guncotton?
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Bullion.Forum
Non-Chemical Keeping the Genie in the bottle. (controling the BFRC)
- Thread starter qst42know
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viacin
Well-known member
aah yes, the spout. Good advice. Ty for the specs. I don't know how popular this technique is, but it sounds absoutly wonderful. Less BFRC, and more nitric. Which means less worries from the neighbours, and less time spent on production. That is two of my biggest brids solved with one stone. This should be in a book, really.
Frozen marbles above a exothermic solution? You have no problem with cracking or breakage?
but about the cotton....
"Nitrocellulose (also: cellulose nitrate, flash paper) is a highly flammable compound formed by nitrating cellulose through exposure to nitric acid or another powerful nitrating agent. When used as a propellant or low-order explosive, it is also known as guncotton. Henri Braconnot discovered in 1832 that nitric acid, when combined with starch or wood fibers [cotton], would produce a lightweight combustible explosive material"
From what I gather, it takes a good soak in nitric acid and sulfuric acid to make true guncotton. But I wouldn't toss the cotton near a flame after I'm done either.
Frozen marbles above a exothermic solution? You have no problem with cracking or breakage?
but about the cotton....
"Nitrocellulose (also: cellulose nitrate, flash paper) is a highly flammable compound formed by nitrating cellulose through exposure to nitric acid or another powerful nitrating agent. When used as a propellant or low-order explosive, it is also known as guncotton. Henri Braconnot discovered in 1832 that nitric acid, when combined with starch or wood fibers [cotton], would produce a lightweight combustible explosive material"
From what I gather, it takes a good soak in nitric acid and sulfuric acid to make true guncotton. But I wouldn't toss the cotton near a flame after I'm done either.
qst42know
Well-known member
I have used cotton balls in my test tube trials. Keeps the bugs out and the vapors slight. I never considered they may have had pyrotechnic secondary uses. :wink: I'll have to give that a try. I think you are right about the sulfuric. Carbon, sulfur, and nitrate, would be gun powder after all.
"Frozen marbles above a exothermic solution? You have no problem with cracking or breakage?"
The marbles don't touch the solution just vapors. So I don't believe they will be under much thermal stress. Your reaction will foam up by itself as the heat builds. Don't overfill your beaker, start small till you get a better idea of what to expect. Surprises aren't welcome when dealing with acids.
"Frozen marbles above a exothermic solution? You have no problem with cracking or breakage?"
The marbles don't touch the solution just vapors. So I don't believe they will be under much thermal stress. Your reaction will foam up by itself as the heat builds. Don't overfill your beaker, start small till you get a better idea of what to expect. Surprises aren't welcome when dealing with acids.
Good got ya learnin and reading, the knowledge will be useful,in doing and not doin things.
viacin
Well-known member
qst42know said:
So true. I'm 99% ready, but the strainer I have procured to place my coffee filters in does not fit the container it's going in very well, it's oval and the container is round. Now I learned in kindergarten that this doesn't turn out well, and one wrong move could send a filter full of acid spilling everywhere. I really wanted to get this rolling today, but my time may be better spent shopping for a new strainer. Better Safe Than Sorry
I'm going to look at some other options, see if I can use my funnel. It doesn't fit the filters though, too small. Technical problems at the last minute, as always. :roll:
qst42know
Well-known member
As near as I can tell you will be the second person to use a marble condenser.
If you want to see what you will be avoiding, carefully lift the condenser a bit when your reaction is working strong. The dense red fumes form immediately.
The use of Lab Glass condensers have been around for a very long time. The biggest drawbacks to using these I saw was all your materials must fit through the narrow neck joint of a boiling flask or you had to invest in an expensive wide mouth glass reactor. And they require a source of flowing chilled water.
Hopefully more will adopt the technique as it is a safer, cheaper, more responsible way to use nitric or AR.
If you want to see what you will be avoiding, carefully lift the condenser a bit when your reaction is working strong. The dense red fumes form immediately.
The use of Lab Glass condensers have been around for a very long time. The biggest drawbacks to using these I saw was all your materials must fit through the narrow neck joint of a boiling flask or you had to invest in an expensive wide mouth glass reactor. And they require a source of flowing chilled water.
Hopefully more will adopt the technique as it is a safer, cheaper, more responsible way to use nitric or AR.
viacin
Well-known member
Oz said:
Great advice Oz, ty. I was aiming for a plastic seive like in lazersteves videos, but amazingly found my local stores severly lacking. I sent my wife on a shopping exedition and instructed her as to what I required. Unfortunantly either my instructions or her ears are not working. I have learned not to argue which.
The oval-shaped contraption she brought back just falls over when sat on the beakers. I COULD make it work, but the holes are layed out as such that just one wrong move could send acid dripping out. I have decided to wait untill a better container can be found. Your coffee pot basket is my first item of choice. I wish I had just knew about buchner funnels before I began buying everything. That's why I believe we need a good equiptment list.
Why we are on the subject, I found one I like. It has a nylon mesh screen. Is nylon and PP safe to use with nitric acid and, later on, AR?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ONE-1-NYLON-MESH-PERMANENT-BASKET-COFFEE-FILTER_W0QQitemZ360096857509QQihZ023QQcategoryZ20671QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I would stay away from nylon screen. What you are looking at is an insert to use instead of paper filters in a coffee maker. I was talking about the part of a coffee pot that you put your paper filters in. they usually have ridges to hold the filter out so the sides as well as the bottom can filter. You can find old coffee pot being thrown away at curbside or for a few dollars at a Goodwill Store.
viacin
Well-known member
aah, like the image below. That was what I first looked for, but became side tracked with glass funnels. Ty Oz, will try again.
[img:300:300]http://i2.ebayimg.com/04/i/001/12/9f/3f5d_1.JPG[/img]
[img:300:300]http://i2.ebayimg.com/04/i/001/12/9f/3f5d_1.JPG[/img]
qst42know
Well-known member
A new funnel from the auto parts store in polypropylene can serve pretty well. For about $1.50. Follow Hokes paper folding tips and adjusting to fit the angle of the funnel.
viacin
Well-known member
qst42know said:
Been there, tried that, the funnel bottom hits the bottom of the beaker. I wanted something more "formal" anyway, but now I'm back down the same old road. I could just cut the funnel's tube off to get by.
It looks like I'm going to have to wait for marbles in the mail. I was forced to order them online. I really do not know what is wrong with the stores around here. Aparently they don't think restocking is good business practice. Come on, how can wal-mart be out of marbles! They obviously do not care for the homemade refining equiptment connaisseur. It really makes me mad when you go to town with a whole page of things to buy and only find three items.
That picture is exactly what I was talking about, you can see how it will rest on or in the mouth of a beaker depending on size. As to the funnels, I don’t care for them unless they are made for filtering with ridges on the sides as only the portion at the hole in the bottom can filter efficiently.
qst42know
Well-known member
:lol: Same thing here. I'd bet I had stoped at 7 different stores. I finally found marbles at a fabric/craft store.
Pawnbroker Bob
Active member
I use an absorption train to keep my gasses in check. It works really well.
It consists of four equal sized ElM flasks. They are all stoppered with 2 hole stoppers. 3 stoppers have a short glass tube that goes no deeper than the neck of the flask and a long tube that goes to almost the bottom of the flask. The remaining stopper has a short tube and a thermometer or plug the thermometer hole if you don't need it.
Flask 1 contains the AR and gold heated on a warmer. It also contains the stopper with the short tube and optional thermometer.
Flask 2 i empty
Flask 3 and 4 contain distilled water and several ounces of sodium hydroxide. (lye)
You want to have no more fluid in 3 and 4 than you have of AR in flask #1. ie: Flasks 1 - 3 - 4 600ml each flask 2 is empty.
THE IMPORTANT PART!!!! FOLLOW THIS CAREFULLY!!! The orientation and connetion of the tubes is critical!!!
You are dealing with a closed system... the idea is that the gasses given off by flask #1 flows into empty #2 Then bubbles into the lye soultions in 3 & 4 neutralizing the gases. As #1 flask cools a vacuum is created and will suck the solutions from 3 into 2 and 4 into 3. If the stoppers and tubing are not placed properly the solution will get sucked into flask #1 and ruin everything. and or shooting out of flask #4. My reference in numbering is working from left to right.
OK connecting tubing to stoppers: From the SHORT glass tube from flask #1 connect with hose to the SHORT on flask #2. From LONG #2 to LONG #3, from SHORT #3 to LONG #4. SHORT on #4 ventd to air. To simplify... left to right... SHORT to SHORT, LONG to LONG, SHORT to LONG, SHORT vents to air.
If you diagram this out you will get the idea. Gas flows left to right and upon cooling solutions flow right to left filling empty flask #2 and emptying #4. The short tube in # 2 keeps solution from flowing into #1 as #2 fills.
After cooling swirl #2 flask to absorb the remaining gas into the lye solution. There will still be gas in flask #1. Remove the stopper and quickly replace with a sold one. If you have not completely boiled down your AR you can swirl #1 around and the gases will dissipate or remove to outside or a fume hood, remove the stopper and vent. You will find that you will have very little gas to deal with.
Pawnbroker Bob
It consists of four equal sized ElM flasks. They are all stoppered with 2 hole stoppers. 3 stoppers have a short glass tube that goes no deeper than the neck of the flask and a long tube that goes to almost the bottom of the flask. The remaining stopper has a short tube and a thermometer or plug the thermometer hole if you don't need it.
Flask 1 contains the AR and gold heated on a warmer. It also contains the stopper with the short tube and optional thermometer.
Flask 2 i empty
Flask 3 and 4 contain distilled water and several ounces of sodium hydroxide. (lye)
You want to have no more fluid in 3 and 4 than you have of AR in flask #1. ie: Flasks 1 - 3 - 4 600ml each flask 2 is empty.
THE IMPORTANT PART!!!! FOLLOW THIS CAREFULLY!!! The orientation and connetion of the tubes is critical!!!
You are dealing with a closed system... the idea is that the gasses given off by flask #1 flows into empty #2 Then bubbles into the lye soultions in 3 & 4 neutralizing the gases. As #1 flask cools a vacuum is created and will suck the solutions from 3 into 2 and 4 into 3. If the stoppers and tubing are not placed properly the solution will get sucked into flask #1 and ruin everything. and or shooting out of flask #4. My reference in numbering is working from left to right.
OK connecting tubing to stoppers: From the SHORT glass tube from flask #1 connect with hose to the SHORT on flask #2. From LONG #2 to LONG #3, from SHORT #3 to LONG #4. SHORT on #4 ventd to air. To simplify... left to right... SHORT to SHORT, LONG to LONG, SHORT to LONG, SHORT vents to air.
If you diagram this out you will get the idea. Gas flows left to right and upon cooling solutions flow right to left filling empty flask #2 and emptying #4. The short tube in # 2 keeps solution from flowing into #1 as #2 fills.
After cooling swirl #2 flask to absorb the remaining gas into the lye solution. There will still be gas in flask #1. Remove the stopper and quickly replace with a sold one. If you have not completely boiled down your AR you can swirl #1 around and the gases will dissipate or remove to outside or a fume hood, remove the stopper and vent. You will find that you will have very little gas to deal with.
Pawnbroker Bob
qst42know
Well-known member
Your system is environmentally responsible neutralizing the acidic fumes in lye. And I congratulate you for reducing the air pollution as a result of your refining.
An improvement to your process would be to add a condenser vertically above your #1 reaction vessel so that the condensate is returned to the reaction to continue working. Reducing the acid required and the volume of liquid wastes.
Your number 2 empty flask collects some condensation till it warms correct? This would have acidic values that could perform more work for you.
Whatever remaining fumes that pass through the condenser could then be bubbled through the lye solution. A system like this could be near 100% fume free.
An improvement to your process would be to add a condenser vertically above your #1 reaction vessel so that the condensate is returned to the reaction to continue working. Reducing the acid required and the volume of liquid wastes.
Your number 2 empty flask collects some condensation till it warms correct? This would have acidic values that could perform more work for you.
Whatever remaining fumes that pass through the condenser could then be bubbled through the lye solution. A system like this could be near 100% fume free.
'Atta boy Bob!!
I'm most impressed by the responsibility that some of us here on the board have. This is going above and beyond the call of duty for a small time operation. My commendations.
We need a hats off to you smiley icon.
I'm most impressed by the responsibility that some of us here on the board have. This is going above and beyond the call of duty for a small time operation. My commendations.
We need a hats off to you smiley icon.
Pawnbroker Bob
Active member
Thank you all for the kudos! 
I have thought about a condenser and it would save some nitric. And yes there is condensation in flask #2. Of course all this is neutralized as the lye solution flows in reverse.
I should add another important note about the lye. When added to the water ithe soultion is going to heat up. Wait until the lye solutions cool down before putting in the stoppers or you may have fluids running all over the place.
The system may sound complicated but it is actually very simple and easy once set up. You can use the lye solutions a few times before discarding. I rotate in a fresh flask of lye now and then at #4 moving the used #4 solution to #3. This way I get a litle more life out of them.
I'm not much of an artist but perhaps I will sketch out what this is supposed to look like and post it.
I'm sure something like this could be adapted to several 5 gal buckets. With no direct heat using a bucket, very little vacuum is created. Perhaps the AR bucket could vent bubble into 2 others holding lye soultions? Heck put a vent fan on the last lye bucket and a small hole in the AR lid. You could draw all the gases and air throug the solutions.
PB
"Doing my best for the environment and everyones health!""
I have thought about a condenser and it would save some nitric. And yes there is condensation in flask #2. Of course all this is neutralized as the lye solution flows in reverse.
I should add another important note about the lye. When added to the water ithe soultion is going to heat up. Wait until the lye solutions cool down before putting in the stoppers or you may have fluids running all over the place.
The system may sound complicated but it is actually very simple and easy once set up. You can use the lye solutions a few times before discarding. I rotate in a fresh flask of lye now and then at #4 moving the used #4 solution to #3. This way I get a litle more life out of them.
I'm not much of an artist but perhaps I will sketch out what this is supposed to look like and post it.
I'm sure something like this could be adapted to several 5 gal buckets. With no direct heat using a bucket, very little vacuum is created. Perhaps the AR bucket could vent bubble into 2 others holding lye soultions? Heck put a vent fan on the last lye bucket and a small hole in the AR lid. You could draw all the gases and air throug the solutions.
PB
"Doing my best for the environment and everyones health!""
A
Anonymous
Guest
Having drawn out what you have described PB, you are correct in saying it sounds complicated but is really very simple.
My question here is, rather than discarding the lye solution containing the dissolved and neutralised Noxx fumes, would it be possible to dissolve the Noxx fumes in distilled water and then distill this solution to produce new Nitric acid?
My question here is, rather than discarding the lye solution containing the dissolved and neutralised Noxx fumes, would it be possible to dissolve the Noxx fumes in distilled water and then distill this solution to produce new Nitric acid?
Pawnbroker Bob
Active member
Hi Marty,
I am no chemist just have some experience. My goal with this set up is to create a high purity of gold and not kill myself, my animals or my neighbors. Reclaiming chems is of no use to me. That being said Noxx bubbled through water will create nitric acid as to purity and strength who knows. You also have chlorine gas being released which bubbled through water creates hydrochloric acid. With both of these compounds with air, heat, and other contams who knpws what kind of strange AR soup will be created in the water. I guess evaporating/distilling this down may produce some type of HCL and HNO3 mixture of unknown concentrations.
For my purposes fresh AR chems are the only way to go.
PB
I am no chemist just have some experience. My goal with this set up is to create a high purity of gold and not kill myself, my animals or my neighbors. Reclaiming chems is of no use to me. That being said Noxx bubbled through water will create nitric acid as to purity and strength who knows. You also have chlorine gas being released which bubbled through water creates hydrochloric acid. With both of these compounds with air, heat, and other contams who knpws what kind of strange AR soup will be created in the water. I guess evaporating/distilling this down may produce some type of HCL and HNO3 mixture of unknown concentrations.
For my purposes fresh AR chems are the only way to go.
PB
