Just to let you know, I was only recently invited to chime in on this thread. Without that invitation, I wouldn’t have known it was here.
Disclaimer: For what it’s worth, what follows is partly my opinion and partly facts. Please try to use your best judgement on which is which.
Utter: In this context, it means “to issue”. As with a statement, when you utter a counterfeit coin, you issue it. The meaning has little to nothing to do with describing something, whether vocally or in print media. This may seem strange today, but it was accepted when the Coinage Act of 1792 was ratified.
Coin: A (usually metallic) unit of commerce that is legally authorized by a government. If it isn’t authorized by a government, then it is probably a “token”. Note that laws enacted by governments can authorize coins to be produced by private mints (for example, the coins of Panama that were produced by the Franklin Mint).
Legal Tender: There is a lot of confusion about this. “Tender” means “to offer”. “Legal Tender” means that it is allowed within the law to offer it as payment. I believe that there is no corresponding law that requires acceptance of that which is offered in payment (although that may be changing). The IRS may be required to accept Legal Tender in payment of taxes. Merchants accept “Legal Tender” because it is customary. Some Merchants refuse some sorts of Legal Tender (“No bills larger than a $20 accepted here”, etc.) and some Merchants accept various alternative currencies besides Legal Tender (Credit Cards, Debit Cards, SNAP, checks, etc.).
The “Executive order 6102 of April 5th 1933” is no longer in effect, it was repealed by Public Law 93-373, which went into effect on December 31, 1974.
“I would guess that many refiner's and Forum members have thought about useing metal for barter, but whatever you do, don't put "Dollar" "In God We Trust" or a dollar value on your coin, or you could end up where Bernard Van Nauthouse [sic] is, his trial took 2 weeks, the jury took a few hours to convict him, and he's been waiting 21 months to be sentenced, he's looking at 20-40 years for counterfeiting, (pure bullion) I might add that the expert witnesses from the FBI and the DOJ knew nothing about PM's at least from the court transcripts that I read. Go's to show what can happen to you if you tick off the wrong people!”
When I met with Bernard Von NotHaus, I asked him specifically if his “Liberty Dollars” were “tokens” (it was obvious to me that they were not “coins”, but I was unsure of what they were). He replied that technically, they were “medallions”. I believe that the distinction has to do with the obverse-to-revers die orientation. I suggested that instead of “Dollars”, he should denominate them in “Ounces”, “Half Ounces”, “Quarter Ounces” and “Eighth Ounces”. I am convinced that Von NotHaus’ conviction was largely due to the ignorance of the Jury.
“You can print up your own ‘money’ for bartering. It can have no relations to the United States though. Many people will sell their ‘dollars’, at a fairly comparable price, if not par value. Our town thought about a having their own local currency. They first would first have to start a ‘bank’. The currency would be operated on a barter system amongst vendors. The town currency could be redeemed at the Bank at any time, for full face value of a US dollar. Totally legal. I also have thought about minting gold coins [sic] for intrinsic, as well as monetary exchange. As long as you don't put a ‘dollar’ number to it, as well as any connection to the US, or any other country, you will be fine. It should include the fineness and weight, mainly to simplify the transactions. It is then easy to barter. Also not having a dollar amount would allow for the increase or decrease of values. The market would dictate the value.”
This is almost right. I don’t think that you call them “dollars”, but you can call them other things and establish exchange rates that relate to dollars. “Cascadia Hours” come immediately to mind. Specifying the metallic content and the weight seems like a good idea to me, if you are producing bullion rounds or tokens.
“Now minting coins is a monopoly in most countries. But i see no ban on producing units of specific weight and stamped with a personal logo + weight. What would the cheapest and simplest way be to produce such units in silver.? Lets say 1 g, 5g, 10g, 50g and 100g units in order to get a handy system for barter.
What metric system would be most effective handling wise?”
“Personal Logo” is moot. Trademarked logos could work and hallmarks could work. Ideally, those marks would be something difficult to counterfeit.
“…cheapest and simplest way…to produce…” is a tough nut to crack. Anything cheap and simple to produce will be cheap and simple to counterfeit. OTOH, it should be cost effective to produce them, or else production will bankrupt the issuers.
“18 U.S. Code § 486 - Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal
‘Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.’”
Kurtak’s reply is almost right. It’s worth paying attention to what he has to say.
So a token used for barter needs to not be confused with “money”. IIRC, this is exactly why some silver rounds are labeled as “Silver Trade Units”. I’d make sure to include something similar, if I were to produce units for barter.
In this case “utter” means “to issue” and “passes” means “attempts to use them as US coins”.
“Coin(age) = coins differ from bullion in that they’re government-issued, have a face value, are legal tender, and are guaranteed by the country of issuance.”
There is an additional criterion: “Coins” have to be authorized by law. Putting a face value on something doesn’t make it a “coin”, it’s the law behind it that makes it a coin. As an example, Tokens that are used in commerce can be denominated in dollars (i.e. “Goof For $1 In Trade”), but that doesn’t make them “coins”.
“Food for thought. If I was to mint some coins, of a design that didn't infringe on design or other patent, could I say, in this case, ‘Goldshark dollars’, and not commit fraud against the guvmint? They would definitely not say US dollars. Why not mint some that say ‘net value, 50 bones, bucks, smackers, moolas, etc.?”
It is my understanding that designs cannot be “patented”; I suspect that you were referring to “trademark”. Last time I checked, a “patent” required the submission of a working model before it could be granted.
I don’t think it would be a good idea to impart any sort of value to this kind of issuance. I’m reminded of the tax protester in southern California back in the 70’s that printed up a bunch of “Banana Notes”. He was trying to get across the idea that a note for something isn’t the same as that thing (i.e. a Federal Reserve Note isn’t the same as a Dollar). The Banana Notes had some text on them that indicated a note for something isn’t the same as that thing, and if you think otherwise, try to eat this Banana Note.
Seems to me it would be better to stick to the facts: metallic content and actual weight.
“Per the bold print - the word dollar in & of it's self is a reference to the U. S. monetary system (as well as other countries) - therefore the word dollar(s) it's self "utters" a face value of a coin representing the U. S. monetray [sic] system --- in other words - dollar - expresses the value that U. S. money is coined on - which again ONLY the U.S. congress has the authority to do”
Kurt, with as much as you’ve gotten right so far, I think you missed with the meaning of ”utter”. I think you got the later part right: It’s the Congress that has the authority, because they make the laws that create the coins. Placing a face value on a coin isn’t what “utters” a coin, it’s that law that “utters” the coin – and specifies the face value for it.
“Would it be OK if you say " In Cod We Trust", with a picture of a fish in lieu of an eagle?”
I don’t think I’d risk it. Bernard Von NotHaus used the phrase “Trust In God” instead of the phrase “In God We Trust”, but that wasn’t enough to make a distinction to the Jurors in his trial. Personally, I like the pun (but I wouldn’t risk the counterfeiting conviction – heck, I wouldn’t even want to go to trial over it; court seems to be a waste of time).
“Which leads to the next question, how long does a patent run on US coin design?”
I don’t think that there is a patent issue here, and there is no applicable time limit. If I remember correctly, the US government is not allowed to register Trademarks, Patents or Copyrights in its own interest. Coin designs are protected in other ways (such as with anti-counterfeiting laws).
“This is a form of emergency money issued in several places in Portugal after WW1. This one was issued by the city of Aveiro.
Now, these bills were actually issued illegally. There were only two authorized issuers: our mint and the Santa Casa da Misericórdia. But we were in such a bind, that municipalities were able to issue their own notgeld and get away with it.”
Notgeld was issued in much of Europe after WWI because there was a tremendous shortage of coins. Municipalities resorted to Notgeld in desperation in order to try an get commerce moving again. Very few of the issues were worth anything outside of the town they were issued in.
“I think (and trust me, I don't know) that fine silver and fine gold are ingot cast and then rolled to a extremely precise thickness and then die cut to an extremely precise size to get the very nearly exact weight. That's how I'd do it, after giving it quite a bit of thought, and then die-striking the rounds.”
Debbie, you’ve got it in a nutshell. Swap in the correct alloys for “fine silver” and “fine gold”, add in a burnishing step, some cleaning steps, and a step that upsets the edges of the coin blanks and you’re pretty-much there.
“As to determination of content, specific gravity is the easiest and one of the best ways to determine metal content of sterling and fine silver and the various gold alloys (with the exception of tungsten for gold). It's easy for people to understand and a lot less messy than all those acids and touchstones.”
It is my understanding that ultrasonic scanning can detect a tungsten core that’s covered in real gold, even if an impedance test can’t detect it.
“1st of all, you’re not going to make coins no matter what method you use. Only sovereign governments can authorize coinage and only sovereign mints can produce coins.”
One caveat here: sovereign governments can contract out the production to private mints. Case in point: Panama uses (or used to use) the Franklin Mint to produce coins.
“I think it would be possible to strike with a drop hammer, which is why I considered making one. I was making stampings for jewelry and considered making multiples, so I carved tool steel dies which did work, but not reliably as I (and my husband) were not good at swinging a sledge hammer. I had a piece of round tool steel which was shorter than the collar it was placed in which was place on a steel anvil. Then I put in a round piece of fine silver and then placed the carved round die on top inside the collar. The dilemma is hitting the die absolutely square, which was beyond my capabilities. I figured if a made a drop hammer that weighed 10 or so pounds that traveled in a piece of pipe at a height of approximately 10 feet I could probably strike with enough force to get a good impression, but the rebound would probably double strike the stamping, which is why I gave up on the process. I think maybe some spring mechanism would solve the problem, but I lost interest in the project.”
I’ve seen that sort of rig at the Renaissance Faire. It was used to stamp necklace pendants (which were then strung on a leather thong). The drop head was lifted with a hand crank, then released from its cable; the hammer dropped and slammed in to the silver blank, which was supported by an appropriate anvil die. The silver blanks weren’t perfectly circular, they had a small tab (with a hole for the thong) that kept the blank in alignment with the anvil die.
“The key is to anneal your metals properly. A 10 ton bottle jack in a press will indent the metal very adequately, maybe coupled with a 5 pound hammer blow, while under pressure. The metal round should come out hard, as it will be work hardened by the pressure.”
Annealing is a key step in the process. If omitted, the dies won’t last as long.
“I had a Indian customer in my refining days who bought fine gold and made 22kt bangle bracelets which were carefully sized to contain 1 troy oz of fine gold. He sold them to Indian tourists who could safely take them back to India, no questions asked. He told me if you were caught getting off a plane in India with a few ounces of gold coins, you were in trouble but your wife could have an arm full of gold bangles, no problem, have a nice day!”
This is a wonderful idea, but it takes a bit for the start-up costs. Bangle bracelets are one of the easiest projects in jewelry. The metal gets run through a rolling mill that stamps the pattern into it and it comes out by the mile. With the correct width, the pattern wire can be cut to the correct length (in order to get the preferred weight), then the ends are dressed and the ends soldered together. The soldered bracelet gets placed on a bracelet mandrel and is them hammered with a mallet as the bracelet gets rotated around the mandrel. The errors get spread out as the bracelet is hammered and it turns into a circle almost automatically. Stamp it with the purity stamp, then polish it out. I’ve made hundreds of them in sterling silver.
Start-up costs: rolling mill, bracelet mandrel, mallet and a spool of metal to feed into the rolling mill. It would also be good to have a buffing machine, some different buffs and some different buffing compounds.
Here’s another thought. What about making buttons? One ounce buttons might be uncomfortably large, but half-ounce, quarter-ounce, eighth-ounce and sixteenth-ounce buttons might work fairly well. Given that they can be punched from a spool of metal strapping on a continuous-feed mill, their production should be inexpensive. In addition to having the button punched out, the designs and the button's holes could be pressed in the same step. They would make for some fancy clothing, but could be used in barter when still loose or if they were removed.
Thipdar
So, I went to the Treasury Dept. website and searched for counterfeits and what to do, etc.
