Metal prices.

[butcher]

401K retirement plans and other retirement plans, In ways, I feel we almost are forced have to play a game that is rigged, we work to save (store what we have earned with our labor) our savings are penalized or taxed if we want to hold them ourselves or invest them in another form such as something real like physical gold or physical land...

Our retirement savings are in a way held for ransom to be used by others, as a way for them to make money from loaning our savings to others. Sure we can decide which company we choose to allow to play with our savings, but we cannot really decide what we can do with the savings of our labor unless we choose to lose some of it through being taxed excessively for not letting them profit from our labor,

What is going to happen with all of the baby boomers, when their saving is basically nothing but a promise, basically just being held in a stock market type market or Ponzi game. considering what has happened in our past when the market crashes or the banks all of a sudden decide to shut their doors, and we cannot access our savings but find we that may have lost it in some kind of reset, and this game comes to an end all of a sudden.

Many of these games we are forced to play (or taught to play blindly) are rigged against our favor so that others can profit from our labor.

If it is not physical, or if you cannot hold it in your hand is it really real? I fear when that when a reset, a stock market crash, or through hyperinflation as or our government's paper money press work overtime to lead us into hyperinflation, many who do not have their savings in their hands may lose their ability to live off their own hard work in their older years when they are not able to earn their bread as they did in their youth.

Metals and land are real, I can hold them in my hand, I took a big loss in taxes and penalties when I took my retirement out of the stock Ponzi game, or out of the game where some other companies have use of my money for their own profit, But now I have something physical, land and gold, that I have more control over and more likely to profit from, or at least store all of that hard work of my youth in savings and of something real and tangible.

To me, gold is not money, just as I do not consider land as money, but a gift from our maker for us to use wisely and for good. But then again what better money could you have in your pocket in times like these or what we have seen in the past history or which we may soon be seeing again in our near future.

 

[kurtak]

Just for the heck of it - here is a bitcoin chart If you move you mouse along the graph line it will tell you the weekly price change)

in September 2010 it was 6 cents per coin --- today it is over $57,000 per coin

if you had bought $6 of coin back then (100 coin) you would now be worth 5,700,000

IF (the big IF) I (we) had known then what we know now :shock:

Just in the last year it has gone up around 51,000 :shock:

Just saying :?: --- more to come :wink:

Kurt

 

[butcher]

If in one hand, and nothing in the other, a wish in one hand and shh in the other.
Risky gambles offer risky returns.

When I look at those numbers of returns, I see a really big gamble to put your money into.
I do not feel I have luck and I choose not to gamble, I do not spend a quarter dollar gambling on winning the publishing clearinghouse check and having TV cameras at my door, my quarter dollars went into land or gold, what I feel is more of a sure bet.
we all have to choose where we spend our quarter dollars, or if we wish to gamble and what on.

Before 1929 many saw their stocks hit all-time highs, all the folks were borrowing money to ante up and put their chips into the gamble on those winning numbers, some did good and we're lucky, but in the end, most lost all they had worked for and found it hard to feed themselves.

Most lost that gamble, those who had some land or gold at least had more of a chance of survival and in some cases profited from having something physical to trade for bread or to grow their food...

Which is best for you? A bird in your hand you can eat, or two bigger birds in the bush, gold in your hand, or bigger numbers in the bush.

 

[kurtak]

might find this interesting

I did a search to see how many ozt of paper gold there is for every ozt of physical gold

in other words ETF gold (or Exchange Trade Fund gold) which would be the physical gold the traders physically hold compared to the paper they trade (sell) on the physical holding

In my search I typed in the year 2020 for paper vs physical but the closest I could find for real numbers was 2016 - most of the results where about "why" you should invest in ETF gold (in other words why you should buy paper gold with the promise that the seller will hold the physical for you - which we know is a lie)

:arrow: https://www.birchgold.com/physical-vs-paper-gold/

in that article (the part of interest) says ------------

Gold certificates

Gold certificates are pieces of paper that can be redeemed for gold.

In the gold certificate market, there is not enough registered gold backing the certificates that are currently being sold and traded. In 2012, there were about 20 claims on COMEX on every one ounce of physical gold in its registered inventories. Four years later, in 2016, the number for COMEX ballooned to 550 paper ounces outstanding for every physical ounce of gold.

That was 4 years ago - wonder where that (550) number is now

but even at the 2016 number - at todays gold price ($1,700/ozt) X 550 = $935,000 per ozt physical :shock:

Kurt

 

[alexxx]

might find this interesting

I did a search to see how many ozt of paper gold there is for every ozt of physical gold

in other words ETF gold (or Exchange Trade Fund gold) which would be the physical gold the traders physically hold compared to the paper they trade (sell) on the physical holding

In my search I typed in the year 2020 for paper vs physical but the closest I could find for real numbers was 2016 - most of the results where about "why" you should invest in ETF gold (in other words why you should buy paper gold with the promise that the seller will hold the physical for you - which we know is a lie)

:arrow: https://www.birchgold.com/physical-vs-paper-gold/

in that article (the part of interest) says ------------

Gold certificates

Gold certificates are pieces of paper that can be redeemed for gold.

In the gold certificate market, there is not enough registered gold backing the certificates that are currently being sold and traded. In 2012, there were about 20 claims on COMEX on every one ounce of physical gold in its registered inventories. Four years later, in 2016, the number for COMEX ballooned to 550 paper ounces outstanding for every physical ounce of gold.

That was 4 years ago - wonder where that (550) number is now

but even at the 2016 number - at todays gold price ($1,700/ozt) X 550 = $935,000 per ozt physical :shock:

Kurt

I doubt these numbers are even close to the truth.. why would they be? I don't trust any of their numbers.
I believe they just have no freakin idea.
Gambling & stealing... numbers don't matter as long as the ponzy scam keeps going on and they can high five each other at lunch while popping a 8k bottle just for fun.

 

[nickvc]

What you mean there isn’t enough gold to cover all that paper gold :shock: :roll:

 

[butcher]

How can I cash in during a time of need? Will I have to wait in line at an ATM for hours on end to get only pennies of my savings each day? Will I be able to cash in on bitcoins if my phone does not work? How many farmers will take my bitcoin for the food or eggs I need, will my neighbor exchange his currency for mine/
I haven't seen too many gas stations or stores that take those coins...

Although then again, try taking an American Gold Eagle coin to taco bell and buy a taco with it, the cashier will tell look at you with a blank stare, then confused, after determining you are serious, she states that she can not take that kind of legal tender, so you try to tell her it is gold money, and she says she has no idea of its value, she can not take your gold coin for a taco, that she needs a couple of dollar bills with dead men's faces printed by the government, on green paper, or that she can take major credit cards, or some other type of card to put into her machines that does the figuring for her... Take that same gold coin out onto the street and ask people which they would rather have the gold coin or a sugar-sweet chocolate candy bar with nuts, guess which one they choose???
I guess they just like nuts in candies.

I do not understand it, being an ole poor country boy, I never thought that much about money, except that I never had any, and I had to produce a heck of a lot of sweat to get some to buy anything worth something to me or to feed our family, I never cared to learn about money except what work I could do to get some to survive, as long as I had enough to feed my family, and the more I now learn about it the more I see people, for the most part, do not really know much about it at all either, although I believe they are lead to believe they do, lead like sheep for slaughter... from what I can tell only a few at the packing plant cashing in on them thar sheepskins.

My goal has never been to get rich, if it was I would focus on controlling others' debt, or learning to play with others' hard-earned wealth, or learning to play or gamble in the rigged games...

I just want to preserve what I have worked so hard for and get a fair return for my labor.
Gold is like Taters or mater's (tomatoes and potatoes for the city folks here), plant it in the ground and tomorrow you will have something to eat, what you work for today will you can pay for your food tomorrow, Elemental money made of the elements, its elemental money or a store of your labor, and security for your survival or security...

How many of those big players are playing the game to get all of the gold? I see they have many tools and tricks to get it too, such as paper, stocks, bonds, insurance, specialized plans like medical, bitcoins, gold and silver paper ounces ( I never had one, but I doubt that paper weighs a full ounce), taxes outright theft, well the list goes on, those guys are not worried about feeding their family, and they can care less if you can feed yours.

I say plant your gold deep, plant your potatoes above that, sell or trade your bitcoins for potatoes if you still can.

 

[kurtak]

Butcher

For the most part - if not completely - I agree with everything you are saying - after all I am a simple country country boy my self & always have been --- I believe in working hard & that hard work & the things hard work earns me are my true value & I believe in owning out right that which my hard work earns me

In other words - if I hold it in my hands it is mine because my hard work ether pays for it out right because I have found that if I can't own it out right I ether don't need it or I can wait for it (Save any extra my hard work provides until the things I want can be paid for & owned out right) I don't believe in credit because I don't believe in paying someone else extra (interest) for the things I want --- why would I pay $110 (pay $10 interest) for something I can buy for $100 (by saving to buy out right)

I have watched to many people loose everything (they worked hard for) by putting their trust in the big money movers hands

On the other hand I have known people that have been VERY successful playing in that game - but they are few in number compared to the losers when you play in a game that is rigged --- if you don't understand the rules

I don't understand the rules - so I simply don't play in that game - I work to hard for my money to gamble with it

Therefore - if I am going to own gold & silver I want to hold it in my hand

This thread was started by Nick posting -

Do I think people are trying to manipulate the market.....

The answer to that "is of course they are" :!:

It is ALL manipulated - whether its paper - digital - or physical

Which is why I posted about crypto (digital) & ETF (paper)

With digital/paper they are able to control/manipulate ALL THINGS physical (& that includes the paper they right laws on)

I mean think about it - if they could ONLY print 1 ozt gold paper for every 1 ozt physical gold they hold - the value of a physical ozt gold would be MUCH higher --- the value of physical is MUCH lower then it should be because they water its value down (manipulate its value) with many times more in paper then they actually hold

Its called FRAUD (if you & I do it) but they print on paper - laws that allow them and ONLY them to do such things in order to advance their own wealth & POWER

Thats all I have time for today - its time to go to work so I can "earn" something more that is physical & that I can hold in my hand at the end of the day

Kurt

 

[snoman701]

Glad to hear you can even find that.

Talk about ROI...if I had purchased brass and lead in fabricated, useful form a few years/administrations' back I'd be RICH!

I've still got decades worth of that collected, more than a lifetime of everything.

I just wish I had put up a polebarn. I can't afford to buy lumber anymore.

 

[butcher]

Lou, no doubt that the combination of metals will be as good as silver for trade.

If you owe for something it is not yours, you are renting to use it.
My guess is 70% of those who think they own their home in this country are renting from bankers who pull the strings, their stored labor or wealth is lost to interest, and its value is deflating, if you do not have something as collateral, skills to trade, gold or silver buried, some way to pay you are basically in the same bout as other renters who find themselves losing the roof over their head.

Pay off your debt.
if you have to raise 150 chickens and 40 rabbits in your garage, selling the eggs for $7,500 ($5/doz eggs), and the rabbits for $25.00 or for $25,000.
Well, you do not have to be a farmer, you can use any skill, but pay off your debt.
Where there is a will there is a way.
A man with a full stomach, cannot find a way, a hungry man will find it.
You have to be hungry and want it.
Hunger can make a man work hard to learn or gain the skills, or to give him drive he may not have with a full stomach.

So many today if they have not lost their home or job, or savings yet, could lose it easily lose all through debt.

Also do not become depressed like a pig, a pig can only see 15 inches above the ground, and nothing very far from him, hard times can blind a man to looking down at the ground all the time, opportunities well he blindly passes them by looking for a sweet treat, or something to eat, and misses his chance to prosper.

Hone your assets and get your ducks marching in a row, hone your labor skills, hone your attention on what is needed as just opposed as wanted, work on paying with your labor what you can afford and not what you want or pleases your ego, living below your means to get out of debt and concentrating on putting some of your excess labor away (saving your money, in something like burying your gold) (or growing chickens in your garage, to buy bread another day when the dollar cannot.


We have been tricked into play a game, we have been blinded just as they do pin the tail on the donkey, but I believe the game if we play it is rigged, we need to pull off our blinders and wake up, get out of debt so we can feed ourselves possibly have some for our neighbor and some of our previous labor ( buried gold) or another method to store what you are working for today to trade tomorrow.

Faith and morals can lead you through a hard time, that is if you not like the pig depressed and looking down all the time, hard work and skills are good as gold, develop your skills of survival, financially and so you can improve your finances, and ability to prosper, education This may be hardest for most as they do not know how to educate themselves (they have blinders on of the education systems) they have been lead to believe is learning, and often thinking themselves to smart to learn or just from laziness do not care to
I say it is harder to teach a college-educated man how to do a job than someone who has not gone to college, the college man does not want to spend his time learning and may have lost a lot of common sense.

History if all you learned of it was in school, then you do not really know much about it at all.
Economics well schools failed us there too (most likely by design).
If you believe you are educated based on schooling you may be fooling yourself, and you should rethink your position and commence to educate yourself.
Stop following others like sheep over the cliff, get out of debt.

I would like to see all of my friends here profit from their labor if it is in learning about gold along with them or helping them to see the chemistry differently.

Many of our members here are living in difficult situations, but we can all help to better ourselves and help each other.

Pay off your debt and store your wealth or your excess labor (your ability to buy bread tomorrow) in something that will be worth more tomorrow, not a gamble, but in a true historically proven storehouse for your labor, not investing in stocks or bitcoin or the casinos, or paper money in a bank.

Land, gold, silver, chickens, your skills, tools, shaped brass hulls and lead, copper, basically something that actually holds or increases in value, as it takes more and more dollars of your worthless money to buy bread or finish paying off your home.

With saved labor you have the ability to live through and possibly prosper in hard times, possibly having more of an ability to purchase land or a home in harder times...

Stop listening to the elite, follow what you know in your heart, empty your stomach so you are hungry enough to find a way.

I once was homeless with two small children, I stuck my hands to the grindstone, and each day got better than the one before, with faith and hard work I am out that whole, today I educate myself as much as I can to keep my ars out of that hole, and hopefully, I can also learn to help my neighbor out of his...

The right road is not very well-traveled, the big roads may lead you nowhere, the right road may seem slow or hard to get through, but have more rewards at the end.
If it is too easy I would be cautious what is the trick or game?

Too much coffee you say, well you should hear me when I get TWO-ooo-xxx much whiskey.

 

[Lino1406]

That was inspiring Butcher!

 

[alexxx]

That was inspiring Butcher!

yes indeed. Wisdom and clarity. Anyone having a hard time these days or feeling insecurity regarding financial health should read Butchers post 2-3 times slowly.

I once was rich, than dead poor with little/nothing to show for, besides debts. I educated myself the best I could, outside the classical classes, worked my ass off and today I feel like I could make it trough any type of disaster (including a decent sized meteor) with my little land, my buried stack, my chickens and rabbits and my skillset.

Anyone who's hungry enough can make it from minus 50k to a couple 100k in tangible valuable assets in less than 5 years.

Knowledge is at our finger tips, tons of opportunities everywhere. Strange times, but anyone and everyone can pull it off. f you need to learn welding on youtube, do it. If you need to haul dead washing machines from the curbs, do it.

I feel that there is no excuses in these modern times.

 

[kurtak]

I can't afford to buy lumber anymore.

And that is no bull - I am a carpenter - we are building a 3,000 Square foot timber frame house - thanks to covid it has been hard to even get materials - which has actually caused us to have to stop working on that project waiting on materials from time to time (thankfully we have a number of other projects so we always have work) - anyway - last mid summer a sheet of 1/2 inch OSB went from $15 per sheet to $25 per sheet - a couple weeks ago we had to pick up another unit of OSB & I was told it was now $50 per sheet

When we first started on the build it was supposed to be a $500,000 build --- I am betting when we are done it will be $750,000 or more - the price of ALL materials is going up by A LOT

Luckily the owner we are working for - $1,000,000 is pocket change to him so he doesn't even bat an eye at price - he is just frustrated at the job being slowed down by waiting on materials

Kurt

 

[rickbb]

Recently my metal investment has been in brass/lead :wink: :mrgreen:

Buying as many pounds as I can every two weeks when I get my pay check

Kurt

I know people still sitting on what they horded for the Y2K end of the world event. And they are still stocking up for the next end of the world event. Seems to be one every 4 to 8 years for some odd reason. 8)

 

[butcher]

Tomato plants.
Planting two one in a controlled environment in your home, give it tender care, tending to its every need.plant the other outdoors.

The plant outdoors experiences stress, hard times, it has to struggle for its survival, drought, the sun may cook its hide, the rain can almost drown its root system, the hail beats at it, the frost biting at its tips as it shivers through the long frigid nights.

The plant grown inside thrives, its leaves are green and undamaged, it has very little stress as it is well provided for, its roots do not have to search for water, its root system does not grow muscles in working for nutrients, its skin is undamaged, but it quickly cries if any little need is not met.

Guess what happens if we trade places with these plants, the nursed plant cannot survive the outdoors, or any neglect, it has no muscles to overcome stress or a hard time, it cannot develop to prosper, or get out of the death spiral of its life, and may struggle to its end.

Guess which tomato plants will bear sweeter fruit?

we are not far from being tomato plants, we have generations that have been nursed to their own demise, they have lost their root system.

Others of us have been hardened by life's trials and can survive a storm or two and still bear good fruit.

A poor kid who eats dirt, and does not get sick but develops a healthy immune system, where a nursed child kept in an unnaturally clean environment and never having an empty belly, and experiences no hunger in life can develop all kinds of allergies and infections, dietary problems or cannot deal with the environment.

social I do not know the words, or government, or these kinds of programs can grow tomatoes that can not handle a storm.
Many who think they are poor have no idea what real poverty is, they have food in their bellies, the care of the programs meant to help the plants thrive is the very thing that weakens the development of their root systems disabling them into true poverty, the sad thing is they learn street smarts of survival and like the pig cannot see 14 inches above the ground, when they get in a pit they cannot see above to get out.

I grew up in poor poverty, but I have never been poor, many a time I had nothing to eat as a child, but I was not poor. homeless as an adult with no job or prospects for any, or having trouble keeping my children fed (even with the help of roadkill), or a rifle and hoe or plow. but never poor, poverty is a state of mind, as is depression which may be two sides of the same coin, or at least they seem to pack around the barnyard together stomping them tomato plants.

What the heck is going on it's like the whole world is depressed, in chaos and turmoil, the man seems to have become sheep, even the rich are poor, up is down and Good is Bad.

Man has the potential, the world can support us all and do so well, the earth can easily feed us all and shelter us all and do so sustainably if we could only wake up.

Give a hungry man some food every day, and he will come to expect it (resenting you) because you disable him by keeping his gut full, you take the hunger that would drive him to provide his own food, or get out of the pits we put him into.

I thank my Maker that I do have stress in life, how else are we to grow muscles, and gain our strong roots.
Thank goodness we have the ability to be smarter than sheep or tomato plants.
If you do not stand for what is right you will fall for anything.

if you think you are poor you probably are, and you may never see the way out, if you are hungry your belly may be empty, but you will find a way out. if you take handouts you are selling yourself into slavery and that pit you cannot see out of...

Let us step back to see a bigger picture, maybe we need to adjust our blinders and need to widen our views, we all have potential, we can stand up and be strong, flex some muscle and grow some muscle, work through the stresses of life, stand up for what we know to be right and just, help our neighbors (but not enabled them) and work peacefully together to make this world better.

Evil has no power over good, that is an illusion, today is not much different than it has ever been, this battle has gone on since the beginning of time, and as long as man remains blind it will continue, but we do not have to be a part of it, or can prosper in spite of it, we just need to continue to work together to help each other prosper, instead of trying to gain from another, or get the better deal...

By neglect we lose our freedom, others more corrupt gain power over us, we war with each other instead of giving the other a helping hand, we disable each other or other countries, by neglect we lose our moral and our freedoms by neglect we put ourselves into a state of poverty.


Lino, I have to ramble to try and get something out, and hopefully, it makes some kind of sense, you say it in a sentence that is nothing but wisdom.
we all see different, my wife sees things I am blind to, you see things I cannot, we both see something that others cannot.
In a herd or a flock each pair of eyes help the security and overall health or wealth of the heard, the flock becomes stronger, each of us can help the other see something we can see they cannot, we can use the sight of others to help us survive or thrive.

The shine of the gold will not do you any good if you are blind. the richest country in the world today will be the poorest tommorow, and if we continue to neglect and continue to sleep in this deep slumber, we will lose our freedoms, and what good is some gold if we lose our freedoms and are under the control of tyranny and cannot feed ourselves?

No sleep and more coffee, I have to start getting back out in the cold and get to work, or my muscles will weaken.

 

[butcher]

Metal prices, it is the price of everything else or its availability that concerns me, I figure the metal price will take care of itself and hold its trade value.

Been considering for a few years upgrading my sawmill from an Alaskan mill to a band saw or tracked circle sawmill, looks like the decision is being made for me.

I know the sawmills that used to ship logs to china are no longer working, the logger saws are rusting away, the forest growing into weed thickets that burn up the whole country with a spark...

lumber and toilet paper, I have a feeling we have not seen anything yet, but glimpses of what could come mainly from our own neglect.

 

[kurtak]

If you owe for something it is not yours, you are renting to use it.
My guess is 70% of those who think they own their home in this country are renting from bankers who pull the strings,

So true :!:

I watched a PBS program about 15/16 years ago - it was about people living in the lower end of the "middle" income bracket which they considered a yearly income of $90,000 to $160,000 - (meaning if you made less then $90,000 you were low income or even living in poverty - anything under $20,000 - $30,000 considered poverty)

Anyway - they figured that 70 - 80 % of the people living in the low/middle bracket (15/16 years ago)could not afford a $500 emergency &/or did not have a one month of reserve "cash on hand" --- & that is because they are in debt up to their eye balls --- & when an emergency happens - they lose it ALL

most my life I have lived at the line between (so called) poverty & low income - I have "never done without - always been able to afford "more" then a $500 emergency & in fact could usually even provide for others (if need be) --- but then - I have never been in debt - what I have I own - I don't need to rob from Peter to pay Paul --- which is what a lot of people do - or another words go more in debt to pay for debt

Have a co-worker that does just that - re-finances his house just about every year in order to pay off his credit cards &/or other debt

Kurt

 

[butcher]

Kurt My wife sherry often tells me how much she admires you and your ability, and asks how you are doing in the little piece of heaven you have made home.

So very much I cannot see or understand, when I do get a peek, it's almost alarming.

I have enjoyed your posts, but rarely feel the need to comment, this is my chance to tell you how I enjoy reading them.

 

[Lino1406]

Thanks Butcher and Alexxx and Kurt. I am really moved

 

[butcher]

Gold tried in the fire.

What makes gold such a wonder?
A metal that under stress and fire is concentrated or purified.


If gold of the earth had not seen this fire or stress, we may not have been able to use it throughout our history, if it was not for the heat and high pressures deep down within the earth faults or the volcanic action the gold on the earth would have never of concentrated to the point where a man could see it or mine it.

It is the stress that brings up gold from the bowels of the earth and the stress that purifies gold.

Just as man's stress purifies him (or breaks him) or makes him stronger, without evil the earth would have no angles, without pain we may never feel joy or relief.
Without a burden or the stress of weight, our muscles will not grow to become strong but weaken and wilt away.

Without stress, we cannot build character and become strong ourselves.

let us greet the challenges, or the stress put before us not with fear, but by standing up strong to the challenge. refining ourselves as well as our gold, raise our eyesight from the ground to become more aware, to try ourselves in these fires of life.

why if the wind blows a different direction do we fear, these stresses have been here since the beginning of time and will continue to the end, these stresses improve the animal and plant kingdoms ability to survive and maybe their reason for doing so,( dinosaurs could not overcome the stress) and these stresses may just be necessary for our own human survival and our strength from the past stress can help us become stronger for the good of us all.

So I say bring it on, I am ready for the challenge, I am ready to be refined, and will use all the strength I have to carry my burdens, knowing only good can come of it in the end.

Now if I can just find some gold to mine and try it in the fire.