Metabisulfite not showing up gold

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charlesconnor

Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
10
Hi, im refining scrap with the aqua regia method, but instead of clorhidric acid im using muriatic, then the urea and finally the metabisulfite; ive had two good results, but the third time i did the same process and the metabisulfite did not show the gold up by the time i added it, then i saw it but the metabisulfite like ate it and it disappeared. Why is this happening and how do i have my gold back? Thanks.
 
Hi Charles!
Hydrochloric and muriatic acid is the same. What type of material are you processing? If you added the SMB, gold appeared and then dissappeared... it sounds like you might have too much nitric still in your AR. You can try to evaporate the nitirc and then add the SMB, or cement the gold with clean copper.
You need to do a bit more reading in order to know what to expect from your process and how to "fix" any problems you run into.
Take care and be safe!
Phil
 
first, did you test with stannous chloride to make sure gold is in solution?
second, did you add the SMB dry or in a solution with water?
third, did you add the urea until there was no more red fumes?

theres two usual reasons the SMB fails to drop gold (1) theres no gold in solution (2) theres still free nitric acid that needs to be neutralized first. add SMB dry and watch the reaction. does the SMB fizz and boil with red fumes? does it make a very dark brown to black stain on top of the solution that disappears?
 
[youtube][/youtube]Well ive done this same process two times and i did get the gold, the material im using is scrap from an aspirator of a jewerly workshop, it does has gold in it, i got gold from there before, when i add the urea there are no colored fumes just steam and i add until there is no reaction, then i filter it and then i add the SMB, but this time there is no gold. And yes, there is brown fumes when i add the SMB but not when i add the urea to take the nitric out of the solution.
 
The brown fumes when adding SMB are a clear sign of excess nitric.
From a post that I read recently, I understood that urea doesn't get rid of excess nitric. I believe Butcher wrote the post. You need to learn how to calculate the amount of nitric nedeed for your process, and then, add it in increments, this way you don't end up with too much nitric left in the solution after all your material has been dissolved.
Phil
 
well im teying to get out of the nitric acid axcess, but i dont know how, if i boil it or what... also i read that i had to add 1L of nitric and 4.5L of muriatic per kilo of scrap
 
Charles, how much solution do you have? You might have to evaporate the solution down, DO NOT BOIL! If you boil, you will loose gold!
Even if the calculations say "so much nitric" you must always add it in increments, then you keep an eye on the reaction. You add nitric when the reaction stops and there is still material to be dissolved. When the reaction stops and there's no more material, you won't be running into trouble.
Here is material for you to read:
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=16744&p=174860&hilit=urea+excess+nitric#p174860
This is where Butcher mentioned:
Urea will not destroy HNO3 nitric acid; it can destroy nitrous acid HNO2 or NO2 in solution.
Phil
 
Phil,now i have a 4L solution and im evaporating only 1L of it to see how it goes, but what i dont understand is the part of adding the nitric acid and the muriatic, do i mix them and add them slowly or separate; and with the urea, ive used it always with this process and in all of the info ive gattered it is always mentioned...Thanks by the help, also.
 
You never should pre-mix the acids. You start with the amount of HCl needed for the whole process; then you add in increments of the amount of nitric needed, until all the material has been dissolved. If you dissolve all the material and some nitric was left over, that's nitric that you won't have to contend with later in your solution.
How much material did you dissolved in those 4L of solution?
Heat the solution until you see vapor coming off, do not boil! This will take a while... and is a bit more "complicated", there are some steps to follow. If you want it faster, cement the gold with clean copper. Then refine it, which will be much simpler.
Where did you get the information to process your material? If it would have been here, you would have known how to deal with this problem, and most likely, wouldn't have run into this problem.
You can also set aside the solution, (which I highly recommend), the gold is going no where; do the proper research here and then tackle it again. You will enjoy every step of it!
Take care and be safe!
Phil
 
I dissolved 1kilo in that solution, the scrap is dust from the motors they use to polish the jewels, also i got gold from the dust sweeped from the floor, by this same method, this time it went this way. The info i got it from a book from goldsmith´s and i saw a video where they used 1HNO3 per 3HCl, later the urea for the nitric and finally SMB...
Now, i added SMB and it like makes brown fumes and yellow foams comes out from the beaker... kinda weird, right?
 
i suggest you use copper to cement all the values that is in solution now. use a heavy thick piece of copper (like a copper buss bar) so that the copper wont be digested completely in the process. in a couple of days powder collects on the copper and falls to the bottom of the container. these powders are your values.keep the copper in the solution until all action stops. collect these powder and refine again. i would recommend hcl/Cl to dissolve the powders. no nitric to even deal with.
 
Hi...
Seems you read somewhere or something and are now doing what you've seen or read... Unfortunately, incomplete information is everywhere.
I hope you still have your past solutions as you probably did NOT get all the PMs out of it.
Put clean copper in all your solutions. As much as it will disolve.
Rinse and save anything that comes out of solution. Copper and gold.
Save it untill you learn more please.

Now onto SAFETY!...
I do hope you are outside or under a fume hood... Breathing any fumes can KILL!
The solutions you have left over from everything need to be properly disposed of... not just dumped somewhere...
Look on theboard index for safety and dealing with spent colutions/wastes.
After you've stopped everything you are doing, please look around the forum and read as much as you can about what you are doing. At least do this.

Better would be to search here for "Hooke's book" on all of this. It's free here if you search for it. Please read through the book and learn proper ways of refinning PMs. Not only will you learn how to do it right, do it safely, but you will also learn how to make sure you get ALL PMs out of the materials you start with.

PLEASE do it right?
BS.
The path to riches blinds the smartest with greed and impatience...
 
Hi, actually we have a small lab on our factory, we are aware of the precaution that we must have when dealing with these materials, also this is the way we have been doing it, its just this time that went wrong...im waiting to go to college and learn more about refining in fact we are kinda beginning with this, my father an i, so i hope i could get to know more about this process and learn how to deal with every matter that shows up...Thanks!
I found the C.M Hoke book, so im gonna start reading it...
 
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=12083&p=119925&hilit=jewelers+waste#p118780

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=13182&p=134114&hilit=polishing#p132146
 
Charlesconnor,

If I can make some additions to the good advice you have already been given.

If you were working with polishing sweeps, I would study Harold’s advices on doing these, search for polishing sweeps, read these posts under Harold's name.
Incineration would be an important step; you do not want to skip.

Incineration is a good pre-step with most any material you process, it gets rid of trash and oils, carbonaceous materials, salts of previous acids and can even help to oxidize base metals, and prepare troublesome metals for oxidizing them making it easier to dissolve them later.

(Calculate the amount of base metals and gold or other valuable metal when you can to determine how much acids are needed, if you are working in situations where you cannot calculate the amounts, use small additions, with heat, leaving some material left undissolved after solution is concentrated can insure you have used up the acid added).


GSP and other forum members, have worked out the numbers of how much nitric acid to use to dissolve silver or base metals, there are a few variations but they are all fairly close, the one I use is:

1.2ml 70% HNO3 + 1.2ml per gram of silver
(Copper takes 3.4 times as much)
4.15ml 70% HNO3 +4.15ml H2O
(one gram of copper will cement 3.4ml of silver from AgNO3 solution)


Hoke book gives us the amount of aqua regia to dissolve a troy ounce of gold, as one fluid ounce of 70% HNO3 and four fluid ounces of 32% HCl
From this we get:
118ml 32% HCl + 29.5ml 70%HNO3 to dissolve a troy ounce of gold.
3.8ml 32%HCl + 0.95ml 70%HNO3 to dissolve each gram of gold.

(Calculate the amount of base metals and gold when you can to determine how much acids are needed)

Remove silver and base metals from your gold before dissolving it.

As stated earlier HCl in excess cause no problems, and you can measure out amount needed and add it to the gold,
(Heating now can also let you see if you may have some base metals that did not get completely dissolved, or were left from previous treatment, silver chloride would be white copper would color acid green in this case I would raise the heat, lower it, but keeping it very hot let gold settle, siphon off HCl and replace it with clean HCl), HCl is fairly easy to get and cheap enough, let any liquid you decant settle in a cooling jar just in case you carried some values with the decanted solutions.

The nitric would be measured out amount calculated to dissolve the amount of gold you have, I measure it out in a small clean vessel, adding it only in proportions, to the heated HCl and gold, at first I may give it a larger portion of acid, and slowing additions down as solution concentrates, pipette the nitric in a drops at the later stages.

(As solution gets more concentrated I will add a little H2SO4 in drops, this will help form insoluble lead sulfate later, and can help from mistakenly evaporating solution to salts, it also helps in the process later of vaporizing off unused HNO3 from solution).

I try to use heat (not boiling) to drive off water from the acids as the gold dissolves, and as I add my nitric acid, my goal is to have the solution concentrated as the gold dissolves, and when most all of the gold is dissolved my last drops of HNO3 are added to finish the job, and just a little heat to consume the HNO3 and finish dissolving the gold, as the acids concentrate they get stronger, (adding acid we are also adding water that is involved in the acid), their is also a point where boil-over is likely to possibly happen where the acids concentrate to a certain point (azeotrope) and try to come out of solution all at once boiling the solution over in a foam of gases trying to escape, so watching for this reaction and lowering heat as solution is concentrated (you will see small bubbles begin to form around the rim of acid at this point lower heat for gases to escape more slower, after you are past this point heat can be raised again), after almost all gold is dissolved the acid is concentrated and the last drop of nitric is added to finish dissolving the gold it only takes a little time to vapor off any unused HNO3, because we would not have more than a few drops,

Also do not keep adding HNO3 trying to dissolve materials that will not dissolve or if to hard leave them for the next batch (or if platinum or some other hard to dissolve metal save for another process, basically do not keep using nitric acid to try and dissolve the sand or other not easily dissolved metal, and ending up with excess acid.

Now the gold is dissolved or almost all of it (leaving a little undissolved gold for next time, can insure you used up all of the nitric), the solution is concentrated I concentrate a little further the solution changes from yellow to orange and becomes almost a red orange color, add just a little HCl (this is 68% water and 32% HCL) so the acid also dilutes the solution this water will need vaporized off before the acid concentrates and pushes out any remaining HNO3, so we do not need much HCL, just enough to wet solution a little, concentrate back to thick reddish orange syrup, and do this one more time again, this here will insure most all of the nitric is either used or evaporated off, here I will turn off heat on the concentrated solution and let solution cool a little, and settle any thing that would not dissolve, when solution is clear, I use a suction tool and a pipette to remove the liquid from the undissolved material, to a clean vessel, which I add about four time the amount of water, I will also add a small splash of HCl, letting this sit overnight in the cold night air, covering the vessel with a watch-glass cover to let silver chloride precipitate and any lead salt.

If I suspect any unused nitric I will use a little Sulfamic acid (I use grout cleaner from home depot, I also only do this on my first refine), the Sulfamic not only will destroy any unused HNO3, but will also form sulfuric acid in the reaction helping to precipitate lead sulfate.
The after sitting over night or longer, solution is again decanted and filtered to a clean vessel, before using my reagent to precipitate the gold, this gold is then washed per Harold's washing procedure before being dissolved and refined again, the second refining is always much easier than the first, and improves the gold making it well worth the effort.

Keep the urea to fertilize your grass, a few prills can be saved to test for nitric in some situations, but basically urea in my opinion should be used as fertilizer not in refining gold, the ammonium compounds it can create in solutions could become dangerous in some situations, or have adverse reactions with PGMs if you are dealing with them in solution, Urea it is just not needed in my opinion.
 
Thanks Butcher and Phil for the info, the thing is that the scrap im using is polishing buff which contains lots of dust and no gold particles can be seen, so i dont know how to measure the quantity of gold in it i just follow the process ive seen, first, as i said, it went good i got 70g of gold. So to get rid of excess of nitric do i have to use sulfamic and not urea? What i know is that there is gold...also i asked for the sulfamic acid and my supplier has it but in solution not in powder, does it matter?
 
charlesconnor said:
Thanks Butcher and Phil for the info, the thing is that the scrap im using is polishing buff which contains lots of dust and no gold particles can be seen, so i dont know how to measure the quantity of gold in it i just follow the process ive seen, first, as i said, it went good i got 70g of gold. So to get rid of excess of nitric do i have to use sulfamic and not urea? What i know is that there is gold...also i asked for the sulfamic acid and my supplier has it but in solution not in powder, does it matter?

For polishing wastes, I would follow Harold's instructions in this thread. Read the whole thread but focus on Harold's posts, especially the first one in the link below.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=1253&start=20
 
GSP thanks for finding the post on sweeps, thanks also for giving us the tip on using sulfamic acid, I have only used it, in very small quantity, just a little bit as insurance,at the end of my other processes and have no problems since.


charlesconnor,
Besides eliminating trash and base metals before putting gold in solution,
I like using a combination of some or all of these methods, minimum nitric use, evaporation technique, excess gold left undissolved (or added gold button), and the little bit of sulfamic acid as an insurance policy, doing so I have not had a problem of excess nitric keeping gold from precipitating from solution when using aqua regia.

Liquid sulfamic acid will work just fine, I may be cleaner than the powdered grout cleaner from home depot, with the liquid you wouldn't have to dissolve and filter the solution, but you may also be paying a little more for it.

If you do the nitric addition and evaporation properly, you really would have no need the sulfamic any way.

Even if you do not know the gold content you can still do the minimum acid additions, although it will be a little more challenging.

After incineration and other pretreatments, and parting with nitric, you can weigh the remaining material and use that to figure close to what you may need, as we stated more HCl is not a problem, nitric can be added in small increments as we discussed above, leaving a little gold at the end is another way to judge consumption of HNO3.

Another trick as you will learn here on the forum from Harold how to add a small gold button to use up excess nitric with evaporation, the only gold that would dissolve is what was needed to remove excess HNO3 and you get the gold back with this batch, the button can be weighed before and after to see how much of it may have went into solution.

Use your stannous chloride test, it can also be useful not only to verify gold in solution and gain a reference, but the stannous can be a very good clue as to if you have too much oxidizer in solution like nitric acid, that may cause problem when trying to precipitate gold, so testing the solution before you begin to add a reagent to precipitate gold is very useful. The stannous chloride to test positive even if you do have gold in solution, has to be able to reduce the gold to the violet colloidal metal gold which colors the test solution, if you have gold in solution and get a violet color that instantly disappears, or will not appear at all could be because of excess HNO3 re-dissolving or keeping the gold dissolved and not letting the stannous chloride reduce it to the violet colored metal.

Keep studying the forum and Hokes book.
 

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