Hydrogen Fuel Cell

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Harold_V said:
eeTHr said:
If this were actually scientifically tested, and found to repeatedly show a significant gain in milage, then the only question left would be why it works.
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No question at all. If it works, it's because you have provided a method of converting energy that has been wasted to useful energy in propelling the vehicle. There is a finite amount of energy contained in any given fuel. How you use it makes the difference.

If you, and all others will keep one thing in mind, these things become self evident. It's pretty simple, although there are factions that don't want to accept the fact that "there is no free lunch". There is no perpetual motion, and one can never operate a vehicle without expending energy. If there are no other losses, there's always friction, such as the tires in contact with the road.

Harold
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all great points although, Not sure anyone is looking for a free lunch, Just a more economical one.

Btw, For anyone still playing with the Browns Gas Cell for your Car here are some helpfuls.

Sulfuric acid for an electrolyte works nicely, Also every 776 watts of juice the cell absorbs will rob 1 horsepower from your car.
 
Harold[/quote]
all great points although, Not sure anyone is looking for a free lunch, Just a more economical one.

Btw, For anyone still playing with the Browns Gas Cell for your Car here are some helpfuls.

Sulfuric acid for an electrolyte works nicely, Also every 776 watts of juice the cell absorbs will rob 1 horsepower from your car.[/quote]

Harold,
You hit the nail on the head with the power required to produce the gas(HHO)mix to add, it does not come from electricity the alternater is already generating and wasting, it makes the alternater generate more electricity, placing a heavier load on your engine, making you use more fuel.

If you want to find out how this works, get one of them little 1.5 volt hobby motors and turn it with your hand it will turn very easily, as will any alternator without a load on it, now take a wire and connect the leads as a dead short, try and turn it, you will find that even this tiny motor will be hard to turn.
Shorting the lead is the same as putting the extra load on your alternator.

You can increase mileage by advancing the ignition timing, this allows more of the fuel to burn, but makes the engine hotter, and damages rings, valves etc. I would bet the increase in flame speed with more oxygen and free hydrogen in the mix is why the engine is showing increased mileage (assuming they do) with a electrolysis system. The increase in flame speed will do the same as advancing the ignition timing and most likely does the same or more damage.

Jim
 
james122964 said:
Not sure anyone is looking for a free lunch, Just a more economical one.
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One of the facts of physics is that you can't change methods of storing energy without losses. That is key to the reason why you can't use an alternator for gain. Should you be so fortunate to increase mileage by a small percentage, I am of the opinion that you could accomplish the same end by a simple tuning of the engine. It makes no sense that you can get as much out as you put in----let alone more. Any way you look at this problem, you can't get more out than you put in. Nothing is going to change that----not as we know things now.

Harold,
You hit the nail on the head with the power required to produce the gas(HHO)mix to add, it does not come from electricity the alternater is already generating and wasting, it makes the alternater generate more electricity, placing a heavier load on your engine, making you use more fuel.
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Absolutely true. Anyone that thinks an alternator is putting out unused power has no clue how they operate. If they think an alternator runs without effort, they also have no clue. I used to run a 12V alternator with an 8 horse Kohler engine. Took everything the engine produced to put out the amperage required to keep three battteries charged (in a boat).

Harold
 
hi all I've been reading with interest about this thread because I've always thought you had to use electrics to get hydrogen. i bought off ebay a kit made out of p.v.c pipe with instructions!!!!! how to get hydrogen out of aluminum cans. " home land security" run till it runs out, put in another can wait till 30 # take off .just watch out as it will rust your engine, valves and exhaust out. i thank its a great way to make gas for a torch though. :D :shock:
 
You'll pay a serious price for the hydrogen. Aluminum has value, and the required chemicals do, too. I expect this is a losing proposition.

Harold
 
I also have an Hydrogen Cell, and I have built them.(Great science project) The H gas generator is a fact, there is nothing fictional about them. Of course it takes electricity to make H-gas, but if you have excess electricity why not try it.

I think these work better on older cars(w/ no computer & Cat), I have not had much success with my 2005 Focus as I have improper non-efficient combustion burning problems (sulfur smell & no increase in MPG). There is apparently a way to get around this, I'd like to know one that works.

I have made a few Torches, it's very easy. They're great for melting & cutting metals.You think Oxygen burns hot, wait till you try one of these.! It sure would be nice if a reputable manufacturer would sell these on the market. To build one you need a one way check valve & or Fine bronze wool to occupy the space in between input & output. H-gas escapes at fast velocity, much faster than Natural gas for example, so it may not be as dangerous as one might initially think in certain respects. However, if the gas backfired into your Torch or tank it could get ugly.
 
joehast said:
I also have an Hydrogen Cell, and I have built them.(Great science project) The H gas generator is a fact, there is nothing fictional about them. Of course it takes electricity to make H-gas, but if you have excess electricity why not try it.

I think these work better on older cars(w/ no computer & Cat), I have not had much success with my 2005 Focus as I have improper non-efficient combustion burning problems (sulfur smell & no increase in MPG). There is apparently a way to get around this, I'd like to know one that works.

I have made a few Torches, it's very easy. They're great for melting & cutting metals.You think Oxygen burns hot, wait till you try one of these.! It sure would be nice if a reputable manufacturer would sell these on the market. To build one you need a one way check valve & or Fine bronze wool to occupy the space in between input & output. H-gas escapes at fast velocity, much faster than Natural gas for example, so it may not be as dangerous as one might initially think in certain respects. However, if the gas backfired into your Torch or tank it could get ugly.
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Hi,
Well, a lot can be said about, there is no manufacturer doesn't that say it all?
Oxygen does not burn it oxidizes other materials.
Your car does not have excess electricity, every bit that is generated is used, if more is needed more power is required to overcome the drag on the alternator.
If you do not believe it, try the experiment I posted a few post back.

Jim
 
My one co-worker built a functioning hydrogen fuel cell for his car. Its a huge older lincoln. A true boat! I got to talking about hydrogen fuel cells for some reason one day and he casually says "I have one in my car". I told him I had to see it.

When he popped the hood I was shocked to see how simple it was. I was expecting something from outter space with flashing lights and crazy sounds. It was two plastic containers with some kind of elecrolyte solution rigged to the battery and airflow system. He tells me that the car was getting 10 miles to the gallon and is now averaging 30 miles to the gallon :shock: He told me that he got it to work easily for his car but is having trouble getting one to work with his wifes newer car. He says its because on older cars its easier to trick the oxygen sesor and on his wife's car there are 4 sensors that are in a bad place to allow the cell to work.

Hydrogen fuel cells are definately out there and from what my coworker tells me its easy to obtain the information and materials to build one.
 
Noone has said you can not generate hydrogen, and also, if you look at a post little ways back about advancing ignition timing, flame speed, and engine damage you will find there is no free lunch.

Jim
 
Just the latest sugar pill, placebo effect. :roll:

In the seventies it was a device injecting water into your intake, harnessing the awesome power of steam! No mention of the engine damage from the steam cleaned oil free piston cylinders. :cry:

There is No free lunch, and no free energy either.

If there was any merit to this scheme, every car, on every lot, from every car maker would include one.
 
Well, there's another way to generate H-gas w/o using electricity using Red Devil Lye. No wires and no draw from your auto's electrical system.! This is a strong alkaline so be damn careful.! The thing is, It works..! Is it cost effective.? I think so, you be the Judge.
 
joehast said:
Well, there's another way to generate H-gas w/o using electricity using Red Devil Lye. No wires and no draw from your auto's electrical system.! This is a strong alkaline so be damn careful.! The thing is, It works..! Is it cost effective.? I think so, you be the Judge.
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No, it isn't cost effective, and it never will be. If you study the basic tenets of physics, you come to understand that you can not convert energy from one form to another without losses. There is no free lunch----there is no free lunch today, there was no free lunch yesterday, and there will be no free lunch tomorrow. Anything you do to extract energy will have losses--it's a matter of choosing which one offers the least in the way of losses. The hydrogen liberated by using lye, to dissolve base metals, is no different from using HCl to dissolve steel. It, too, liberates hydrogen. You pay one hell of a price for enough to do any serious work. Remember me saying there's no free lunch?

If a guy claims a car that used to get 10 mpg is using hydrogen and now getting 30 mpg---you're not being told something---what you're not being told is what the question is. I don't believe it, and I wouldn't believe it if I stood before the dude. I'd have to see it for myself.

Harold
 
Harold_V said:
joehast said:
Well, there's another way to generate H-gas w/o using electricity using Red Devil Lye. No wires and no draw from your auto's electrical system.! This is a strong alkaline so be damn careful.! The thing is, It works..! Is it cost effective.? I think so, you be the Judge.
Click to expand...
No, it isn't cost effective, and it never will be. If you study the basic tenets of physics, you come to understand that you can not convert energy from one form to another without losses. There is no free lunch----there is no free lunch today, there was no free lunch yesterday, and there will be no free lunch tomorrow. Anything you do to extract energy will have losses--it's a matter of choosing which one offers the least in the way of losses. The hydrogen liberated by using lye, to dissolve base metals, is no different from using HCl to dissolve steel. It, too, liberates hydrogen. You pay one hell of a price for enough to do any serious work. Remember me saying there's no free lunch?

If a guy claims a car that used to get 10 mpg is using hydrogen and now getting 30 mpg---you're not being told something---what you're not being told is what the question is. I don't believe it, and I wouldn't believe it if I stood before the dude. I'd have to see it for myself.

Harold
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I must agree with Harold.

Here's something a bit more practical, if you wish to experiment:

http://www.stanleymotorcarriage.com/GeneralTechnical/GeneralTechnical.htm
 
Harold and Irons,

I too didnt believe it at first but I remember my co-worker giving me a very technical explanation on how it worked and it sounded feasible. Before becoming an engineer this man was a mechanic for both motorcyles and cars for 15 years. He definately knows his way around the hood of a car and if anyone could make a cell work it would be him. I've known him for some time now and lets just say he is a very honest man. He would have no reason to lie about such a thing. Also it would be kind of silly for him to be riding around with that stuff under his hood if it didnt do something :p

Think of it this way guys. Im sure at one point solar power was thought to be impossible, and probably even laughed at. But today it is tried and true. As I alluded to in a few posts up, I firmly believe that big oil keeps many of these alternative energy technologies from coming to light. They are greedy tyrants that will do just about anything to eliminate anything that will interfere with their profits.

Anyway... for your consideration check this video out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owftWTFbQFM
 
I wonder if big car companies put the same effort and money into building and testing cars in the same race situaitions as Formula1, stock, rally, endurance and so on. would we see more of "alternate" fuel advances and car technologies on the road today?
my thoughts
 
I know this is an old thread, and not desiring to open up any old wounds about gas mileage. Is anybody using an hho device for a hydrogen torch for melting gold? If so, can you tell me your thoughts on it. I am considering buying one and would like to discuss with somebody who has used one.

Thanks,
Karl Wyant
 
Never used one, but have big plans someday to build one, they should work great for melting small amounts of gold, there have been members here on the forum showing their home made Hydrogen torches melting gold, from what I have seen these are small torches (hypodermic needles size) but high heat and clean burning if gas is scrubbed, I also am interested in learning as much as I can about making them.

On a note Harold said using aluminum would not be cost effective for generating hydrogen as aluminum is costly or something to that effect, it made me wonder how much electricity and power went into mining and making that piece of aluminum metal, and then if using it to make hydrogen how much electricity or power would it produce? I would put my money on Harold advice you don't get something from nothing, with fuel prices rising we will be seeing more and more people trying to get something from nothing.
 

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