I agree 100% with you Harold if the white powder is indeed clean silver chloride but my thoughts were that we really don't know what exactly that white powder is as we have no assay to see if other elements were in the mix and converting and melting might not produce a clean enough product for the cell to process effectively. I will happily bow to you or any others when it comes to ores as I can see having read many hundreds of posts that they really aren't the easiest things to process let alone refine hence my timid approach and more than cautious attitude to exactly what that white powder is and how pure or otherwise it could be.
hi to all with knowledge
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Some good points raised, Nick.
I had to go back and review the posts, not quite understanding what was involved. My comments were directed at the previous post, without regard to the source of the assumed silver chloride.
The material shown that is suspected of being silver chloride, to me, clearly is not. That's not to say it doesn't contain some silver chloride, but I have yet to see silver chloride grow crystals, which are abundant in the photo. I'm also not pleased with the general appearance of the white material, which, to me, appears to be somewhat translucent. Silver chloride is opaque.
Were this my mess, I'd begin by boiling the unknown white material in water. I would then allow it to settle, and siphon off the solution while it is still quite hot, repeating that action at least twice. That would eliminate, hopefully, traces of lead.
Considering this material comes from ore, not from known material, I think I would then dissolve everything that would dissolve, with ammonium hydroxide. That solution I would separate from the solids, which I most likely would then discard. I can't visualize any values being present. The recovered solution would then be treated with HCl, which should precipitate silver chloride from any silver that is present. That material would be well washed, then converted to elemental silver using either scrap steel, aluminum, or zinc.
In any case, if purity is a concern, the ultimate refining would be parting in a silver cell.
I would note, I have rarely encouraged anyone to process ores by acid. While success may be achieved, it is generally very costly, and creates one hell of a lot of issues that are best not raised. Too much of the material gets involved in the reactions, creating a huge mess (like this one) and creating disposal issues. It's just not good sense.
Harold
I had to go back and review the posts, not quite understanding what was involved. My comments were directed at the previous post, without regard to the source of the assumed silver chloride.
The material shown that is suspected of being silver chloride, to me, clearly is not. That's not to say it doesn't contain some silver chloride, but I have yet to see silver chloride grow crystals, which are abundant in the photo. I'm also not pleased with the general appearance of the white material, which, to me, appears to be somewhat translucent. Silver chloride is opaque.
Were this my mess, I'd begin by boiling the unknown white material in water. I would then allow it to settle, and siphon off the solution while it is still quite hot, repeating that action at least twice. That would eliminate, hopefully, traces of lead.
Considering this material comes from ore, not from known material, I think I would then dissolve everything that would dissolve, with ammonium hydroxide. That solution I would separate from the solids, which I most likely would then discard. I can't visualize any values being present. The recovered solution would then be treated with HCl, which should precipitate silver chloride from any silver that is present. That material would be well washed, then converted to elemental silver using either scrap steel, aluminum, or zinc.
In any case, if purity is a concern, the ultimate refining would be parting in a silver cell.
I would note, I have rarely encouraged anyone to process ores by acid. While success may be achieved, it is generally very costly, and creates one hell of a lot of issues that are best not raised. Too much of the material gets involved in the reactions, creating a huge mess (like this one) and creating disposal issues. It's just not good sense.
Harold
Geo
Well-known member
i would have given pretty much the same advise but because its not known exactly whats in the material i thought it would be wise to convert to elemental silver and then digest in nitric acid and cement with copper. it seems like a long process but if you dont know what you have started with you certainly wont know what you will end up with. i suspected tin as it looks alot like the tin chloride crystals im so used to seeing in my processes but i dont know if tin is in elemental form in raw ore.
crazyman
Active member
The material in the photo is not all that clean, it has some solution and some copper in it, I have the necessary equipment for a silver cell on hand and that is my ultimate goal this week. I will watch steves video again to see if I can get my thinking straight. I will post my assay results as soon as I find them, seems I have a wife that can't allow papers to just lay around, unquote. If I remember correct the tin content in the concentrate assay was real low, .0008. The silver was high, real high around .8870. I don't remember all the numbers, I just knew that I needed to get all the silver out of the way before I could attempt any other metal. There was a list of 5 or 6 metals, looks like my goal this week also is to find a paper. I have a sheet of copper that is 1/16" thick, could I use it in a cell or is that for copper refining only? So help me understand the cell, I use the green solution for my electrolyte? And don't let the crystals short the circuit. My dirty crystals sure act and look like the clean crystals in the video? I have the black mud I might focus on while I'm getting massive amounts of these crytals out of the way, they obviously are saturated throughout the solutions. I'm getting more out every morning as the crockpots evaporate the excess water in the solutions. I imagine if the crystals are dissolved in nitric the solution will be green? I'm not giving up just yet, I know the lab is reputable. One more thing, could I use stripped steel welding rod in the cell? I have a lot of it with no use since thieves stole the welder.
Geo
Well-known member
please dont attemp the cell until you have a workable material. you need a better understanding of a silver cell.the electrolyte should be clear starting out and you should order a hardened graphite cathode from lazersteve before attempting it.study cell design and operation well in advance before trying it or you will cause yourself alot of problems.
philddreamer
Well-known member
Handling nitric acid can be deadly!
Must do the process outside or under a fume hood. Respirators don't work with nitric as they do with chlorine gases, & a dust mask is worthless!
Just in case you're not aware.
Educate yourself before jumping it any processing.
Take & be safe!
Phil
Must do the process outside or under a fume hood. Respirators don't work with nitric as they do with chlorine gases, & a dust mask is worthless!
Just in case you're not aware.
Educate yourself before jumping it any processing.
Take & be safe!
Phil
crazyman
Active member
I use a real nice fume hood and a cartridge respirator (see previous posts) Thanks for the input Harold and Geo! This info will keep me busy for a few weeks. The copper in the ore concentrates will precip all the metals below it without adding any to the solutions if I have been reading correctly? This mean the metals not targeted will stay in solution? Sorry that I'm slow at this if you read all of this thread you may have some info on my process and history of myself. My safety IS #1 or I would not be attempting this recovery. If anyone knows the Ely, Nevada area you might get an idea of the mineral and metal content in this area. I stated I used a series of sluices to eliminate most all the lighter materials out. Still looking for assay as previously posted.
publius
Well-known member
There is NO cartridge that will filter out the fumes from Nitric acid reactions! None! Nada! Do not risk your health!
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The problem with that idea, as I see it, is you don't eliminate any of the contaminants, what ever they may be. If the converted silver chloride isn't freed of other metals, they'll report in the silver and create the same problems that are present now, so there's not really much of an advantage. By dissolving in ammonium hydroxide, any silver that is present as silver chloride can be removed from the mess, so the unwanted material can be eliminated instead of recycled.Geo said:
I openly admit, I could be wrong. Personally, I'd have avoided the use of acid, full stop. The mess that is present is a good example of why I take that position. There's better ways to approach the project (although I am not privy to what would work).
Harold
crazyman
Active member
:x H
Yes, that would be a correct statement. As covered in prior posts. This would be information for those thinking of working with deadly chemicals. I am looking for help with recovering metals from concentrated ores however. Its an undertaking few have had success. It can be done but with a lot of steps to the process. This is the place to be for assistance needed short of working at a large scale refinery.nothing ventured nothing gained. I consider safety as a basic step before even beginning as I have stated in prior posts. I acknowledge the concern.publius said:
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Why am I getting the impression you've scheduled the recital, but you don't know how to play the piano?crazyman said:
The questions you are asking are very telling. You don't have a clue about how this process works, otherwise you wouldn't be asking about using copper or steel in a refining cell. Please do yourself a favor and put your project in neutral while you learn some of the basics. No one can spend the kind of time with you to hand carry you through the learning process---you're simply going to have to spend some time reading, all the while NOT doing anything. Making wrong moves may teach you what not to do, but they won't further your project.
For the record, you are not limited to using graphite as a cathode. 300 series stainless steel is one of the few exceptions of alloys that can be included in a silver cell, and makes a great cathode as well as the cell itself. Something as simple as pot from a restaurant steam table can serve as the cell for you.
Harold
crazyman
Active member
I agree, I wish my mind still worked like that. I posted my problem previously. I was very successful in my endeavors pre 2008. I once could process what I read, now its one thing at a time. I know you are a well educated man Harold as was I, they tell me I was a mine safety inspector, I have no recolection, its horrible to need to have instruction on simple tasks. That's why I needed special help. Nor do I remember many things pre 2008. Thank you Harold for reminding me that I just can't do things that requires retention in the memory center. I am sorry and blame God for making people see me differently than pre2008. I just can't do it!! I need to just get out a jigsaw puzzle. Thank you Harold and Geo for sharing your knowledge on a 12 year olds capacity of learning.
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It's that way for all of us. Really!crazyman said:
Refining isn't difficult---I often commented that I could teach a monkey to refine. What is difficult is knowing what to do, and when it should be done. That's the purpose in reading. If you read these things enough times, they'll sink in. I say this because I'm of such a nature that I "don't get it" quite often. It takes repetition for me to get a grasp on things----and constant guidance. I got mine from Hoke's book, as well as other journals. I had to spend considerable time studying before I achieved success, and even then it was a struggle.
My sincere appreciation for your kind words, but please understand that I am not (formally) educated, although I was fortunate to graduate from high school. I have almost no further education (a quarter each of math and chemistry). I have related my circumstances on many occasions. I was a miserable student that never cracked a book, and barely passed classes, with which I had little interest, with D grades. Nothing would build a fire under me that was strong enough to encourage me to pursue my studies as I should have. I am, for all practical purposes, a moron. :shock:
What I do have is a strong will and a desire to accomplish tasks---which is what I believe you and I share. Just as I achieved my goals, so, too, can you. Just be patient with the board, and do your homework. Once it starts making sense, it, more or less, cascades and starts falling in place. You CAN achieve your goal. You simply must be patient.
I, for one, am more than willing to provide the help (assuming I am able). The problem is, it's akin to giving sheet music to one that can't read music. When the processes become familiar (thanks to constant reading) and the terms become commonplace, instructions will begin to take on meaning.
That's all very unfortunate, but, please, don't take that attitude. You can do it. You simply must give yourself time to gather the required bits of knowledge that make it happen. You are fortunate to have this forum at your disposal. Many of us, here, are willing to go the extra mile, in particular if an individual has problems---but it begins with the individual doing his level best---applying one's time to study--becoming familiar with terms---so that guidance offered is useful. If we bombard you with all of the processes, you won't be able to sort those that apply from those that don't.
Be patient--and keep applying yourself to your project through research. When the time comes to attempt recovery, you'll have the required tools to do so. If you jump prematurely, there will be no end to questionable results, and you won't have enough knowledge to interpret what you're seeing.
Please trust me on this issue.
Harold
crazyman
Active member
Harold_V said:It's that way for all of us. Really!crazyman said:
Refining isn't difficult---I often commented that I could teach a monkey to refine. What is difficult is knowing what to do, and when it should be done. That's the purpose in reading. If you read these things enough times, they'll sink in. I say this because I'm of such a nature that I "don't get it" quite often. It takes repetition for me to get a grasp on things----and constant guidance. I got mine from Hoke's book, as well as other journals. I had to spend considerable time studying before I achieved success, and even then it was a struggle.
My sincere appreciation for your kind words, but please understand that I am not (formally) educated, although I was fortunate to graduate from high school. I have almost no further education (a quarter each of math and chemistry). I have related my circumstances on many occasions. I was a miserable student that never cracked a book, and barely passed classes, with which I had little interest, with D grades. Nothing would build a fire under me that was strong enough to encourage me to pursue my studies as I should have. I am, for all practical purposes, a moron. :shock:
What I do have is a strong will and a desire to accomplish tasks---which is what I believe you and I share. Just as I achieved my goals, so, too, can you. Just be patient with the board, and do your homework. Once it starts making sense, it, more or less, cascades and starts falling in place. You CAN achieve your goal. You simply must be patient.
I, for one, am more than willing to provide the help (assuming I am able). The problem is, it's akin to giving sheet music to one that can't read music. When the processes become familiar (thanks to constant reading) and the terms become commonplace, instructions will begin to take on meaning.
That's all very unfortunate, but, please, don't take that attitude. You can do it. You simply must give yourself time to gather the required bits of knowledge that make it happen. You are fortunate to have this forum at your disposal. Many of us, here, are willing to go the extra mile, in particular if an individual has problems---but it begins with the individual doing his level best---applying one's time to study--becoming familiar with terms---so that guidance offered is useful. If we bombard you with all of the processes, you won't be able to sort those that apply from those that don't.
Be patient--and keep applying yourself to your project through research. When the time comes to attempt recovery, you'll have the required tools to do so. If you jump prematurely, there will be no end to questionable results, and you won't have enough knowledge to interpret what you're seeing.
Please trust me on this issue.
Harold
crazyman
Active member
thank you for sharing Harold, I appreciate people like you to make my days better. Here is what I did now. I removed all the white crystals that was forming, adjusted the solution ph to 1.5 to 2, filtered and put in the smb, a purple brownish precip dropped out. i tested with stannous and it turned purple immediate. I am now rinsing. i have approx. 1/2 inch of mud in the bottom of a 5 gallon bucket, a very dense mud. I am trying to post a pic of it but not having luck, i will keep trying so I can get your thoughts on this precip., all the videos I have watched look exactly like what I have. I think I making progress.
crazyman
Active member
Thank youcrazyman said:
Geo
Well-known member
if your stannous test is still purple then you still have gold in your solution.after everything drops and settles decant (pour off slowly) the solution you have into another container leaving all the solids in the bottom of your container.test again,if you still get a positive test heat the solution to just below the boiling point and keep it there untill you evaporate half the volume.chech to see if any crystals form,there shouldnt be any but if there are let the solution cool and filter.double the volume with water and add SMB to precipitate the gold.
crazyman
Active member
Will do, yah I have everything testing positive now that I have half the solutions concentrated. I have a lot of gold that is slow dropping to the bottom. Its not a big concern right now since I have so much dropped gold to work with now. Its kin of funny that I have had all the gold in front of me but have been focused on the silver. I feel I need to get the silver out of the way so I don't have it contaminating the gold. I'm. Not positive all the white crystals are silver but I haven't been able to drop any gold with the crystals present. I removed the crystals with salt , filtered the solution then raised the ph and attempted the gold drop again after that and was shocked with the amount that dropped out. I used copper to drop out base metals weeks ago. I wish I could get the picture loaded to show the amount of mud I have drying in the oven right now. I will be melting tomorrow and still have 25 gallons of solution to sort through so there is a lot more to drop out. I'm processing this first batch to test my abilities and see if what I have read is working out correctly. Funny the gold has been there this entire time and all I needed to do was concentrate the solutions. Does the solutions need to have a certain ph to drop the gold as I have found 1 won't allow it to drop. The stannous test is showing platinum also but I am just just getting the gold process understood now so I'm taking it 1 metal at a time and wouldn't have been able to do it without Harold and Geo. I can get the Platinum out of the solutions waiting for the concentrating crockpots. Harold says you can't get Platinum out of dilute solutions and I'm taking that approach to all the solutions, it sure seems like it works better that way. I think it was Platinum Harold was talking about? Its all falling into place just like I have been reading. Its all a matter of patienceN especially with the material I started with. I can't thank Harold and Geo enough for their approach with my project. Hopefully this will help future members of the forum if they attempt this type of recovery. I shouldn't count any chickens just yet though since I haven't attempted melting this purple brown mud yet, I have my fingers crossed. I still am thankkful, I'm getting closer either way.
Attachments
Yeh I caught that too. If you dropped the metals with copper have you kept them? If so post a picture of what you have, it might explain the white crystals you showed as possible silver chloride.
By using copper to cement your solution all the values that were in your solution should have cemented out.
By using copper to cement your solution all the values that were in your solution should have cemented out.
