaust. I made a T section in the exhaust before the muffler and ran tube to the air cleaner. The results are outstanding. I now have to adjust the idle screw out 5 mins after starting to keep the rpm down. I have tried disconnecting the gas and unfortunately it does stop running. At a rough guess I'm getting 50% plus more mileage out of a litre of gas. Water cost nothing and waste oil cost nothing. It cost me about NZ$80 to make. Please dont tell me why this should not work and check out these links before you ask me any questions. http://www.rexresearch.com/pantone/pantone.htm
http://jlnlabs.online.fr/bingofuel/index.htm
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- Messages
- 8,360
james122964 said:
Excellent observation. If it must remain on the board, please move to the Bar & Grill section.
Harold
A note: My sig line is new, and does not relate to the ongoing conversation. Please do not take it personally.
lazersteve
Well-known member
I moved them. 
Steve
Steve
A
Anonymous
Guest
Harold, that is hard to do when you make a point of pointing it out.
