Is a Silver Cell even profitable

[MTNM4N]

Good morning everyone and Happy Easter.

I had a question regarding Cement Silver and was wondering if anyone knew about how much I might be able to produce from my cell. I understand that there are a bunch of different variables that will determine that, but was hoping for a ballpark idea.

The reason I ask is because as of this morning I've had to shut down my cell due to a lack of material I've got to feed the Anode basket. With it being Easter Sunday I won't be able to get out to source more materials to melt into shot to continue feeding the Anode Basket.

I'm also wondering, because I'm not even 48 hours into operation of my cell and I've got more silver invested into running it at the moment than it will probably even produce.

So in my Electrolyte Solution I've got 150g of silver per liter for a 3 liter cell. 15 Troy ounces. I started my Anode Basket full of Sterling Silver shot at 9.3 ounces on 03/29/24 at 10am by that evening I had to feed the Anode Basket another 4oz. By yesterday morning I had added another 2oz and then finally another ounce by last night. This morning I checked on the cell and it's all gone and the bar had dropped into solution and I had to shut it down until I can change out the basket with a fresh one and top it off with probably another 9oz.

Grand total as of now I'm 15oz into my solution plus 16.3oz in my Anode Basket and I'll probably have to add another 9oz to it tomorrow. Not even a full 48 hours into the run and I've got 31.3 ounces in+

My volts were running at 3.5 when I started it, but I've dropped them back down to 3.1

My amps at start were high 3.67 but have been slowly coming down. They were at 2.10 at time of shut off.

I had planned on being able to eventually be able to run my cell or at least feed the Anode Basket from cement Silver shot, but it's eating much more and faster than I anticipated and at the rate I'm going I'll have more than 30oz invested into the basket alone not including what went into electrolyte. So it's basically going to cost me more in silver to run than I'll probably produce providing it turns out 50oz.

So I'm just trying to figure out if there's a ballpark idea for how much cement Silver it'll produce after a second run using the same electrolyte? Cause as it stands now it'd almost be cheaper for me to just go buy silver then trying to run a cell given the fact that I'll be lucky to break even with what's gone into running it.

 

[MTNM4N]

Good evening, since my post from this morning went with a response I figured I'd change the title and shorten the question.

So far I'm 15 ozt into making my electrolyte solution at 150g/liter for a 3 liter Cell. I'm 16.3 ozt into feeding my Anode Basket and I had to shut it down this morning because I ran out of material to feed it. I'm 2 hours shy of it running for 48 hours. At this rate if I run it for a full 10 days I would have invested more silver into running the cell than it should produce, providing it cranks out 50 ozt.

I was planning on eventually using my Cement Silver to feed my Anode Basket, but if it doesn't produce enough material to do so then I'm back to having to invest in more silver to keep the Cell in operation.

How much Cement Silver can I potentially expect to produce?

Do I eventually reach a point to where I end up making more Silver than what I have to invest into running the cell?

Can I potentially expect to break even or am just doing this for fun and putting more silver into production than I'll actually make in the end?

Thanks in advance

 

[Yggdrasil]

Good evening, since my post from this morning went with a response I figured I'd change the title and shorten the question.

So far I'm 15 ozt into making my electrolyte solution at 150g/liter for a 3 liter Cell. I'm 16.3 ozt into feeding my Anode Basket and I had to shut it down this morning because I ran out of material to feed it. I'm 2 hours shy of it running for 48 hours. At this rate if I run it for a full 10 days I would have invested more silver into running the cell than it should produce, providing it cranks out 50 ozt.

I was planning on eventually using my Cement Silver to feed my Anode Basket, but if it doesn't produce enough material to do so then I'm back to having to invest in more silver to keep the Cell in operation.

How much Cement Silver can I potentially expect to produce?

Do I eventually reach a point to where I end up making more Silver than what I have to invest into running the cell?

Can I potentially expect to break even or am just doing this for fun and putting more silver into production than I'll actually make in the end?

Thanks in advance

I'm not a wizard in Silver cells, but you run them to purify the Silver you have, not to keep it running, right?
So when you are out of Silver to feed it you either scale down to purify what is left after round 1 or you get more to purify.

 

[FrugalRefiner]

MTNM4N, please do not double post. It is against forum rules because it makes the forum even more cluttered than it already is. I've merged your two posts together into this thread.

A silver cell is used as a final refining step to produce high purity silver. Whether that's your goal will determine if it's to your benefit to run a cell.

From your posts, it seems you're forgetting that you will eventually recover the silver you used to make your electrolyte. Consider that silver as an investment to purifying the silver you feed into your anode basket. When you've run all the silver you're going to run in your cell, then you can recover any silver left in your electrolyte by cementing it out or dropping it out as silver chloride. The silver is not lost. But it is tied up while the cell is in operation, or while you're storing the electrolyte between runs.

Dave

 

[justinhcase]

At only sixty odd pence a gram for silver, I do not consider it economical to process on its own.
The difference you will be paid between scrap sterling and refined silver is quite a small amount that is disproportional to the amount of effort the activity takes.
Unless you are processing industrial quantities, scaling up that small profit margin to a worthwhile level would be nearly impossible.
Having said that, Inquartation remains fundamentally the easiest and most productive method to use when dealing with mixed scrap gold alloys.
And if you are going to be using acid to part your 250 alloys, and silver making such a good solvent to clean your gold with you may as well do two jobs at once, so silver refinement becomes part of your waste treatment plan.
Hopefully, the stockpiled PGM blacks and compounds will eventually build up to a nice cherry on the cake, if ever you can find someone to pay you a fair price for them.

 

[MTNM4N]

I'm not a wizard in Silver cells, but you run them to purify the Silver you have, not to keep it running, right?
So when you are out of Silver to feed it you either scale down to purify what is left after round 1 or you get more to purify.

Purifying Silver is definitely part of it I believe, but I was also under the impression that you could essentially run your Cell indefinitely and ultimately create more pure Silver Crystal than the amount of Silver used to run it; ultimately creating a profit in Silver.

For example put 30 ozt in get 50 ozt out. Gaining or producing 20 ozt in profit.

 

[FrugalRefiner]

Purifying Silver is definitely part of it I believe, but I was also under the impression that you could essentially run your Cell indefinitely and ultimately create more pure Silver Crystal than the amount of Silver used to run it; ultimately creating a profit in Silver.

For example put 30 ozt in get 50 ozt out. Gaining or producing 20 ozt in profit.

??????????!!!

I don't know where you got that impression, but a silver cell doesn't "create" silver. If you put a total of 30 ounces in, you should get a total of 30 ounces back out. It's a way of refining silver, not a way of creating it.

Dave

 

[Yggdrasil]

Purifying Silver is definitely part of it I believe, but I was also under the impression that you could essentially run your Cell indefinitely and ultimately create more pure Silver Crystal than the amount of Silver used to run it; ultimately creating a profit in Silver.

For example put 30 ozt in get 50 ozt out. Gaining or producing 20 ozt in profit.

No, not possible in this Universe.

Edit to add:
It kind of happens when to stars crash, but it takes two lighter elements to fuse and create a heavier element.
But that is the only condition where heavier elements are created.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Purifying Silver is definitely part of it I believe, but I was also under the impression that you could essentially run your Cell indefinitely and ultimately create more pure Silver Crystal than the amount of Silver used to run it; ultimately creating a profit in Silver.

For example put 30 ozt in get 50 ozt out. Gaining or producing 20 ozt in profit.

Is this from a Youtube video or similar??

 

[justinhcase]

Purifying Silver is definitely part of it I believe, but I was also under the impression that you could essentially run your Cell indefinitely and ultimately create more pure Silver Crystal than the amount of Silver used to run it; ultimately creating a profit in Silver.

For example put 30 ozt in get 50 ozt out. Gaining or producing 20 ozt in profit.

You must be consulting some very old instructions.
The transmutation of base metals to noble and semi-noble metals is an industry-standard tactic to raise funds from unsuspecting investors.
But outside of Berkeley and Los Alamos Labs, the transmutation of elements is nearly impossible and never economical.

 

[Shark]

If you use, for example, 15 ounces of silver to make your electrolyte, the potential can exist to process more than 15 additional ounces of silver without using up the silver in your electrolyte. It could be possible to process two, three or more 15 ounce lots as well before fouling the electrolyte enough to need changing. Even then you still have a recoverable amount of silver in the fouled electrolyte. If processed correctly, it is possible to recover the silver, clean the contaminants from the nitric and bring back the nitric well enough to start over. If it is worth salvaging the nitric is up to the user and often based on the initial cost of the acid. Hobby scaled refiners may find it very hard to justify the costs incurred and do it very often for the learning experience. Those experience’s are where we learn to upscale when needed in order to grow. Is it worth it on a small scale? Only you can answer that based on what you have learned and where you want to be in the world of refining.

 

[justinhcase]

If you use, for example, 15 ounces of silver to make your electrolyte, the potential can exist to process more than 15 additional ounces of silver without using up the silver in your electrolyte. It could be possible to process two, three or more 15 ounce lots as well before fouling the electrolyte enough to need changing. Even then you still have a recoverable amount of silver in the fouled electrolyte. If processed correctly, it is possible to recover the silver, clean the contaminants from the nitric and bring back the nitric well enough to start over. If it is worth salvaging the nitric is up to the user and often based on the initial cost of the acid. Hobby scaled refiners may find it very hard to justify the costs incurred and do it very often for the learning experience. Those experience’s are where we learn to upscale when needed in order to grow. Is it worth it on a small scale? Only you can answer that based on what you have learned and where you want to be in the world of refining.

I use crystallization to separate silver nitrate from fouled electrolytes.
This has the advantage of concentrating all the Pd in a solution with a relatively low silver content.
You can also produce relatively pure silver nitrate from silver alloys this way as well.

 

[Yggdrasil]

If you use, for example, 15 ounces of silver to make your electrolyte, the potential can exist to process more than 15 additional ounces of silver without using up the silver in your electrolyte. It could be possible to process two, three or more 15 ounce lots as well before fouling the electrolyte enough to need changing. Even then you still have a recoverable amount of silver in the fouled electrolyte. If processed correctly, it is possible to recover the silver, clean the contaminants from the nitric and bring back the nitric well enough to start over. If it is worth salvaging the nitric is up to the user and often based on the initial cost of the acid. Hobby scaled refiners may find it very hard to justify the costs incurred and do it very often for the learning experience. Those experience’s are where we learn to upscale when needed in order to grow. Is it worth it on a small scale? Only you can answer that based on what you have learned and where you want to be in the world of refining.

You still do not get more Silver out of the process than you put in.

 

[kurtak]

but I was also under the impression that you could essentially run your Cell indefinitely

You are under the wrong impression - you can not run the cell indefinitely - at least not with the same electrolyte you make up to start with for running your cell

Why?

Because over the course of time in running your cell 2 things happen ------------

1) the dissolved silver ions in the electrolyte start to become depleted (become less) & that is because

2) silver ions start to be replaced with other metal ions (copper in particular) as other metal ions get dissolved from the anode during the running of the cell thereby "corrupting" the electrolyte with those other metal ions

I say "other" metal ions (that corrupt your electrolyte) because "any" metals that are in your anodes - that will dissolve with nitric acid - do so - over the course of time of running the cell - & the result of that is that over the course of time of the cell running - silver ions in the electrolyte are being displaced from the electrolyte & depositing on the cathode are pure silver metal - BUT - at the same - because those silver ions are being displaced from the electrolyte & being deposited on the cathode as pure silver this displacement of the silver from the electrolyte is also "freeing up" a small amount of nitric acid

That small amount of free nitric then starts going to work at dissolving not just silver in your impure silver anodes but also goes to work at dissolving any other metals - that are nitric soluble in the impure anodes --- thereby slowly but surely reducing the amount of silver ions in your electrolyte & replace them with other metal ions in the electrolyte that are being dissolved from the impure anodes

In other words - slowly but surely - as the cell runs - the electrolyte is being corrupted by these other metal ions

In part - the reason that the cell deposits pure silver at the cathode is because at the beginning of running the cell you have made an electrolyte that is LOADED with silver ions so the cell has no real choice but to deposit pure silver at the cathode as the silver ions are being displace from the electrolyte by the current running through the cell - & it will continue to do so as long as the silver ions in the electrolyte remain HIGHER then other metal ions in the electrolyte - BUT - once other metal ions corrupt the electrolyte to a point where it upsets the balance between silver ions & other metal ions in the electrolyte the cell will start "co-depositing" those other metals along with the silver at the cathode

So there comes a point in running the cell that you need to stop running the cell - get rid of the corrupted electrolyte - replace it with new "silver electrolyte" to prevent depositing other metal along with your silver at the cathode

In other words - NO - you can not just make up a silver electrolyte & then run the cell indefinitely with that electrolyte --- there comes a point you have to change out the corrupted electrolyte with new electrolyte in order to prevent co-depositing of impure silver at the cathode

Just how long you can run the cell before needing to change out the electrolyte depends on how much "other" nitric soluble metals are in the impure anodes

Kurt

 

[Shark]

You still do not get more Silver out of the process than you put in.

No, you do not. I was thinking in a way that maybe he worded his question wrong and may have meant it to be more like processing more silver than what was used to make up the electrolyte with. The question, as ask, was so far off I think (hope) he just worded the question wrong.

 

[Yggdrasil]

No, you do not. I was thinking in a way that maybe he worded his question wrong and may have meant it to be more like processing more silver than what was used to make up the electrolyte with. The question, as ask, was so far off I think (hope) he just worded the question wrong.

Yes maybe I read it wrong.

 

[Martijn]

I think his worry is that his cell consumes more silver than harvested. That may be because he started with a150 gram per liter electrolyte, possibly with some free nitric and the concentration of silver is now higher.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Still waiting for him to reply.
So until then we can't say much.

 

[cejohnsonsr1]

At every step of the refining process you’re going to have less of the finished product than the feedstock you started with. The whole point of refining is to remove anything that isn’t the target product (silver, gold, PGMs). Your silver cell is just the final step in the refining process, which is a continuous cycle that requires continuous input. You should watch Sreetips on YouTube. Over the past two years he has produced several videos and series on the construction and operation of a silver cell, to include all phases of refining and waste treatment.

 

[anachronism]

Purifying Silver is definitely part of it I believe, but I was also under the impression that you could essentially run your Cell indefinitely and ultimately create more pure Silver Crystal than the amount of Silver used to run it; ultimately creating a profit in Silver.

For example put 30 ozt in get 50 ozt out. Gaining or producing 20 ozt in profit.

Well played mate. People didn't check the date haha.