lead chloride?

[bmgold]

I have some questions and thoughts in need of some knowledgeable confirmations. In an assaying flux, one important ingredient is litharge or lead oxide. Could lead chloride be used in place of lead oxide? Would it reduce back to lead metal in the reductive conditions produced in the assay?

Also, would using a lead electrode as the anode or + side and lead/stainless/other cathode in a salt water solution produce this lead chloride as an insoluble precipitant?

One more. Is there an easy way to separate solder into pure or purer lead like using sulfuric acid or something else to dissolve the tin and leave the lead or maybe the above mentioned salt water electrolysis would leave the ?tin chloride? Dissolved in the solution and only lead and possibly silver if any in the precipitant?

These are just some thoughts I had from my notes and haven't been tested but if anyone attempts this, remember that you are dealing with toxic substances so take all precautions needed and for sure don't dump this stuff into the environment as it is surely more toxic than lead metal.

 

[qst42know]

Litharge is important for scavenging PMs from ore powders because it can be mixed in close contact with the fine particle PMs dragging them to the bottom to collect together. The first part of an ore assay would include in the flux a source of carbon such as flour or coal dust to reduce the litharge to metallic lead. Litharge prefers to combine with base metals to give up it's oxygen. Base metal oxides are absorbed by the slag or the cupel.

I would avoid lead chloride as it may allow your cupel or slag to absorb PMs.

If your material is metallic solids already such as jewelery scraps etc. pure lead becomes litharge during the assay to be absorbed by the cupel or vapor off.

 

[bmgold]

I hadn't considered loses to the slag because of the chloride but if it did reduce back to lead metal I wouldn't think there should be loses in the cupel unless some part of the chloride made it into the lead/pm mixture.

Another question I thought of is: If the electrolysis of solder did drop the lead and keep the tin in the solution, how would you get the tin out of the solution. A small amount of salt probably wouldn't hurt the environment much since we dump it all over the roads and sidewalks all winter anyway but tin (?chloride?) could be a different story. Playing with chemicals is fun but what do you do with them when the fun is over?

 

[qst42know]

I know litharge and pure lead can be used for assaying.

I have never heard of lead chloride used in their place. The actual chemistry of the substitution you propose is beyond what I can help you with.

 

[Lou]

No.

Litharge is cheap and easily accessible. PbCl2 won't cut the mustard at all. Go to legend mining out of Reno, NV. They have what you need.

Lou

 

[butcher]

I would suspect the PbCl would make your gold go up in smoke(or slag) and the lead will not convert properly, if at all, to elemental metal.
lead oxide is used and a carbon to make carbon dioxide(smoke) from the oxide (oxygen) in the lead.
just as metal chlorides (metal salts) if melted can up in smoke, but oxides of the same metals melted with carbon (flour, straw,ect)for example will melt to metals and give off carbon dioxide gas.
tin is very soluble in Hcl(disolves easily). lead will not as it oxidizes and protects itself, but will if Oxidizer or electricity used, lead is not hardly soluble as chloride salt(soluble in strong acid) insoluble in cold water, slightly soluble in very hot water.
study solubility rules.

 

[bmgold]

O.K. I'll give up on this lead chloride idea. Thanks for the responses. I know actionmining.com in Sandy, Oregon sells litharge but don't remember the price or if it can be shipped without hazardous fees, I hoped there might be an easy way to make a homemade substitute but it looks like the answer is no.

I couldn't find legend mining on the web. Do they have a website? I'm happy with action mining as a source of supplies but it wouldn't hurt to have another source to compair prices and shipping costs.

Thanks everyone. This forum is a good source of help and information. I can't imagine trying to refine gold without it.

 

[butcher]

litharge can be made at home but not sure if worth the trouble.

 

[Platdigger]

I have several unopenned (except for one) 12 kilo tubs of J.T. Baker reagent grade, lead oxide (litharge) powder.

I just weighed the one I have been using from, it still weighs over 22 pounds, and I have given some away besides.

The tubs say Baker Analyzed A. C. S. Reagent
Randy

 

[bmgold]

I'm looking at my action mining catalog now and litharge is $22 a pound or 3 pounds for $43 or $7 a pound for 100 pound bulk rate.

These prices don't include shipping charges. I don't know what others consider cheap but that sounds expensive to me.

I still haven't found a web page for legend mining in Nevada and haven't checked prices anywhere but action mining. Maybe I have paid too much for everything else I have ordered. SMB. $8.90/# or $33.23 for 8#

Are these normal prices or should I be looking for other sources? This might help to explain my dreaming of homemade substitutes for chemicals.

 

[qst42know]

Yes you paid too much for SMB.

http://www.undergrounddigital.com/beeradditives.htm

What type of material are you assaying?

Reasonably pure lead can be had at your local fishing tackle shop for molding sinkers. Or at a gun shop for casting bullets. It has been a while since I bought any but, $1.50 for 1 pound ingots should be pretty close.

 

[viacin]

ty for the link qst.

 

[bmgold]

Wow!!! I did pay way to much.

I have been torch assaying crushed rocks from various places that I have collected or have been given. I mostly don't get real precise with my measuring, just looking for that tiny flash when there is a little pm's present. There isn't much quartz around my area but some bits can be found in sandstone conglomerates. None of my tests of local rocks have produced yellow colored beads but I think there may be a tiny bit of silver in them. Not enough to be worth the effort to crush and extract it unless I can prove to myself that there is gold or pgm's included. Mainly just trying to treat the gold fever.

Electronic scrap or other stuff is probably my best bet in this area but if I don't at least check the local rocks then I can never be sure.

I bookmarked the brewing site and will check it out and probably order 10# of SMB. That should last me a while.


Update 11/6/2008: I went to order the SMB from the brewing site but changed my mind since the shipping almost doubled the cost. Even with the shipping costs it is still cheaper than the stuff I bought (per pound) but since I only used a couple spoons or so of my expensive pound so far, I'll wait until I'm sure I need more before ordering but will keep this company in mind when the need is there. I have ordered lazersteve's videos and have put the processing on hold until I get a chance to SEE the processes before experimenting more on my own.

 

[butcher]

yes electronic stuff is better than processing a ton of rock(easier and cheaper for the small miner) somebody else already extracted it and concentrated it, but you probably can make more money cutting fire wood, or working by the hour at mcdonalds flippin burgers, but not as interesting or educational or, as fun.

 

[bmgold]

I know there are easier ways to make more money than prospecting for gold and probably easier ways than refining gold from scrap but I have often said, describing prospecting for gold, "You couldn't pay me enough to work that hard...But, if I get the chance, I'd do it again"

Just as you can't convince someone without the fever that this sort of thing is fun even if you only get a few specks of gold, you would have a hard time convincing someone that DOES have gold fever that it is a bad idea.

I'm not in it for the money, but if the money happens to show up then I sure won't turn it away!

 

[butcher]

bmgold so true I can spend all day wet in ice cold water panning for a few small pickers and some yellow flakes, come home frozen, not being able to walk the next day.and I love that kind of fun. but glad thats not my living, besides starving(being too busy panning to hunt),would only be able to pay me those kinda wages if I was starving, It's a great hobby but I'll keep my day job for now.

 

[bmgold]

I found the legend mining web site:

It is- lmine.com

Their price for litharge was cheaper per pound but it looks like 10 pounds was minimum quantity sold.

Unless I find a good supply of high quality gold ore, I could just buy my gold already refined for less work and cost. Not as much fun but not as dangerous either.

What was that poem about not wanting the gold but just finding it?