Home AP Refining System - Collaborative Project

[goldsilverpro]

I finally understand what you are doing.

Please realize that only an amateur would use the AP process on electronic materials. And, you guys are very lucky that Steve developed it for you.

However, a professional refiner wouldn't be caught dead using it. It's too easy and cheap to burn, grind, screen, melt, sample, and ship to a copper smelter - bang, bang, bang, finished. No chemicals. No hazardous waste. No muss. No fuss. But, it's not for the small operator. It's too expensive to set up, legally. Not to mention the permits you need.

 

[Noxx]

I never had much trouble dissolving anything except green gold directly in AR. However, there was always a little bit of undissolved gold that I got next time. I didn't usually inquart, to begin with, because it was just extra work and chemicals and usually it wasn't necessary with my particular technique. I used a lot of heat and, if I had to, I would maybe once remove the AgCl crust with ammonia. I could do a batch of karat gold in an 8 hour day - from start to pure bullion. I do agree with inquarting for the amateur because it always works. If you have trouble with 10K, use nitric before the AR.

Ya that's what I used to do too (a while back). But I had some failures for reasons I didn't know.

I'm still experimenting different approaches for karat gold (cell, inquart, plain AR, nitric, etc). I expect to get some contracts this summer for karat gold, and I want to find an efficient and cheap way to process it. I also plan to incorporate Butyl Diglyme into the process to extract gold chloride from solutions. I already have one quart and as you know, it can be reused.

Also, how did you manage to recover the silver from karat gold when it was in Silver Chloride form ? Did you vacuum filter the gold solution, then kept the white powder for further recovery ?

Any advices on how to process karat gold commercially are welcomed

Thanks

 

[goldsilverpro]

I converted the AgCl in a gas furnace at low temperature with soda ash.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=qxQwAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=4306902

Then I added the converted silver and undissolved gold to other silver and ran it through the silver cell.

Any advices on how to process karat gold commercially are welcomed

I would follow Harold's silver inquartation method. He's given it in great detail and it works. That way, you'll get it all the first time. Also, the aqua regia won't be very contaminated and you shouldn't have many problems with gold purity. Just invest in some scrap sterling and recycle it over and over.

 

[SapunovDmitry]

Hey guys, can you give a link to some waste mangement details in aqua regia process?
P.S. I am visiting grandma from tomorrow and week ahead, so i wouldn't be able to post a reply.

 

[jhize]

OK. So in short, what you are saying is that I'm attempting to take an amatuer process high-tech. My time and money would be better used if I were to drop the AP process all together.

Ok. Live and learn, right? I'll have to read up on AR and other techniques. Could you enlighten me a bit on that burn, grind, melt etc. process you referred to?

 

[goldsilverpro]

This patent is also interesting.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=RFB8AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4

 

[goldsilverpro]

OK. So in short, what you are saying is that I'm attempting to take an amatuer process high-tech. My time and money would be better used if I were to drop the AP process all together.

Ok. Live and learn, right? I'll have to read up on AR and other techniques. Could you enlighten me a bit on that burn, grind, melt etc. process you referred to?

If anyone wants to do electronic materials chemically, with chemicals that are available to the amateur and are reasonably safe and cheap, Steve's acid/peroxide or his acid/bleach methods are probably the best in the world. The technology for these has been around forever but, he's taken it to a very high level. My only complaint about these methods is that I don't feel that they are profitable on a large scale, when you have to consider such costs as labor, chemicals, safety, fume control, and waste considerations. I would love to be wrong about this but I would have to see the numbers.

Aqua regia or nitric acid alone is definitely not the way to go on pins, fingers, boards, etc. The only exception I can think of is high grade CPU packages. On most electronic stuff, Steve's methods are far, far better than HNO3 or AR.

If you want to make money refining electronics chemically, you need to find a way to strip the gold without dissolving the base metal. For certain things like pins, the sulfuric cell works beautifully. Cyanide works the best for ordinary plating but not at all for gold brazing alloys or solder. For these, the sulfuric cell is necessary. But, for the average person, cyanide is out of the question. Iodine/KI or Br2/KBr both strip gold selectively, but they are very expensive.

The burn, grind, etc. method is not a true refining method. It concentrates the material, makes it homogeneous (so it can be sampled), and prepares it for a smelter:

(1) Everything is incinerated.
(2) It is ball milled to grind up the ash
(3) It is screened to separate the ash (called pulp) from the metallics (wires, etc.)
(4) The metallics plus any loose pins, etc., laying around are melted and cast into bars
(5) The 2 fractions, pulps and bars, are sampled and assayed.
(6) The 2 fractions are shipped to a primary (usually) copper smelter for refining. I doubt if the smelter will even talk to you unless you have at least a ton of material.
(7) You get paid in about 3 months, for certain percentages of copper and all the precious metals. You are penalized for certain percentages of other metals. For example, a nickel content over 5%. After the smelter gets his own assays, you can get advances, but you pay interest on the money. The overall return is usually excellent.

 

[Rag and Bone]

GSP

Everything about the burn, grind, etc. method seems possible from the small operator perspective except the incineration. Do you know any way to incinerate safely on a small scale?

 

[Noxx]

You could build a waste oil burner to burn (or melt) economically many things. Waste vegetable oil is free. I'm pretty sure one of those burners could be adapted to burn electronic wastes.

Visit backyardmetalcasting.com for more informations.

 

[Rag and Bone]

Burning isn't the hard part, dealing with the fumes responsibly is the tricky part.

Are there business's around that would have incineration capacity that I don't know about?

 

[aflacglobal]

An inside look maybe ?

Last time i talked to the doc the 10,000 series was going for about $ 36,000 retail.

 

[DNIndustry]

Ive got a giant Aluminum smelter out at the farm.

its probably 6ft wide by 4ft deep and 6ft tall. with 2 blowers and 3x6ft stacks. anyone ever use one?

 

[Lou]

Nothing that big!!! I thought I was something special with a full #20 crucible of aluminum. That's a monster that you have. Might be cheap to run if you can get it fired off of waste motor or vegetable oil.


Lou

 

[aflacglobal]

Ive got a giant Aluminum smelter out at the farm.

its probably 6ft wide by 4ft deep and 6ft tall. with 2 blowers and 3x6ft stacks. anyone ever use one?

Huuummmmm. Yep. :wink:


You have an aluminum sweat furnace, not smelter.

Three guesses.

Sounds like a United 550-A or maybe a 466

An aluminum king or

An Aramco 1500

I started and sold a company that designed and manufactured aluminum sweat furnaces a few years back. I was looking at setting up a website to market them. I never did get the site set up, but I did do a simple experimental promo site. Let me see if it is still active.
Well I guess not. That’s what happens when you don’t pay your hosting fees for several years I guess. It was up until last year or maybe the year before that. I have some good pics and plans on backup somewhere buried in my storage bld. I’ll see if I can find them and post some pics.
http://www.recycleinme.com/rim-mathes/home.aspx



What type of gas set up is on it ? I built them to run on heating oil, propane, and natural gas. Propane gives more bang for the buck. You have to figure how much it cost per therm ( 100,000 Btu’s ) to produce the heat needed ( 1350-1475 degs F ) You can’t use waste oil to fire them anymore. The EPA will come visit you. You can use heating oil, but not waste oil. Even then you have to have an air permit. $ 2,5000 per year here in Alabama and a 20 page application. Plus you have to run a data logger to record your afterburner temperature . The afterburner is in the stack and has to maintain 1500 degrees F and hold the air in the chamber for a Min of 1.5 sec to destroy any dioxins and furans from the main hearth chamber. Does it have a separate chamber to hold the molten aluminum separate from the main hearth or is it just one single box ?

Talk about a hot job this is one for the books. But when it’s set up and run right it can make you a small fortune. We use to pour 1,000 Lb ingots ( sows ) Each one worth $ 800-$ 1,000 depending on the make up of aluminum verses trash. The furnaces I designed and built were capable of producing about 6-8,000 lbs/day , depending upon the feedstock. I also made smaller models. The smaller ones went from $ 12,000 for what I call a weenie roaster all the way up to big bertha. The big boys took me about 6 weeks to fab and build and sold for $ 128,000. My cost to fab and ship was about $ 80-90,000 depending on what state I had to submit my plans to the EPA for. God, Did I love to hate those guys. Then another $ 8,000 for on site set up and 1 week training. The shipping was on the customer. The machine had to be shipped in 3 pieces and weighted about 85-90,000 lbs. I would go through a 40,000 lb truck load of scrap in about 3 days time. Magnesium was a killer to the price of the product. It difficult to separate Mag from alum because of the similarities of the characteristics of the metals. The feed stock was made up of heavy gauge alum scrap not thin materials like sheet or foil those are done in a Reverbatory furnace because they will vaporize and go up the stack if not processed right. The best feedstock was alum transmissions, alternators, lawnmower engines, boat motors, ect. My cost then was 15-20 cents a pound, Then you have about 5 cents a pound for fuel. Another 10-15 cents labor and equipment cost ( forklifts, Ect ) and about 1-2 cent/lb trucking cost.

So that’s 40-45 cents/Lb to buy, ship, and process the material and it sold for 80 cents to $ 1 lb. That’s somewhere around 45 cents/Lb profit @ 22,000lbs ( 40,000 Lbs minus melt lose such as steel content which what steel came out of the furnace I sold for about 5-7 cents/Lb ) Mag was a 10-15 cent penalty, Ouch. The slag skimmed of the top was sold for a recovery percentage, usually I got about 60-70 percent return. Sound like refining hugh. Lol Anyway you could make from $ 8,000 – 10,000 on a truck load in 3 days. About $ 15-20,000 a week. That’s why I got that kind of money for the machine. I even had a lease back company in Atlanta that would finance them with $ 10,000 down.

Anyway hope that helps.

Ralph

 

[DNIndustry]

wow... that was awesome information. I love hearing other peoples story.
Probaly took an hour to write. Thank you.

I may go an look at the bitch today. The farm is my partners previous scrap yard. His newer one is 1 mile away. So tranportation is minimal. He charges for pickups, or gets items dropped off. Also the land is zoned M3. I believe inclusive of all but nuclear waste, but their may be a problem with the height of the stack. their are 3 modular 6ft sections but only 2 are affixed to it.


The unit is propane based. The middle is the shape of a microwave and the bottom is an inverted pyramid. If facing it; to the right there is a swiveling hammer/plug for the metal to exit. There is a large catch basin that swivels. Their is also some 5ft pentagram shaped table/stand next to it. Ill take some pictures.

Think it could be modified to do anything else? If polution and the epa is te issue, I wonder if I could retrofit it to be a really big electric.

 

[Scott2357]

DNI,

I think a lot of us would like to see some pics of this beast

 

[Palladium]

I finally pulled out some old info. Hope you enjoy. 8) 8)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/16393066/Alumco-Sweat-Furnaces-Forum?secret_password=1ylorjbjrtq5nhg0ytmj

 

[Palladium]

Well when it got converted for online posting some of the pics got misplaced, but you will get the general overview.

 

[Anonymous]

Several years ago I was looking int a gold refining system like Aflac Global produces. They were made in India and somewhere I have a flier from them. I am looking for perhaps other companies which make these kind of machines and the prices of them. First I was wondering if anyone of you use a machine similar to this? Second does all of the pieces need to be ground up before the refining process or can you just put in scrap jewelry or dental gold? Does it seperate silver as well. Just doing my homework I have purchased scrap for many years but just sent to refiners. I always felt shortchanged and never got the small stones back that was in the jewelry. Also any recommendations on a refiner would be appreciated.

 

[Gold]

Several years ago I was looking int a gold refining system like Aflac Global produces. They were made in India and somewhere I have a flier from them.

They are made in Milan, Italy by Afftech.
But you don't need one of them ( Cost to much ). All you need to know is right here on this forum.

Welcome to the forum. Look in my sig line for most the info you will need.