Home AP Refining System - Collaborative Project

[jhize]

Hello All,

I am interested in building (with help) a complete home refinery for the AP Process. I have found equipment that handles the entire process but uses the AR method, like this one (Afftech 10000):

[img:289:218]http://www.afftech-refiners.com/English/Refiners_files/10000%20rid.jpg[/img]

I have not been able to locate a unit for the AP process and that makes me think that there isnt one out there. I saw a post some time ago where lazersteve mentioned something about pumps and tubing....I cant find it. Anyway, it seems to me that an AP unit would be a worthwhile project, espcially considering the brainpower within this forum.

Does anyone have any interest in developing an AP Refiner? Many of the subsystems such as fume hoods are already posted here but again I did not see a complete system. Also, by developing this system collaboratively we would not need any "special and proprietary" chemicals.

The reason I am interested in a system is that I have managed to secure a source of medium and high grade boards. The quantity that I will be receiving seems to be WAY beyond the 5 gallon bucket approach.

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Scott2357]

That unit looks like the ones Ralph (AflacGlobal, Palladium) used to sell. Seems like a very nice machine. Man I'd like to have one to play with/modify. It's computer controlled, recycles chemicals and high volume too ! 8)

 

[jhize]

Yeah, it looks nice but uses AR process. I'm hoping that we can somewhat replicate the functionality (fumes, recycling, ph, filtering etc) only with the AP process.

I'm thinking a cabinet similiar to NOXX's with all needed piping, pumps etc. Computer controls? Well, unless we have someone on the forum with that know-how, I'm thinking knobs and valves. Computer control sure would be nice though.

 

[Lou]

Interestingly enough, I have that EXACT same flask that's used in that machine and I have a very nice PTFE pneumatic pump that can pump aqua regia like water.

You say Ralph used to sell these? Is he affiliated with that company or did he start it? I didn't know he was really in the business but I honestly haven't read anywhere near all the information on this board.

 

[Noxx]

I have some experience with PID controllers and thermocouples, if this can help... But I'm sure other people too.

 

[Scott2357]

I'm sure there are others here that can help with computer control too but I know how to do those things. I've done work with several types of controls through the PC parallel port including voltage/current power supply output, temperature measurement/regulation, motor speed and solenoid actuation. It shouldn't be too hard to add things like ph measurment and flow control, etc.

I would love to do this but unfortunatly I don't have the time to develop it. I work a full time job as a test engineer (software) and part-time as a professional photographer so my plate's full right now. My old job for 20+ years was mostly hardware electronics with some mechanical experience designing/building custom test setups for our engineering lab and manufacturing.

Maybe I could find time for a little design in about a month or so if someone else could research requirements, do the hands-on work and provide accurate feedback. I can't promise anything though since it seems the photography business is growing right now and it's my "bad economy" backup/future retirement business.

 

[Scott2357]

Lou,

I think Ralph was a distributor, but I'm not sure about that. If I remember correctly the mid-range unit sold for about $14k and could produce up to 4Kg of .999 every 5-7 hours.

 

[jhize]

OK. This is a promising start. I will start on research and requirements. I suppose I will break the requirements into units of "specialization" (CAD?, mechanical, computer control, materials etc.). Those of you that are interested, can chime in where appropriate.

I'm quite sure we have the brainpower here, maybe with a little direction/organizing we can get it done.

 

[Lou]

Woah, $14,000 for that?

Well, people have to make money some how and they have costs too! For us to build a unit like that it would probably cost half of that, assuming we can reverse engineer it. There are ways to save a buck or two on the glass and some of the pumps.

 

[jhize]

This is not intended to be all-inclusive, just a bit of brainstorming. I suppose the begining is a good place to start. The system is tentatively planned to handle the entire AP process from the loading of materials to the recovery of gold powder.

1. Raw Materials - The requirements for the materials that this unit can handle. I am currently only interested in electronic scrap but others here will be interested in other forms of material (jewelery, nuggets? etc.)

2. Loading - The requirements for loading the materials. I'm hoping for a method where materials such as pins can be loaded into a section that will not allow them to fall through. Im thinking some form of compartmentalising of the materials.

3. Capacity - How much of the material can be processed at once? I'm hoping for a setup that can easily handle upwards of about ten pounds at once.

4. Chemicals - The requirements needed for the AP process. Lookng for a hands-off approach to introducing the chemicals to the materials. As in the photo from my first post, the jugs of chemicals are connected to the reactor by way of tubing. These requirements would include the Muratic/Hydrogen Peroxide solution mix, additional Hydrogen Peroxide in small increments, introduction of water for rinsing, Muratic washing, addition of Clorox for Auric Chloride, addition of SMB for precipitation. Other considerations, the ability to neutralize spent chemicals and method to measure and acheive desired PH levels.

5. Mechanical - The requirements needed to automate the process. This will include a mechanical motor stirrer for agitation, pumps, vacuums etc. I have also noticed that some of the AR systems actually "scrub" the fumes before releasing them through the hood, interesting.

6. Structural - The requirements needed to develop the unit itself. With an eye towards NOXX's cabinet (fume hood). Were looking for a design that can self-contain the components of the system. A "cabinet-style" system seems to be the best bet. The approprate materials (surfaces, apoxy, etc) would fall into this category.

7. Computer Control - The requirements needed to control the unit via a PC. I have to yield to others on the description here. Im not sure what the possibilities will be. However, flow control and motor controls would be in the mix.

8. Maintenance - The requirements needed to ensure that the unit can be easily disassembled and cleaned as needed.


Am I missing much? Add as appropriate.

 

[goldsilverpro]

You missed the most important item - chemical wastes. What will you do with them? You seem to be thinking big. If so, you will have enormous quantities of wastes.

 

[jhize]

Yeah that's a good question. How do the commercial AR systems handle the waste? I was under the impression that they are simply neutralized (ph 7). Either way, I will still need to determine the appropriate disposal method.

 

[Scott2357]

Wow, $6 per kg to process... sweet.

http://www.afftech-refiners.com/English/Refiners.html

 

[Anonymous]

Woah, $14,000 for that?

I know of chicken fryers that cost that much

 

[jhize]

I'm pretty sure the commercial AR systems reuse/recycle the solutions and that could explain the $6 per Kg efficiency.
I'm hoping that we can get some insight from members that have used these commercial systems. A lot of questions will be answered.

 

[goldsilverpro]

I misunderstood. When you said AP, I just assumed electronic scrap in an automated system. With karat gold, the waste wouldn't be as bad. However, simply adjusting the pH won't work. You still have toxic heavy metal wastes. You just changed them from a liquid to a solid. Have the acid wastes hauled off. Depending on the state, this will cost between $1 and $7 per gallon.

Why are to trying to reinvent the wheel? The automated systems work beautifully with aqua regia. They all are closed systems with excellent built in fume control. You could probably run most of them in your living room. And, aqua regia will work much, much, much better than any AP process. You're a smart guy. Why waste your time, money, and effort on a losing cause?

 

[Noxx]

Hmmm, I taught AR was unable to dissolve 10k gold and lower due to the Silver Chloride layer forming...

 

[jhize]

:shock: Well, I guess because I'm not that smart at all. I have used lasersteve's AP process exclusively and I'm very comfortable with it. Plain and simple it works. I don't see how AR could work better. Although I'm sure I have a lot to learn still.

Working from 5 gallon buckets, I was also under the impression that AP is safer in terms of fumes (I don't like the idea of toxic red vapor). Of course, in a self contained unit, that problem is eliminated.

So to my point, If both AR and AP accomplish the same results, why isn't there an AP system? Is AR far superior to AP? How and why? Yes, I am asking for a technical answer. You may be (and probably are) correct, I just need to know specifically why.

On another note, I'm not particularly fond of refining systems that use their own proprietary solutions. It is my position that a unit could be designed that would minimize its overall expense and dependence on a third party. It seems to me that an automated AP system would be cheaper to operate, long term. Again, I could be wrong - so could you help me (us) out with this a bit further?

Thanks again for your input, I'm looking forward to more.

 

[goldsilverpro]

Hmmm, I taught AR was unable to dissolve 10k gold and lower due to the Silver Chloride layer forming...

I never had much trouble dissolving anything except green gold directly in AR. However, there was always a little bit of undissolved gold that I got next time. I didn't usually inquart, to begin with, because it was just extra work and chemicals and usually it wasn't necessary with my particular technique. I used a lot of heat and, if I had to, I would maybe once remove the AgCl crust with ammonia. I could do a batch of karat gold in an 8 hour day - from start to pure bullion. I do agree with inquarting for the amateur because it always works. If you have trouble with 10K, use nitric before the AR.

jhize,

Maybe, I'm misunderstanding everything. What do you want to dissolve with the AP machine? Karat gold? Electronics? If it's karat gold, how long does it take from start to finish? Have you ever inquarted karat gold with copper and then used AP - might be interesting? Do you want to sell this machine or just develop it?

No offense, but, I hate refining machines. I'm too much of a hands on guy. I adapt my process, as I go along, to the slight variations in the material I'm running. That way, everything goes faster and smoother. With a machine, you're locked into one cycle. When these machines first came out, they sounded great. Every refiner bought the equipment to build their own. Most soon got rid of the machines and went back to hands-on. Machines are great to help prevent internal theft.

 

[jhize]

Currently, I am processing electronic scrap only. What's more, I'm fortunate enough to be dealing with fingers near exclusively. I have a supplier that ships this material to me and wants to start sending bulk weight.

I have never used anything other than AP and have never processed anything other that circuit board plating. Yeah, I'm still a novice - just lost my "newbie" title on my last post - woohoo!

I understand what you're saying about your hands-on approach. There have been times when a machine probably would have been counter-productive, especially when I processed a great deal of pins at once. However, I will be dealing with fingers only, for some time to come. Anything over two pounds of fingers presents an issue in a 5 gallon bucket because of the overlap of materials.

I have adapted my process by using rectangular totes but this requires more chemicals. I'm just looking for a happy medium.