I need a little clarification

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Silver Handle

Silver Handle

Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2011
Messages
11
Location
Fort Walton
Ok so I will try to not come of as sounding to noobish here. I have read til my eyes hurt and I think I am ready to get some shopping done,I Just need a few finer points defined.
Over the years I have hoarded my e-scrap and I am ready to start refining it. I plan to try and get the most from my scrap by separating, things like flatpacks and monolith caps. Pretty much for the first go around I am planning only chasing the silver and gold and just hoarding the caps for later.
Coming into the forum I was aware of AR. Upon reading I have discovered there are several process to refining out PM's, including AP.
So my questions are this: Is it just personal preference which process/'es are used? Are there advantages to a nitric bath followed by AP as opposed to just AR when trying to refine both silver and gold? Have I simply not read enough,or possibly overlooked this through my bloodshot eyes? Any and All help is always appreciated.

Thanks for looking
-SH
 
SH,

Welcome to the GRF. I think before you start, you should maybe post a pic of exactly what it is you want to process. You're right in dissolving the base metals first. Remember though, if you start with nitric, you're going to want to incinerate your material after using it before switching to another method other than AR. If you use nitric to dissolve the base metals, and then switch over to something like AP you're going to have problems. Even a little bit of nitric that you weren't able to wash off is going to react with the HCL. You've just involuntarily created AR. Remember, it only takes around 1mL Nitric and 4mL of HCL to dissolve 1g of gold. That's a teardrop of Nitric. More than enough to slip by and ruin your day. If this your first run, I would start with something like the gold foil fingers on RAM. I would also reread HOKE. You can't absorb that book in one pass. Check out Lazersteve's video's on fingers. Seriously, reading and seeing someone go through the steps is a huge help. It was for me. Good luck, and be safe!
 
The process used is chosen on a decision hierarchy of (not necessarily in order of importance) 1: Which chemicals are least expensive and most available 2: Which processes have superior effect & yield 3: which type of feedstock is being refined 4: which process has the best documentation and experience notes from members and HOKE.

Most folks want to use hydrochloric acid before nitric, as HCl is much cheaper. They also want to use Sulfuric acid before nitric, same reason. Users want to get rid of as much and as many junk metals as possible so that careful refining can be applied to only one or at most, two metals, and in the least quantity possible so as to conserve more valuable chemicals. When you are dissolving the fingers from PC boards, you are looking to undercut the gold plating on the fingers, really not touch the gold (chemically) at all, but to dissolve the copper and solder-type materials that underlie them. The process of dissolving those thinly-deposited (junk) metals releases the gold plate foils above them, leaving the foils as a fairly coherent item. The process of deplating gold-plated pins is different, because the acid-solvents cannot get to the interior of the pins so effectively, and the *relative* amounts of junk metal and gold are a lot different than they are on PC board fingers. At the same time, with the reverse electroplating method, advantage is taken that the pins, all jumbled on top of each other, will conduct electricity. That cannot be said about "finger trimmings" from PC boards.

Users do NOT use AR first because the general flow of things is to get rid of junk metals BEFORE dissolving gold. In other words, advantage is being taken that gold will NOT dissolve in the first things we soak our materials in. So, HCl or H2SO4 or H2SO4 + electricity are used earlier to get rid of as much crap, using the cheapest chemicals as possible. Then, the remaining gold is refined without the interference of undesired metals. AR dissolves almost everything. Silver chloride is very insoluble and also interferes with more delicate techniques, so generally we want to have HCl going first, make our chloride reactions, wash out/get rid of the reactive chlorides. For the same reason, we do not want to use tap water on silver because there is chlorine in that water. With gold, it doesn't matter.

Lastly, the process used to refine gold are quite different from those used for silver. Not only are the metals generally not found together in the same item, but the processes are different. The non-guru folks around here who go from interested students to refining success resolutely shun innovation and look to duplicate processes that have been proven successful. This isn't an inventing challenge, quite the opposite. The challenge is to carefully follow the known-to-work procedures with no wrong turns, understanding the process(es) at each step of the way, knowing what should be the result of the next thing you are contemplating and with saint-like patience and discipline. And trying out small batches before throwing your whole pile into a 5 gallon bucket of evil liquid.
 
Thanks to both of you for such a quick reply. I get it now. I was of the opinion from what I read that made me think, Hmm why not just put all of my scrap in a five gallon bucket, remove the silver with nitric, then the gold using AR process. I see now the flaw in that thought process. I will get some pictures up, when I get everything separated and categorized. I will start with the fingers to "get my feet wet" as it were as suggested.
 
If you're just getting into this, fingers are a great place to start.... AFTER you've read. You're able to see your gold throughout the process, and you can reuse the acid once you've finished. In the event that the AP (HCL & H202, 4:1)dissolves a little, not to worry. As the solution becomes saturated with copper(after a couple uses), it will displace the dissolved gold. One process can teach you a lot. Just take it slow and be safe.
One thing I wish I had done my first time around with fingers in AP, is using a bubbler. You can get a cheap $5 aquarium bubbler from walmart. When your AP is sitting, the bubbles will continue to introduce 02 to the reaction. The hydrogen peroxide is just a jump start, and won't last long. If you're able to agitate every ten minutes or so, you can have this done easily in a day. There are a crazy amount of posts on processing fingers, so do a little searching and you should be more than taken care of. There's no hurry, well I hope there isn't, so don't start until you think you know exactly how this will unfold. Consider what could go wrong. Have contingencies and "problem solve" before you jump into this. I find this brings up more questions, and helps me resolve a potential problem before it even comes up. Good luck, and be safe.
 
i just put fingers in a slow cooker on medium heat with hcl . it takes about 3 days to get the foils off. then i pour everything into a plastic spagetie strainer over a 5 gallon pail and rince with water.
 
wrecker45 said:
i just put fingers in a slow cooker on medium heat with hcl . it takes about 3 days to get the foils off. then i pour everything into a plastic spagetie strainer over a 5 gallon pail and rince with water.
Click to expand...

Be sure to put a couple of coffee filters into the spaghetti strainer first.

Tom C.
 
Hi there Silverhandle!
I just thought I'de throw something in for you . You get going and are doing your different processes and all your hard work and considerable values are there in front of you in this flask! Man, no more than two hours ago, mine broke while I was heating it, the bottom just craked and the jar tipped sideways a little, all the contents poured out...
I'm new to this but, I alway have some kind of containment devise that will catch my treasure in case of a mishap! I had perhaps 5grams of Au. in a mix of now base metal-free powder from plated pins in Hcl. powder is whats left of the plastic connectors that held the pins,It was the final wash with boiling water before it goes in with my other Au. awaiting HCl/Chlorox.
I have a month of anticipation and quite a bit of work in that jar. I can't imagine the heartbreak if I had seen it running down into the stove and on the floor! fortunatly I had it in a water bath that caught everything and as I type it is filtering in my shop! No losses!
Don't forget to give some thought to making you work area so that you don't loose values if something goes wrong. If you store a jar of AuCl, keep it in a bucket , etc... ( <----- thanks Herold, )
Good luck looking forward to seeing your first gold!
 
artart47
good post and a great recovery too. :p
Were you using a heat resistant beaker or flask when this happened?
Tom C
 
Hi!
No, I was just using real large mason l
jars for the water baths.
there was no thermal shock or anything ,It was up to almost a simmer and I just heard a pop and it turned alittle sideways!
As I get extra money I'll get lab quality stuff, but for now I gotta make due with what I have.
 
Been their, done that myself.
Luckily I haven't lost any values either.
Here is a site that has good prices on some of the starter items (glassware) I have purchased. No minimums and great service.
http://www.homesciencetools.com/

Tom C.
 
I've went through a lottt of mason jars. I have two that i'm fond of. Other than that I've had them break in almost every situation you can think of. I had one i left sitting on my counter top and left for a little while. Empty i might add, not heated, nothing. When i came back a couple of hours later and picked it up it had broken right around that bottom lip where the sides end and the bottom starts. I kid you not! Still haven't figured that one out yet. Now that i have gotten just a little more serious about things i bought some Griffin beakers and some pyroceram dishes. For the cost of 1-2 grams of gold its one of the best investments you can make. Man what a difference and a peace of mind it makes. Thank you Pyrex, thank you Corning, and god bless the Gold Refining Forum.com
 
WOW!
That's just how mine broke! right around the bottom where it curves and there is a little rise on one side. I can't understand it. I've been using Mason jars for fourty years for canning, heated them in water baths, pressure cooker, never had one crack!
It's like Murphy's law at work. If it's going to break, it'll wait till you fill it with something of extreem value.
 
Wow. thanks for all the tips guys. I ordered some equipment from home science tools, and began harvesting. I didn't have as many fingers as I thought I did. only about 50 grams. I did find a couple of nice ones that I have some questions about which direction to proceed next. First though picture of my fingers.
Silver006.jpg


I found one ram stick that had gold plated traces everywhere I found out how to remove the solder mask thanks to the forum and the search button :p
Silver007.jpg


I also found this really nice card that appears to be all gold beneath the solder mask . Traces, pads, the works. My question is, how do remove the pins, caps, etc without incinerating the board and messing up all that gold? Is hand de-soldering the only option?
Silver008.jpg


As always any and all tips appreciated and thanks for looking. :wink:

-SH
 
Silver Handle said:
Wow. thanks for all the tips guys. I ordered some equipment from home science tools, and began harvesting. I didn't have as many fingers as I thought I did. only about 50 grams. I did find a couple of nice ones that I have some questions about which direction to proceed next. First though picture of my fingers.
As always any and all tips appreciated and thanks for looking. :wink:
-SH
Click to expand...

be sure to check all sound cards and video cards.for some reason the biggest majority of these will be gold plated on all metal traces.depopulate all boards(remove the components) and remove the solder mask with caustic soda bath and then put it all in AP.
 
I've got a stack of sound blasters (already did the fingers) waiting to be processed!

Silverhandle!
I was all excited when I first came to our forum. I was all set to just pulling gold out of all the stuff I had collected. I spent a long time reading and learning about reclaiming and refining the values that are in electronics. I saw all kinds of people coming here with a bucket of disaster asking for help! You may be excited about your new interest, but, you now know enough to be dangerous!
If you watch one of Lazersteve's videos, you see how organized he is, safety precautions, He knows what he's doing and what's going on in the reaction vessel.
You need to start with simple and small batches before thinking about doing cards,lye solutions and such until you learn more and get experience actually working with the stuff! Doing the fingers from your cards in AP is a good start. Then how to clean your foils of any base metals, How to melt them....hold the button in your hand!
The quest is to learn refining! Then you can safely enjoy you new hobby of getting the gold out.
good luck!
 
Thanks again guys. I love all the new friends I am making, and the knowledge I am acquiring. I found the depopulation thread finally. Thanks to Geo. Sometimes its all about knowing the right search term to use.

Artart. Just for clarification sake: I was already dangerous before I came here! :p I have watched most of Steve's videos, most of them more than once already. BTW my acid gas respirator and splash guard goggles came in yesterday. Just so you know, I too am all about safety first.

Personally I thought stripping a solder mask with lye would be easier than dealing with acids, as I used to help my grandma make soap. Plus I figured I could add that card to my fingers. I started with the whole thing in a cookie jar, that cracked in the process from the heat. I had my safety plate in place, so no worries. I had to then transfer my solution to a smaller dish, and cut the board down in order to finish processing. It came out fairly well in my opinion.

Silver.jpg


I also discovered something in the process. After needing to remove the solution and card from the heat, and then replacing it to the heat I noticed the mask came directly off with no washing. I repeated this with the second part of the card by heating within the solution, removing from heat, then reheating, All I had to do was remove the card and rinse. no rubbing involved in removing the mask. I did rub it to make sure I had removed all the caustic though.
 
cool! happy havesting! Neat discovery, I'll try that on my next batch.
The lye solution always seems to disolve some surface gold, same as my AP for cell boards. I did some search for dropping gold from lye but didn't find anything. Did you seem to loose to the solution too?
Later!
 
Funny you should ask. the lye did lighten the color somewhat. Then I ran my harvest through AP but I see no gold. still trying to figure out what I did wrong. It looked just like Steve's video until I started to pour it through the filter. all was left is black sand. I saw in his video that might be my gold dissolved and re-precipitated back out.

I am stuck now. I have this dust mixed with some solder mask, with all of about 6 foils. I dont want to proceed to the next step with just the dust with out some advice from the gurus.

Anyone?
 

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