hi to all with knowledge
- Thread starter crazyman
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crazyman,
This post comes late, well on the heels of others I have provided. Please address the points I have raised.
One of the problems you're going to discover is that there are precious few on this forum that are knowledgeable in ores. Those that are may not be able to help, because ores are not a "one size fits all" type of project. They can be very difficult to process.
Here's some things to think about.
If you have a solution that contains chlorides, there won't be silver in solution, aside from miniscule traces, a phenomenon that is well known. The bulk of silver will have already precipitated as silver chloride. I mention this so you don't expect to recover silver from such a solution by cementing. In a nutshell, silver and gold can not be in solution at the same time in acid. That is not true of cyanide.
If you have subjected a chloride solution to cementation by copper, assuming you allowed the copper to remain long enough, and considering there was no reaction such that the addition of copper yielded brown fumes, there shouldn't be anything of value (precious metals) in the solution. All of it will have been cemented by the added copper.
If, when dissolving values with acid, there's any base metals present that have not already dissolved, as the acid level declines, any values that have been dissolved will cement, returning them to the gangue. In effect, you will not have recovered anything. That's one of the reasons using acid for processing ores is not recommended. By the time you've eliminated all of the problematic compounds/elements, you will have consumed a huge amount of acid and created volumes of waste materials that can be very difficult to manage. You may also struggle to separate the values from the resulting solution.
Please rethink this project.
Harold
This post comes late, well on the heels of others I have provided. Please address the points I have raised.
That is a mistake.. There is no good reason to concentrate that solution, and, in fact, it's the wrong thing to do. Assuming there was any silver present, it could have been extracted without concentration, and that, alone, would have minimized the amount of garbage you are dealing with. You should have simply introduced salt to the solution, while it was dilute. That would have precipitated silver as silver chloride. I fully expect there would not have been anything else of value in the solution, and maybe not even silver. Alternately, assuming there was silver in solution, you could have used copper to extract the silver. After the recovery of silver, the solution would most likely be barren of values. It would be, for sure, if copper was used. It would then be eliminated from the process. Under no circumstance should it be kept in the circuit.
No one can tell you from the information you have provided if you used enough acid, or not. That would be determined by the nature of the material. You would have been far better served to have worked with a small amount of this material, and kept impeccable records of what you did, and how much acid was consumed. You should have carried the first digest to the point where the further addition of nitric made no difference. If you did not, your work was not complete. It is for that reason you should have run a small test batch. From it you would have learned what it would take to arrive at the point where you could attempt to recover greater values.
This leaves me with questions. Did you add the HCl to the original solution, the one that contained nitric? If so, that was a mistake. The objective in using nitric for the initial digest is to eliminate unwanted substances before you attempt to dissolve values. Because silver dissolves in nitric, you would have expected a silver return, assuming you used enough acid. If you did not, it may well still be in the gangue. It also may be in a form that won't dissolve in nitric, so none would have been recovered. Bottom line is, had you not messed with the original solution, you would have been much better off.
I'm not convinced anyone can tell you what you have. Not without a credible assay, and even then it may not indicate what you're recovering.
One of the problems you're going to discover is that there are precious few on this forum that are knowledgeable in ores. Those that are may not be able to help, because ores are not a "one size fits all" type of project. They can be very difficult to process.
Silver chloride does not represent itself as crystals. It is best likened to fine cottage cheese. The crystals are almost assuredly not silver.
Want my opinion? Most likely nothing of value. The material you described most likely contains iron, along with copper. Combined they will yield a green solution. You may also be getting a false positive from stannous chloride. To test for gold, using stannous chloride, the most reliable test is to place a drop of the unknown solution in a spot plate (or a white plastic spoon ---thanks Palladium for that idea). Leave it for several minutes after applying a drop of stannous chloride. Disregard any color reactions you see when the drop is introduced. After ten or more minutes, rinse off the spoon or spot plate with a rinse bottle. If there is gold present, the test will show a purple stain. No stain--no gold.
Here's some things to think about.
If you have a solution that contains chlorides, there won't be silver in solution, aside from miniscule traces, a phenomenon that is well known. The bulk of silver will have already precipitated as silver chloride. I mention this so you don't expect to recover silver from such a solution by cementing. In a nutshell, silver and gold can not be in solution at the same time in acid. That is not true of cyanide.
If you have subjected a chloride solution to cementation by copper, assuming you allowed the copper to remain long enough, and considering there was no reaction such that the addition of copper yielded brown fumes, there shouldn't be anything of value (precious metals) in the solution. All of it will have been cemented by the added copper.
If, when dissolving values with acid, there's any base metals present that have not already dissolved, as the acid level declines, any values that have been dissolved will cement, returning them to the gangue. In effect, you will not have recovered anything. That's one of the reasons using acid for processing ores is not recommended. By the time you've eliminated all of the problematic compounds/elements, you will have consumed a huge amount of acid and created volumes of waste materials that can be very difficult to manage. You may also struggle to separate the values from the resulting solution.
Please rethink this project.
Harold
crazyman
Active member
It is done. I have learned a lot and am accepting the project as an *** whoopin from nature. I need :roll: a break anyhow. False positive stannous tests took me on one hell of a roller coaster ride. Thank you for all those that gave 110% helping me out. As I said I have learned A LOT. :roll:
jimmydolittle
Well-known member
Like harold has said, keep your language clean. There are women and probably children on here. I'm 68 years old, and I don't want to hear/read it!
crazyman
Active member
crazyman said:
Harold has how true a statement his signature line on his posts that is so very true, It reads " Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something." I'm such a bootlicker but this Thanksgiving I am thankful for Harold, Geo and Paladium, however; Harold went out of his way to help me! I'm not sure but I don't think he usually gives someone the kind of assistance I needed every day. I will make this my last thank you, since this is my 3rd or 4th? I feel it necessary to show my thanks for guiding me, I learned much and understood what I had read, then put it to use, even though the end result was not a melted metal. Looks like I'm falling into that catergory where I feel I need to say something, but thanks is due when one is truly thankful.. Out
crazyman
Active member
Thought I would let anyone following this thread that before I nuetralized my project I performed an experiment on said solution to find out just how much copper was involved with my false stannous tests. I put in a sheet of steel and bubbled air under it. Well the results of this cleared the solutions and dropped out. 1 to 2 and a half pounds per 7 quarts of solution {each crockpot holds 7 quarts} I still have some to go but I thought it would be a learning experience to see what all would drop out with the iron. The assay said silver was in there maybe I will run across it. From what I been reading its in the black mud that I have decided not to process due to so much involved work and Harold's adventure stories, if its anything involving Harold, metal and chemicals it is written in stone to me. I learned I have a clear as water solution after 5 hours of placing iron in solution. So I had a lot of copper, that's basic knowledge I should have known before starting this learning project, however I know a lot more now than 4 months ago thanks to this forum and the members and Hokes. Its ok to learn from failure as long as its not from an explosion or death, I just am out a few bucks but rack it up as tuition fees. Out.
crazyman,
I quickly just read this thread, and got the jest of it.
I too absorb what I read very slowly.
Hokes book in my opinion is what you need, it is written in simple language, easy to understand, and she gives you the experience you need when you follow step by step her getting acquainted experiments, this teaches you what metals will dissolve in what acids and how to identify them, she also teaches when to use certain acids or reagents and when not to, she teaches you how to test for values in solutions, this book was mainly written for recovery and refining of jeweler's waste, not ore or the electronic waste, but will teach you what principles you will need when dealing with them.
I suggest reading this book following her experiments, this will give you experience in seeing the reactions with your own eyes, (so you do not have to go by what you read but by what you experience hands on.
Also working with ore is a whole different animal than working with metals in more pure form, many methods we use for metals would not work well with ore, concentrating the values is very important, roasting the ores, removing base metals, and choosing a leach to recover values. The very complex nature of ore will raise many different problems, and solution's to these problems, so educating yourself is a must, here on the forum we have some very knowledgeable members who deal with ore, following their posts will also help you in this area.
Yes education is sometimes expensive but if you want to do something bad enough, you will, and nothing can stop you, except your giving up, it may take some work though.
I feel if the materials you had, had values, and they are still there, you could recover them (with better methods), after you educate yourself.
Refining Precious Metal Wastes C.M. Hoke http://tinyurl.com/mfnyhs
(REV) (Free Download)
Another good book I suggest is:
(Recovery and Refining of Precious Metals by C.W, Ammen).
This is a simple book, and more geared towards mining, and recovering values from ore, it is well written lots of pictures easy to understand, even miners who have been knocked in the head should have no trouble understanding it. I bought my book from Action Mining (they have a online catalog), lots of mining and other supplies, I am not advertizing for them, as there are many other places you can get this book, and whatmining supplies you need, maybe even cheeper.
Welcome to the forum,
I quickly just read this thread, and got the jest of it.
I too absorb what I read very slowly.
Hokes book in my opinion is what you need, it is written in simple language, easy to understand, and she gives you the experience you need when you follow step by step her getting acquainted experiments, this teaches you what metals will dissolve in what acids and how to identify them, she also teaches when to use certain acids or reagents and when not to, she teaches you how to test for values in solutions, this book was mainly written for recovery and refining of jeweler's waste, not ore or the electronic waste, but will teach you what principles you will need when dealing with them.
I suggest reading this book following her experiments, this will give you experience in seeing the reactions with your own eyes, (so you do not have to go by what you read but by what you experience hands on.
Also working with ore is a whole different animal than working with metals in more pure form, many methods we use for metals would not work well with ore, concentrating the values is very important, roasting the ores, removing base metals, and choosing a leach to recover values. The very complex nature of ore will raise many different problems, and solution's to these problems, so educating yourself is a must, here on the forum we have some very knowledgeable members who deal with ore, following their posts will also help you in this area.
Yes education is sometimes expensive but if you want to do something bad enough, you will, and nothing can stop you, except your giving up, it may take some work though.
I feel if the materials you had, had values, and they are still there, you could recover them (with better methods), after you educate yourself.
Refining Precious Metal Wastes C.M. Hoke http://tinyurl.com/mfnyhs
(REV) (Free Download)
Another good book I suggest is:
(Recovery and Refining of Precious Metals by C.W, Ammen).
This is a simple book, and more geared towards mining, and recovering values from ore, it is well written lots of pictures easy to understand, even miners who have been knocked in the head should have no trouble understanding it. I bought my book from Action Mining (they have a online catalog), lots of mining and other supplies, I am not advertizing for them, as there are many other places you can get this book, and whatmining supplies you need, maybe even cheeper.
Welcome to the forum,
Crazyman,
Listen to Butcher. I have read your posts and understand the hurdles you have in front of you. Hoke's book is indeed the best guide for you. As you read it, ask us any questions you have as a double check. Butcher is very correct in pointing out that the acquaintance experiments are very important in learning refining. My opinion is that those experiments are what sets Hoke above all others as a refining guide. Other books or references may have more details especially when it comes to current day scrap, but Hoke teaches you the hands on fundamentals that are required for a true understanding of what we do instead of just following a cake recipe, and not understanding how we made it taste good.
Listen to Butcher. I have read your posts and understand the hurdles you have in front of you. Hoke's book is indeed the best guide for you. As you read it, ask us any questions you have as a double check. Butcher is very correct in pointing out that the acquaintance experiments are very important in learning refining. My opinion is that those experiments are what sets Hoke above all others as a refining guide. Other books or references may have more details especially when it comes to current day scrap, but Hoke teaches you the hands on fundamentals that are required for a true understanding of what we do instead of just following a cake recipe, and not understanding how we made it taste good.
renatomerino
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2008
- Messages
- 76
Hello to the forum:
I have long been interested in the roasted ore particularly to gold and silver leaching.
This is a circular oven can be used for small and large quantities.
Basically camera has a fire in the bottom, a separate grill pallet, a combustion chamber on the grill and of course out the coolers and a bag filter to collect the roasted material not seen but I will provide photos later on.
The ore roasting contains 70 kg of silver per ton and the other is the calcined sample obtained.
The calcine is readily leached with solutions of 93% in initial tests.
The kiln feed is performed tires on the grill and the grain size is 100% minus 200 mesh.
I have long been interested in the roasted ore particularly to gold and silver leaching.
This is a circular oven can be used for small and large quantities.
Basically camera has a fire in the bottom, a separate grill pallet, a combustion chamber on the grill and of course out the coolers and a bag filter to collect the roasted material not seen but I will provide photos later on.
The ore roasting contains 70 kg of silver per ton and the other is the calcined sample obtained.
The calcine is readily leached with solutions of 93% in initial tests.
The kiln feed is performed tires on the grill and the grain size is 100% minus 200 mesh.
Attachments
crazyman
Active member
renatomerino said:
Nice!!
