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aflacglobal
Well-known member
Fuel Cell :arrow:
As a chemist: There is no magic in "Browns gas", "HHO" and whatever people call it (but it seems to fascinate quite a few 110% lunatics on the internet tremendously).
For experiments, stainless steel in sodium hydroxide solution has a fairly low rate of corrosion. But you will loose some energy as heat, and you can never get more energy out than you put in. 1000 Watt is a nasty lot of electricity, maybe you get 600 W worth of hydrogen/oxygen out… and that really isn’t much of a blowtorch.
These systems have some uses, but any oxy/acetylene or oxy/LPG-system will kick their a….
And aluminium will not survive for long in any reactive environment (but will add some hydrogen when dissolving)
For experiments, stainless steel in sodium hydroxide solution has a fairly low rate of corrosion. But you will loose some energy as heat, and you can never get more energy out than you put in. 1000 Watt is a nasty lot of electricity, maybe you get 600 W worth of hydrogen/oxygen out… and that really isn’t much of a blowtorch.
These systems have some uses, but any oxy/acetylene or oxy/LPG-system will kick their a….
And aluminium will not survive for long in any reactive environment (but will add some hydrogen when dissolving)
dallasgoldbug
Active member
I call it Twister HHO,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsNUgwcDrbU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOpv53LvFoc
Ive been working on HHO devices for many years now. Ive experimented with many different types of materials and electrode designs.
This design is in the patent process, but is protected with ip.com, so Im able to finally unveil it.
Briefly heres an overview of how this differs from the rest:
1. I use stainless cups that are stacked inside each other. They are spaced approximately 3/16 apart, and have a rolled upper lip at the top of each. This role is important, it creates a suction pulling the gas bubbles back toward the next cup colliding with the bubbles above, and pushing them away from the electrode quicker.
This is very important, Designs that use plates stacked one above another trap gas bubbles and dont allow them to move away.
Your objective is to have the electrolyte in contact with the electrode as much as possible. When a gas bubble forms, inside that bubble there is no contact, and therefore no gas production. So you want small bubbles that quickly get out of the way.
2. Stacking the cups aids in the bubbles motion off the electrode. Instead of plated designs that are places one next to another, they don't take advantage of the fast moving bubbles vertical motion. By stacking more cups you get more electrode surface ares and can handle more power.
3. By running the electrode contacts next to each other, you turn them in to part of the electrode. Take advantage of as much stainless surface area as possible for maximum gas production.
4. The next prototype my working with has a turbine spinning at the bottom under the column. This makes the electrolyte swirl around the electrode moving the bubbles away even more effectively.
5. The best shaped electrodes, I find to be cylinder shaped. Not Plates, spheres, rods, screen, or wire. Think of electricity like you would a sound wave. Speakers with the best sound quality are round shaped. Thats why 6x9 speakers are not used for bass boxes they tend to distort the sound wave. The cylinder shape flared out like the cups allow them to be stacked, while allowing holes to be drilled in the bottoms for the vertical rods to run next to each other.
6. I disagree with designs that claim more efficiency because of pulsing the current. Or resonating at the frequency of water. HOGWASH.
7. I don't agree with Stan Myers Patent information. I tend to believe to was partly intentional to throw off people. You want current that is steady and electrolyte that is in as much contact as possible.
Some history...
The 1979 Water Powered Chevy was a complete different technology altogether. It actually utilized starter coils, one for each cylinder, that sent a massive jolt to a spark plug that was set with a wider gap than normal. This actually created a plasma explosion from the water that was fed into each cylinder (the same as gas is).
This is different than what we are doing here.
You can see how much gas I'm getting from just a small motorcycle battery. I see video where people are pumping way more into there cells and producing minimum amounts of gas. This cell produces way more than is needed for a burner. Last time I check it was producing 2-3ltr/min so much I had to make a longer bubbler. PVC is a pain in the ass to keep from leaking, plus you cant see the reaction. It also can ignite the gas accidentally due to static discharge. I would not recommend glass, although Ive built many out of mason jars. Mason jars are designed to withhold vacuum, not pressure, so be careful.
Always use a bubbler or you risk flash back from your torch end. I usually put 2 check valves in line and a cork at the top of my bubbler just in case it gets by and blows it up.
Ive created several prototypes over the years and have been there done that, blown my rigs up on plenty of occasions. Taken a sodium hydroxide bath more than I wanted to. So make sure you take proper precautions, and always wear your safety goggles.
Double check your connections, bad contact points or melting of the wire is bad. If you don't have a heavy gauge wire (similar to battery cables) running your device your not taking advantage of your power potential. Keep a close eye on the battery, don't let it pop. Place it under mineral oil if you really want to keep it cool.
Cant think of anything else off the top of my head. Free to ask questions, trust me I can probably save you a lot of time and sodium baths, due to having experimented with everything I could get my hands on. Titanium, Carbon, stainless dog bowls, power outlet covers, grease splatter covers, coffee thermos containers, water filters, etc. Yadda, yadda, yadda, BOOM!
:shock:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsNUgwcDrbU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOpv53LvFoc
Ive been working on HHO devices for many years now. Ive experimented with many different types of materials and electrode designs.
This design is in the patent process, but is protected with ip.com, so Im able to finally unveil it.
Briefly heres an overview of how this differs from the rest:
1. I use stainless cups that are stacked inside each other. They are spaced approximately 3/16 apart, and have a rolled upper lip at the top of each. This role is important, it creates a suction pulling the gas bubbles back toward the next cup colliding with the bubbles above, and pushing them away from the electrode quicker.
This is very important, Designs that use plates stacked one above another trap gas bubbles and dont allow them to move away.
Your objective is to have the electrolyte in contact with the electrode as much as possible. When a gas bubble forms, inside that bubble there is no contact, and therefore no gas production. So you want small bubbles that quickly get out of the way.
2. Stacking the cups aids in the bubbles motion off the electrode. Instead of plated designs that are places one next to another, they don't take advantage of the fast moving bubbles vertical motion. By stacking more cups you get more electrode surface ares and can handle more power.
3. By running the electrode contacts next to each other, you turn them in to part of the electrode. Take advantage of as much stainless surface area as possible for maximum gas production.
4. The next prototype my working with has a turbine spinning at the bottom under the column. This makes the electrolyte swirl around the electrode moving the bubbles away even more effectively.
5. The best shaped electrodes, I find to be cylinder shaped. Not Plates, spheres, rods, screen, or wire. Think of electricity like you would a sound wave. Speakers with the best sound quality are round shaped. Thats why 6x9 speakers are not used for bass boxes they tend to distort the sound wave. The cylinder shape flared out like the cups allow them to be stacked, while allowing holes to be drilled in the bottoms for the vertical rods to run next to each other.
6. I disagree with designs that claim more efficiency because of pulsing the current. Or resonating at the frequency of water. HOGWASH.
7. I don't agree with Stan Myers Patent information. I tend to believe to was partly intentional to throw off people. You want current that is steady and electrolyte that is in as much contact as possible.
Some history...
The 1979 Water Powered Chevy was a complete different technology altogether. It actually utilized starter coils, one for each cylinder, that sent a massive jolt to a spark plug that was set with a wider gap than normal. This actually created a plasma explosion from the water that was fed into each cylinder (the same as gas is).
This is different than what we are doing here.
You can see how much gas I'm getting from just a small motorcycle battery. I see video where people are pumping way more into there cells and producing minimum amounts of gas. This cell produces way more than is needed for a burner. Last time I check it was producing 2-3ltr/min so much I had to make a longer bubbler. PVC is a pain in the ass to keep from leaking, plus you cant see the reaction. It also can ignite the gas accidentally due to static discharge. I would not recommend glass, although Ive built many out of mason jars. Mason jars are designed to withhold vacuum, not pressure, so be careful.
Always use a bubbler or you risk flash back from your torch end. I usually put 2 check valves in line and a cork at the top of my bubbler just in case it gets by and blows it up.
Ive created several prototypes over the years and have been there done that, blown my rigs up on plenty of occasions. Taken a sodium hydroxide bath more than I wanted to. So make sure you take proper precautions, and always wear your safety goggles.
Double check your connections, bad contact points or melting of the wire is bad. If you don't have a heavy gauge wire (similar to battery cables) running your device your not taking advantage of your power potential. Keep a close eye on the battery, don't let it pop. Place it under mineral oil if you really want to keep it cool.
Cant think of anything else off the top of my head. Free to ask questions, trust me I can probably save you a lot of time and sodium baths, due to having experimented with everything I could get my hands on. Titanium, Carbon, stainless dog bowls, power outlet covers, grease splatter covers, coffee thermos containers, water filters, etc. Yadda, yadda, yadda, BOOM!
:shock:
Noxx
Well-known member
I like it 
Thanks for the info.
Thanks for the info.
ThePierCer
Well-known member
I've had amazing success producing HHO. It’s actually quite easy. My Cell maintains 10psi through a 3/8” line, and can produce up to 50psi within 1-2 minutes with the line closed.
On our first trial run, we managed to get a 8hp engine to run for 1 min on nothing but HHO gas, and our 2004 Chrysler 300 test vehicle is currently on a road test to Florida, averaging around 70 mpg with HHO assist. Our new design is considerably more efficient and has nearly doubled the gas production.
I can post pics of my design if anyone is interested.
On our first trial run, we managed to get a 8hp engine to run for 1 min on nothing but HHO gas, and our 2004 Chrysler 300 test vehicle is currently on a road test to Florida, averaging around 70 mpg with HHO assist. Our new design is considerably more efficient and has nearly doubled the gas production.
I can post pics of my design if anyone is interested.
70 mpg?! Where do I sign up?
I get like 24/28 mpg at the moment, and I still groan when I fill her up. Just imagine our European friends, they pay 2-3 times as much per gallon!
I'd like to see some pics--sick and tired of paying for H2 and O2 cylinders and adjusting the torches each time I want to do something. Would be cool if you could make a system that would keep the Hydrogen and oxygen separate for safety and also for adjust-ability--so I could have a reducing or oxidizing flame as needed.
I get like 24/28 mpg at the moment, and I still groan when I fill her up. Just imagine our European friends, they pay 2-3 times as much per gallon!
I'd like to see some pics--sick and tired of paying for H2 and O2 cylinders and adjusting the torches each time I want to do something. Would be cool if you could make a system that would keep the Hydrogen and oxygen separate for safety and also for adjust-ability--so I could have a reducing or oxidizing flame as needed.
ThePierCer
Well-known member
The problem most are having is safety storing the gasses, instead of producing them as necessary. We have a simple circuit that increases the current as demand requires it. As for the torch application, that can easily be done manually with a rheostat.
My design is in hydrias until my assistant returns from Florida (with my control circuit too).
I can tell you that initially we used SS disks in the Cell, and also experimented with a cylinder design similar to Stan Myers. We have switch to Platinum coated disks, when has kept the heat WAY down (around 80’f) while sustaining production.
My design is in hydrias until my assistant returns from Florida (with my control circuit too).
I can tell you that initially we used SS disks in the Cell, and also experimented with a cylinder design similar to Stan Myers. We have switch to Platinum coated disks, when has kept the heat WAY down (around 80’f) while sustaining production.
Hm, I have some beefy ~100g Pt anodes that would work.
Speaking of which, if any of you need Pt or Pt solutions for platinizing, let me know, I have good prices.
Speaking of which, if any of you need Pt or Pt solutions for platinizing, let me know, I have good prices.
istari9
Well-known member
I would like two units for the autos I drive. With gas moving to $4/gal I could use 75mi/gal instead of the 34 I get now. Let us know when you are in production and selling the units. A working model you can sell. May very well make you very wealthy! Your system Looks very nice indeed. Like I said I'll take 2.
Thanks, Ray
Thanks, Ray
Arcani,
How long will that 12V bat and water run that 5hp gen?
Randy
How long will that 12V bat and water run that 5hp gen?
Randy
A
Anonymous
Guest
1 horse power is 742 watts * 5 = 35,210 watt/hour but that is output you need more input to get that. If you ran the gen for 1 hour off of that battery with the generator at full load then it would be over unity.
If you ran it at no load use still most likely would not make it run for 1 hour.
a 12v battery at 6 amp hours would yeild only 72 watt/hours if that helps
If you ran it at no load use still most likely would not make it run for 1 hour.
a 12v battery at 6 amp hours would yeild only 72 watt/hours if that helps
Arcani said:
Go for it Peter.
I need to make a taller cell, as the water drops it exposes more of the electrodes and thus loses efficiency, I'll let u know how long 1 Litre of water will run the engine when complete.
That does help, I only run it for about a half hour at a time so far. The only test I've run is with a 1 litre bottle upside down in bucket to see how long it takes to fill it with gas. It takes 73 seconds to make 1 litre of gas with 12V battery at 2.4 Amps when cold(10-15 C) as it warms up it uses up to 5 Amps(30-35 C) running at idle speed. Maybe i could capture a set amount of gas in a container and see how long that will run the engine on its own.
Thank you for your input
Arcani
A
Anonymous
Guest
I would think that a 5 hp gen would have a displacement of at least 100 cc
and would run at 1000 rpm you would need 10 liters per min to fill the cyclinders. This is a educated guess on displacement and rpm you should be able to find the exact number on the gen
Correction forget 4 cycle only fires every other rpm so you would need at least 5 liter per min.
and would run at 1000 rpm you would need 10 liters per min to fill the cyclinders. This is a educated guess on displacement and rpm you should be able to find the exact number on the gen
Correction forget 4 cycle only fires every other rpm so you would need at least 5 liter per min.
I'm too lazy to do the maths on this for you when I know it'll just confirm what I already know.
I suppose you could use something simple like PV=nRT (basic ideal gas law) to solve for moles of gas produced per minute if you assume your pressure is 1 atm. but your V will be changing...you can even make a differential out of this. If you already know the volume produced in an hour, you can cheap out of some math and just use that old ''1 mole of gas at STP is 22,4 L in volume'' :roll:
Anyway, once you get the moles of gas produced, you can calculate (from textbook values) how many kilocalories or kilojoules are being released from burning that hydrogen with perfect stoichiometry. Then compare to how much energy the battery is capable of supplying and you should find that the amount of electricity the battery is providing to split the water is always more than the amount of energy that volume of H2/O2 gas produces when it burns. You'll never be close to perfect efficiency if your cell warms up. Even if it stays the same temperature it probably just means that the volume of water heats up at the same rate as it cools down to the surroundings.
Hm, this would be a good problem for those poor kids in general chemistry! Make them go through all those conversions just to find out that there is no over unity!! Good way to beat thermodynamics into their heads :twisted: Peter, this is a good question to implement in class!!
Oh, just thought of another good one Peter! Electrolytic calorimetry--have students construct an electrolysis cell for splitting water in an insulating vessel, then have them measure how much the system's temperature increases over a given period of time--from this they can determine how much energy is lost to heating the cell and find cell efficiency through that! This is fun stuff--I would be a diabolical textbook author!
I suppose you could use something simple like PV=nRT (basic ideal gas law) to solve for moles of gas produced per minute if you assume your pressure is 1 atm. but your V will be changing...you can even make a differential out of this. If you already know the volume produced in an hour, you can cheap out of some math and just use that old ''1 mole of gas at STP is 22,4 L in volume'' :roll:
Anyway, once you get the moles of gas produced, you can calculate (from textbook values) how many kilocalories or kilojoules are being released from burning that hydrogen with perfect stoichiometry. Then compare to how much energy the battery is capable of supplying and you should find that the amount of electricity the battery is providing to split the water is always more than the amount of energy that volume of H2/O2 gas produces when it burns. You'll never be close to perfect efficiency if your cell warms up. Even if it stays the same temperature it probably just means that the volume of water heats up at the same rate as it cools down to the surroundings.
Hm, this would be a good problem for those poor kids in general chemistry! Make them go through all those conversions just to find out that there is no over unity!! Good way to beat thermodynamics into their heads :twisted: Peter, this is a good question to implement in class!!
Oh, just thought of another good one Peter! Electrolytic calorimetry--have students construct an electrolysis cell for splitting water in an insulating vessel, then have them measure how much the system's temperature increases over a given period of time--from this they can determine how much energy is lost to heating the cell and find cell efficiency through that! This is fun stuff--I would be a diabolical textbook author!
Lou,
Your discussion reminds me of when I was working with the math associated with my Electronics courses, a whole lot of work to find out the answer is one or zero. :lol: :lol: Better yet I hated the ones that turned out to be negative one. Two pages of complex equations just to get a lousy 1 for the result.
Steve
Your discussion reminds me of when I was working with the math associated with my Electronics courses, a whole lot of work to find out the answer is one or zero. :lol: :lol: Better yet I hated the ones that turned out to be negative one. Two pages of complex equations just to get a lousy 1 for the result.
Steve
Hahahahah. They get even worse than that sometimes! Some of that electronics crap gets quite laborious! the 1 0 or -1 sounds very much like someone's doing signal processing, very much like a trig function, eh Steve? Bringing all the horror back now, am I?
My favorite is when you struggle through pages of derivatives, antiderivs, sums/series, partial sums, and every other bit of nuisance math you can think of that requires all sorts of obscure definitions and clever tricks only to get some darn answer like e^4/3 + pi/6 or some crap like that. Those natural numbers show up everywhere and e always seems to come out of any work I do/did with imaginary numbers. Seems also like a lot of series converge to pi multiples.
I'll let you all in on a secret...I don't like math. Well a few exceptions--Fourier transforms make a lot of nice analytical chem equipment work not to mention when they're up/low bounded...then they find use in making audio nice and crisp.
I can go on a rant about how I think mathematicians are sick, sick people...but I have tremendous respect for them!! Without them, we wouldn't live like we do.
My favorite is when you struggle through pages of derivatives, antiderivs, sums/series, partial sums, and every other bit of nuisance math you can think of that requires all sorts of obscure definitions and clever tricks only to get some darn answer like e^4/3 + pi/6 or some crap like that. Those natural numbers show up everywhere and e always seems to come out of any work I do/did with imaginary numbers. Seems also like a lot of series converge to pi multiples.
I'll let you all in on a secret...I don't like math. Well a few exceptions--Fourier transforms make a lot of nice analytical chem equipment work
not to mention when they're up/low bounded...then they find use in making audio nice and crisp. I can go on a rant about how I think mathematicians are sick, sick people...but I have tremendous respect for them!! Without them, we wouldn't live like we do.
That's all well and good and very true I am sure. I don't doubt the math.
But, think about a heat pump.
You get more heat into your room,
from the same amount of electricity,
by instead of converting the electrical energy directly to heat,
you use the energy to move heat from one place to another.
In this case from outside, into the room.
Just a thought.
Not even sure how it may
apply here, if at all, just trying to keep an open mind
on the matter is all.
Randy
But, think about a heat pump.
You get more heat into your room,
from the same amount of electricity,
by instead of converting the electrical energy directly to heat,
you use the energy to move heat from one place to another.
In this case from outside, into the room.
Just a thought.
Not even sure how it may
apply here, if at all, just trying to keep an open mind
on the matter is all.
Randy
