How drop all gold from AR

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Ayham Hafez

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 7, 2023
Messages
493
Location
Lybia
Hello!

Why always when cement AR waste with copper for example we get some gold inspite of AR color is colorless and stannous chloride test is negative? I'm talking about AR used in re-refining gold so there is no PM's and the cemented metal is 100% gold.

Even if its small amount, is there any method to drop 100% of gold from AR?

My tested methods for dropping gold are with SMB and ferrous sulfate.
 
Ayham Hafez said:
Hello!

Why always when cement AR waste with copper for example we get some gold inspite of AR color is colorless and stannous chloride test is negative? I'm talking about AR used in re-refining gold so there is no PM's and the cemented metal is 100% gold.

Even if its small amount, is there any method to drop 100% of gold from AR?

My tested methods for dropping gold are with SMB and ferrous sulfate.
Click to expand...
Well, that is why we use stock pots.
When we have enough waste we cement on Copper and divert it to the waste handling stream.
 
Yggdrasil said:
Well, that is why we use stock pots.
When we have enough waste we cement on Copper and divert it to the waste handling stream.
Click to expand...
Regardless E-waste, let's say I want to make gold refining small business, for gold come from mines that usually come 18 karat and above, if I want to refine it as a service, should always customer wait till I cement the AR waste? Or for this kind of business traditional gold dropping methods are not accepted and I have to use electrolysis method which I think it needs longer time than SMB/ferrous sulfate precipitating?
 
it is typical to leave a few PPM of gold in solution when aqua regia refining. On top of that there are the values that slip through from decanting or poor filtration. No refiner can capture it all on a first pass. That is why cementation of your waste is effective, in addition to missed Gold you. get the PGM's which are in low concentration in the feedstock as well.

The quantities we are discussing from individual lots are small but in time add up.
 
4metals said:
it is typical to leave a few PPM of gold in solution when aqua regia refining. On top of that there are the values that slip through from decanting or poor filtration. No refiner can capture it all on a first pass. That is why cementation of your waste is effective, in addition to missed Gold you. get the PGM's which are in low concentration in the feedstock as well.

The quantities we are discussing from individual lots are small but in time add up.
Click to expand...
Can I reduce the quantity of gold in waste AR by diluting AR with water before precipitating or add more HCl so PPM of gold will be less since solution volume is more?
 
In the refining industry, this is what is termed "accountability". The refiner usually says they are accountable for returning 98 or 99% of the values to the customer. The last 1 or 2 percent are the losses in melting to shot, refining, melting to buttons or bars, etc. No refiner I've ever seen promises 100% accountability because there are always those trace amounts Yggdrasil and 4metals have mentioned.

Dave
 
Ayham Hafez said:
Hello!

Why always when cement AR waste with copper for example we get some gold inspite of AR color is colorless and stannous chloride test is negative? I'm talking about AR used in re-refining gold so there is no PM's and the cemented metal is 100% gold.

Even if its small amount, is there any method to drop 100% of gold from AR?

My tested methods for dropping gold are with SMB and ferrous sulfate.
Click to expand...
Did you test that cemented powder? Is it gold?
 
Martijn said:
Did you test that cemented powder? Is it gold?
Click to expand...
Yes it's, 4 metals mentioned that its only 2 ppm but its more than that, approximately its more than 50 PPM depends on my several tests, FrugalRefiner reply make sense, but what I want to make sure that could I reduce it by increasing the AR volume before gold dropping or not.
 
FrugalRefiner said:
In the refining industry, this is what is termed "accountability". The refiner usually says they are accountable for returning 98 or 99% of the values to the customer. The last 1 or 2 percent are the losses in melting to shot, refining, melting to buttons or bars, etc. No refiner I've ever seen promises 100% accountability because there are always those trace amounts Yggdrasil and 4metals have mentioned.

Dave
Click to expand...
I think 1 to 2 percent is too much, and that increase my wondering about how refiners and gold traders work and get benefits.

Here in my country, local gold market buy gold depends on analysis and LME stock price without any deduction, then they take the impure gold and export it outside to sell it and for sure they get benefits from that but how?

For example if analysis report of the impure gold ingot is 77.3% and gold price today is 63.3% so they will pay for the impure gold 63.3 * 77.3%

If refiners out side loss 1,000 PPM (you mentioned 1% which is 10,000 ppm), so how the traders get benefit from gold trading?
 
Ayham Hafez said:
I think 1 to 2 percent is too much, and that increase my wondering about how refiners and gold traders work and get benefits.

Here in my country, local gold market buy gold depends on analysis and LME stock price without any deduction, then they take the impure gold and export it outside to sell it and for sure they get benefits from that but how?

For example if analysis report of the impure gold ingot is 77.3% and gold price today is 63.3% so they will pay for the impure gold 63.3 * 77.3%

If refiners out side loss 1,000 PPM (you mentioned 1% which is 10,000 ppm), so how the traders get benefit from gold trading?
Click to expand...
No refiner pays 100% spot for dore around 70% / 80%.
So that will be more like 63.3 (dollars?) * 0.773 purity * 0.95 or way less.
That 5% is 50.000 ppm.
how much they pay you depends on purity, possible unwanted metals in the alloy which will bring the price down even more, and total weight of the dore.
Getting your gold up to 5 nines fine, can deliver a premium, but then have a look at the prices you pay for an officially recognized stamped four nines fine ounce bar... is that on the spot price? no! it's way way over it.

Us craftsmen (small refiners or hobby refiners) do not get full value out of the precious metals they refine, to be able to sell a stamped product you need to have permits, register, etc etc. small guys can not or it wil be too costly. Big boys can lobby the legislator for advantages and rules impossible for the small guys to comply to. imo.
 
And that 1 or 2 percent "loss" is not really lost. It will be recovered when crucibles, slag, filters etc. are cleaned and reprocessed. > refiners "stockpot" / piggy bank. So if there is warned for 1 or 2 percent loss in advance, expect at least 2.05 percent to get "lost" ( 1 or 2 is quite a big margin and tolerances are pushed toward the favor of the one doing the work) "the refiner is always the last liar"
 
I could be wrong, but it seems to me people just make money on the margin. When spot ticks down, they buy for 80% or so and hold until the spot ticks up, then use their permits to sell big to megarefiners at closer to 98% of spot. If you're not living hand to mouth, or if youre not just a small operation, this strategy can yield a lot of gains. It is about scale and margins.
Let's say spot is 2000usd one day. You pay 80% that's 1600usd for an ounce. A guy comes in with a dore weighing 31.1g but XRF says it is only 60% gold. You pay him 960usd, because you're buying from private citizens and that's what you get most times. But added all up not counting alloys, you've got 10oz of actual gold you bought in various forms you can turn around with your license and sell to the big guys. You wait til gold ticks up just 5%, and sell for even just 90% of spot. Let's see: a five percent increase over spot at 2k is 2100usd. 90% of that is 1890/oz and so that dore is now worth 1136usd to you. That's 174usd for almost nothing by playing the margins. The smaller the margins like 1 percent, the scale is simply larger to achieve the same type of yields.
 
Martijn said:
No refiner pays 100% spot for dore around 70% / 80%.
So that will be more like 63.3 (dollars?) * 0.773 purity * 0.95 or way less.
That 5% is 50.000 ppm.
how much they pay you depends on purity, possible unwanted metals in the alloy which will bring the price down even more, and total weight of the dore.
Getting your gold up to 5 nines fine, can deliver a premium, but then have a look at the prices you pay for an officially recognized stamped four nines fine ounce bar... is that on the spot price? no! it's way way over it.

Us craftsmen (small refiners or hobby refiners) do not get full value out of the precious metals they refine, to be able to sell a stamped product you need to have permits, register, etc etc. small guys can not or it wil be too costly. Big boys can lobby the legislator for advantages and rules impossible for the small guys to comply to. imo.
Click to expand...
I think pricing is depends on the country, today from morning I went to the gold market and discussed with gold trader about how they buy 100% LME price and then they export and at end they get benefits. He simply said we don't get any benefits from gold ingots since they pay same as what they get, but their benefit is from jewellery that government permit them to import against what they exported, so if you didn't export gold ingots you can't import jewellery
 
Paul Allee said:
I could be wrong, but it seems to me people just make money on the margin. When spot ticks down, they buy for 80% or so and hold until the spot ticks up, then use their permits to sell big to megarefiners at closer to 98% of spot. If you're not living hand to mouth, or if youre not just a small operation, this strategy can yield a lot of gains. It is about scale and margins.
Let's say spot is 2000usd one day. You pay 80% that's 1600usd for an ounce. A guy comes in with a dore weighing 31.1g but XRF says it is only 60% gold. You pay him 960usd, because you're buying from private citizens and that's what you get most times. But added all up not counting alloys, you've got 10oz of actual gold you bought in various forms you can turn around with your license and sell to the big guys. You wait til gold ticks up just 5%, and sell for even just 90% of spot. Let's see: a five percent increase over spot at 2k is 2100usd. 90% of that is 1890/oz and so that dore is now worth 1136usd to you. That's 174usd for almost nothing by playing the margins. The smaller the margins like 1 percent, the scale is simply larger to achieve the same type of yields.
Click to expand...
Hi
1-2% losses here and there from time to time is not sooo bad in my world.
For my own part, it is not the main issue itself to buy karat material at the best price, refine and put my stamp on the result, which is my goal.

I consider that my small-scale side business to my regular work, which gold/silver processing is for me, SHOULD be a challenge.

I have not bought anything other than the chemicals, protective equipment, fume hood, gas burner etc that I need. The starting material itself has always been and should be free or only for a symbolic sum (discarded electronics + the flea market), is my motto.

I started from absolutely ZERO, found this forum just like many others, when I had "stuck", studied and learned from my own and others' mistakes, to today have built up my own stock (enough for me) from only e -waste and flea market finds.

I have received so much wise advice and solutions to various e-waste problems and other things here from both newbies and veterans (You know who you are). But that's just my story.

But with patience, sensitivity, an interest in learning and lots of humility, you will go a long way here. Because it IS POSSIBLE to build up a nice "stash" from e-waste alone, if even I can manage it hihi
So keep on, be safe :)
/Dennis
 
1bigboy said:
I neglected to neutralize nitric in AR solution…added sodium metabisulfite and now can’t get gold chloride to drop…color goes from green to brown…how to I recover ?
Click to expand...
Cement with copper or zinc if your solution contains only gold
 
1bigboy said:
I neglected to neutralize nitric in AR solution…added sodium metabisulfite and now can’t get gold chloride to drop…color goes from green to brown…how to I recover ?
Click to expand...
It started as 18kt which may contain Ag and Cu..plus solder… no inquart so I’m not sure it meets the gold only standard… any other thoughts ?
 

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