steyr223
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Avoid copper, silver and mercury. Explosive acetylides can be formed on copper and aluminum bronze.
Metals from picture fixer solutions?
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I refuse to reveal how to make these explosives purposely. We all know that it would lead to someone's disaster. I'm sure that the moderators would not like it either. Neither the Homeland Security.
AVOID!!! : Ammonium ions with precious metals except for ammonium thiosulfate with ores only.
acetylene, map gas with sodium thiosulfate (sodium thionate), or ammonium thiosulfate in the presence of precious metal ions.
Oxalic acid with silver.
Any heavy metal with fumaric acid.
Heating lead di-chloride made from lead electrodes in an AC current. (It's bright yellow!)
Nitric acid and sulfuric acid with any organic or carbon but especially oils and fats and cotton.
Linoleic acid with cotton (auto-ignition).
Modern anti-bacterial dish soap and bleach.
LEGAL TROUBLE: Avoid assisting someone living in a sanctioned country (example: if you live in Canada, avoid jail time by assisting the Syrians) My favorite chess player, Bobby Fischer, became a fugitive for playing chess in a sanctioned country.
The penalties are sevier and the label of 'Traitor' difficult to remove.
This is something the moderators should watch out, as we could lose our forum.
I'm sure none of us want that!
:| Dr. Poe
AVOID!!! : Ammonium ions with precious metals except for ammonium thiosulfate with ores only.
acetylene, map gas with sodium thiosulfate (sodium thionate), or ammonium thiosulfate in the presence of precious metal ions.
Oxalic acid with silver.
Any heavy metal with fumaric acid.
Heating lead di-chloride made from lead electrodes in an AC current. (It's bright yellow!)
Nitric acid and sulfuric acid with any organic or carbon but especially oils and fats and cotton.
Linoleic acid with cotton (auto-ignition).
Modern anti-bacterial dish soap and bleach.
LEGAL TROUBLE: Avoid assisting someone living in a sanctioned country (example: if you live in Canada, avoid jail time by assisting the Syrians) My favorite chess player, Bobby Fischer, became a fugitive for playing chess in a sanctioned country.
The penalties are sevier and the label of 'Traitor' difficult to remove.
This is something the moderators should watch out, as we could lose our forum.
I'm sure none of us want that!
:| Dr. Poe
A
Anonymous
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Jesus! Just when I thought we were getting back to normal rational discussions!Dr. Poe said:
rusty
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mic said:
IMHO mic your comment is unwarranted, your leaving out the most important part of that conversation were Dr. Poe stated that his favorite chess player had become a fugitive from American justice.
Since we do not talk about politics and religion I will not elaborate further on the world chess champ, other than to suggest you google the fellows name, who won that tournament pocketing 3.3 million. But become a fugitive and labeled a traitor in doing so.
Then again the mans name wasn't sue.
jimdoc
Well-known member
rusty said:
The man named Sue left a few years ago, if that really was his name.
Jim
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This is but one of the reasons that I have promoted incineration before refining. It has, chiefly, fallen on deaf ears.Dr. Poe said:
Want a good example of reactions of cotton that have been wetted with nitric? Try burning an anode bag from a silver cell. No need to wait until it's dry.
Harold
Wow – This has turned into quite the discussion – both informative & thought provoking 8)
Anyway – I didn’t post anything yesterday because I spent about 4 or 5 hours researching primarily the acetylides thing - but also the PMs from photo fixer/toner solutions thing.
Photo toning (wiki link provided by Manual) = Metal replacement toners replace the metallic silver, through a series of chemical reactions, with a ferrocyanide salt of a transition metal. Some metals, such as platinum or gold can protect the image. Others, such as iron (blue toner) or copper (red toner) may reduce the lifetime of the image
Metal replacement toning with gold alone results in a blue-black tone. It is often combined with a sepia toner to produce a more attractive orange-red tone. The archival Gold Protective Solution (GP-1) formula uses a 1% gold chloride stock solution with sodium or potassium thiocyanate.[7] It is sometimes used to split tone photographs previously toned in selenium for artistic purposes.[8]
So there is the potential to have as much as a 1% gold content & maybe even some Pt. – I don’t have this expectation – but the potential is there. So the “potential” is 1oz Au per 100 oz Ag :shock: (I have about 200 oz so I can only hope without expectation) 8) maybe
Concerning the thing about acetylides (I spent the better part of 4 or 5 hours researching this one) acetylene gas is a hydrogen carbon H2C2 triple bond gas (meaning the bond is straight line H-C-C-H)
The acetylide is formed by the pure acetylene gas giving up it’s 2 H element replacing them with the elements that it will react with the acetylene (Ag, Au, Cu, Hg, & Se) It will do this “most readally” with the salts in an aqueous solution with the readyness to form the acetylide desending in order of dry salt, molten metal, solid metal – meaning it takes more time for acetylene gas to form the acetylide with a solid piece of elemental Ag then with silver in an aqueous solution (silver nitrate)
The reason for this is that as a salt in an aqueous solution the Ag is more readaly avalible to brake the bond of the hydrogen in the acetylene & form the acetylide.
The reason that acetylene can & will form an acetylide with sold elemental Ag is that acetylene it’s self is a “weak” acide (weaker then water) & even here it takes the acetylene being in the form of a liquid to brake the Ag down to a salt so that the bond exchange can take place between the hydrogen & the Ag (the very reason you should always drain your hoses after turning off the valve on your acetylene tank – brass fittings = 70% copper + acetylene = copper acetylide.
The reality here is that if acetylene was of any real concern when working with ether sold or molten Ag, Au, or Cu they would not be using brass fittings in acetylene torch set ups & plumbers & heating & air guys would not be using the same acetylene turbo torch set up I have to solder & silver braze copper pipe & tubing & metal fabricators would not be using oxy/acetylene set ups to cut, braze & weld these metals in there every day work.
The biggest concern here would be not draining your hoses after turning the acetylene tank off & allowing the gas to sit in the regulator, hoses & torch head for long periods of time. Pure acetylene gas (no flame) & salts are another story – one that should be avioded at all cost.
So I gotta go with butcher on this one – I don’t think the sky is falling
Kurt
Anyway – I didn’t post anything yesterday because I spent about 4 or 5 hours researching primarily the acetylides thing - but also the PMs from photo fixer/toner solutions thing.
Photo toning (wiki link provided by Manual) = Metal replacement toners replace the metallic silver, through a series of chemical reactions, with a ferrocyanide salt of a transition metal. Some metals, such as platinum or gold can protect the image. Others, such as iron (blue toner) or copper (red toner) may reduce the lifetime of the image
Metal replacement toning with gold alone results in a blue-black tone. It is often combined with a sepia toner to produce a more attractive orange-red tone. The archival Gold Protective Solution (GP-1) formula uses a 1% gold chloride stock solution with sodium or potassium thiocyanate.[7] It is sometimes used to split tone photographs previously toned in selenium for artistic purposes.[8]
So there is the potential to have as much as a 1% gold content & maybe even some Pt. – I don’t have this expectation – but the potential is there. So the “potential” is 1oz Au per 100 oz Ag :shock: (I have about 200 oz so I can only hope without expectation) 8) maybe
Concerning the thing about acetylides (I spent the better part of 4 or 5 hours researching this one) acetylene gas is a hydrogen carbon H2C2 triple bond gas (meaning the bond is straight line H-C-C-H)
The acetylide is formed by the pure acetylene gas giving up it’s 2 H element replacing them with the elements that it will react with the acetylene (Ag, Au, Cu, Hg, & Se) It will do this “most readally” with the salts in an aqueous solution with the readyness to form the acetylide desending in order of dry salt, molten metal, solid metal – meaning it takes more time for acetylene gas to form the acetylide with a solid piece of elemental Ag then with silver in an aqueous solution (silver nitrate)
The reason for this is that as a salt in an aqueous solution the Ag is more readaly avalible to brake the bond of the hydrogen in the acetylene & form the acetylide.
The reason that acetylene can & will form an acetylide with sold elemental Ag is that acetylene it’s self is a “weak” acide (weaker then water) & even here it takes the acetylene being in the form of a liquid to brake the Ag down to a salt so that the bond exchange can take place between the hydrogen & the Ag (the very reason you should always drain your hoses after turning off the valve on your acetylene tank – brass fittings = 70% copper + acetylene = copper acetylide.
The reality here is that if acetylene was of any real concern when working with ether sold or molten Ag, Au, or Cu they would not be using brass fittings in acetylene torch set ups & plumbers & heating & air guys would not be using the same acetylene turbo torch set up I have to solder & silver braze copper pipe & tubing & metal fabricators would not be using oxy/acetylene set ups to cut, braze & weld these metals in there every day work.
The biggest concern here would be not draining your hoses after turning the acetylene tank off & allowing the gas to sit in the regulator, hoses & torch head for long periods of time. Pure acetylene gas (no flame) & salts are another story – one that should be avioded at all cost.
So I gotta go with butcher on this one – I don’t think the sky is falling
Kurt
OK – I couldn’t wait till next week when I am going to take the bulk of this to a guy that has a furnace to melt it for me. What can I say – I just had to play. :lol:
So – I mixed a flux 50/50 borax/soda ash – weighed out 1 OzT of the Ag sulfide – mixed it 50/50 Ag sulfide/flux – put in crucible with rebar – stacked fire brick on three sides of crucible – directed flame on outside of crucible with acetylene turbo torch set up from open end of 3 sided fire brick enclosure – directed flame from propane turbo torch set up on Ag sulfide/flux/rebar inside crucible – turned crucible occasionally to get more uniform heat on outside of crucible from acetylene torch.
Took 45 min. to mix – heat/melt – pour – ending with nice 28.4 gram bar --- that’s about 92% of starting sulfide 8)
I included the rebar in the pic to show the reduction that takes place in the process
Kurt
So – I mixed a flux 50/50 borax/soda ash – weighed out 1 OzT of the Ag sulfide – mixed it 50/50 Ag sulfide/flux – put in crucible with rebar – stacked fire brick on three sides of crucible – directed flame on outside of crucible with acetylene turbo torch set up from open end of 3 sided fire brick enclosure – directed flame from propane turbo torch set up on Ag sulfide/flux/rebar inside crucible – turned crucible occasionally to get more uniform heat on outside of crucible from acetylene torch.
Took 45 min. to mix – heat/melt – pour – ending with nice 28.4 gram bar --- that’s about 92% of starting sulfide 8)
I included the rebar in the pic to show the reduction that takes place in the process
Kurt
Attachments
Thank you Kurt for a very informative post. Acetylene doesn't cause problems (make explosives) unless it is used with 'Hypo".
Acetylene precipitates metallic gold from solutions of gold chloride without danger. Thank you also for finding that 1% to which I have been referring. Doesn't matter though, goldsilverpro won that debate fair and square and I lost. The odds of having a canister with the 1% gold are very low, and shows just how out of date that I am concerning the processing of scrap silver. But to add something of value to this post: The use of re-bar in smelting to counteract the sulfur family is wise.
Do one thing different. Bend the re-bar into a jay shape on the bottom else you will slowly drill a hole in the bottom of the crucible. One can also hang the re-bar (bent into a jay shape) up side down on the lip of the crucible where the point doesn't reach the bottom. Having the re-bar also helps stop boil over from the foaming.
Thank you again for showing every one that even though I was wrong (in today's reality), I was not totally crazy. :mrgreen:
Dr. Poe
Acetylene precipitates metallic gold from solutions of gold chloride without danger. Thank you also for finding that 1% to which I have been referring. Doesn't matter though, goldsilverpro won that debate fair and square and I lost. The odds of having a canister with the 1% gold are very low, and shows just how out of date that I am concerning the processing of scrap silver. But to add something of value to this post: The use of re-bar in smelting to counteract the sulfur family is wise.
Do one thing different. Bend the re-bar into a jay shape on the bottom else you will slowly drill a hole in the bottom of the crucible. One can also hang the re-bar (bent into a jay shape) up side down on the lip of the crucible where the point doesn't reach the bottom. Having the re-bar also helps stop boil over from the foaming.
Thank you again for showing every one that even though I was wrong (in today's reality), I was not totally crazy. :mrgreen:
Dr. Poe
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Anonymous
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Mostly likely true.I just see this entire thread going south again,and everyone getting off track again,when it seemed like it was smoothing out.I'll do some looking later and see what I can find.rusty said:
Kurt, great information, thanks for your sharing your study and posting your results, sounds from your figures you got a good conversion of silver from the chemistry in your melt, thanks again, we are all learning something.
I have read where acetylene gas sitting inside copper pipes with silver solder will build some crystals of acetyl ides inside of the pipe at the silver soldered joint, and copper lines or silver soldered piping and of course is not recommended when handling acetylene gas, I have always drained unused gases from the line to protect regulators, but never heard of any trouble with acetylene and brass, the valves on tanks as well as regulators are brass, and in my mind would be safe for the purpose, I would worry more about getting oils, or thread dope (with oils) around the fittings on my oxygen tanks, than I would brass fittings in a torch, or gauges.
As far as the chess player the country at the time was at war with communism and were most likely justified keeping out bad apples, even if they could play chess, I think they did not get all of that problem out of the country and now we are infiltrated with that type of thinking, long after the cold war, but what does this have to do with refining?
Lets just get back to helping each other recover and refine gold and forget all of this nonsense.
Nice hunk of silver.
I have read where acetylene gas sitting inside copper pipes with silver solder will build some crystals of acetyl ides inside of the pipe at the silver soldered joint, and copper lines or silver soldered piping and of course is not recommended when handling acetylene gas, I have always drained unused gases from the line to protect regulators, but never heard of any trouble with acetylene and brass, the valves on tanks as well as regulators are brass, and in my mind would be safe for the purpose, I would worry more about getting oils, or thread dope (with oils) around the fittings on my oxygen tanks, than I would brass fittings in a torch, or gauges.
As far as the chess player the country at the time was at war with communism and were most likely justified keeping out bad apples, even if they could play chess, I think they did not get all of that problem out of the country and now we are infiltrated with that type of thinking, long after the cold war, but what does this have to do with refining?
Lets just get back to helping each other recover and refine gold and forget all of this nonsense.
Nice hunk of silver.
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Considering my experience with the use of rebar, I think I'd recommend against the idea of bending. Not that it's of big concern, but the problem then becomes one of the bent piece being eroded at some point above the end. Should it detach, you then have a solid piece of steel that must be fished out of the crucible. Not fatal, but certainly worth avoiding if possible.Dr. Poe said:
I used more than once piece of rebar at a time, and avoided working the sharp end against the crucible. Didn't notice any particular problem with the tip piercing the crucible, nor did I notice much damage from the sharp point. I also exercised care, secure in the knowledge that there was a potential for problems.
Harold
Dr Poe – You posted – “Acetylene precipitates metallic gold from solutions of gold chloride without danger.” --- Can you back that up with some real data??? I ask because in my research Au is listed as one of the metals that will form an acetylide. Wiki says that “some” acetylides are explosive – so evidently not all aceytlides are explosive. Copper acetylide (like siliver acetylide) is VARY explosive – in fact Cu acetylide is more sensitive to explosion then Ag acetylide & Cu acetylide is made by precipitating Cu acetylide from a copper (1) chloride solution.
In my research – Au is listed as one of the metals that will form an acetylide & it was listed with the other metals that are explosive in nature as an acetylide.
Here is the info I found in my research --- The hydrogen atoms in acetylene can be replaced by metallic elements to form acetylides--e.g., acetylides of silver, copper, or sodium. The acetylides of silver, copper, mercury, and gold are detonated by heat, friction, or shock.
Please Dr Poe – If you have info suggesting that acetylene can be used to precipitate gold from a solution “without danger” – post the step by step instruction for doing so – or it could result in someone dead &/or very seriously injured. --- We get a lot of people on this forum that are new to all of this & completely unaware of some of the dangers &/or have had their head filled with a bunch of garbage floating around out there on the net.
Kurt
In my research – Au is listed as one of the metals that will form an acetylide & it was listed with the other metals that are explosive in nature as an acetylide.
Here is the info I found in my research --- The hydrogen atoms in acetylene can be replaced by metallic elements to form acetylides--e.g., acetylides of silver, copper, or sodium. The acetylides of silver, copper, mercury, and gold are detonated by heat, friction, or shock.
Please Dr Poe – If you have info suggesting that acetylene can be used to precipitate gold from a solution “without danger” – post the step by step instruction for doing so – or it could result in someone dead &/or very seriously injured. --- We get a lot of people on this forum that are new to all of this & completely unaware of some of the dangers &/or have had their head filled with a bunch of garbage floating around out there on the net.
Kurt
pH?
I think a thanks to Manual is in order here for being the one to point out that there is even a danger in employing acetylene in refining metals. --- Without his pointing that out in the first place I certainly would have never guessed such a thing & the journey of researching it has taken me on “very” informative & educational journey to say the least.
Thank You Manual :!: :!: :!:
Here is a “bit” more of what I found in my research --------
Copper(I) acetylide, or cuprous acetylide, is an inorganic chemical compound with the formula Cu2C2. It is a heat and shock sensitive high explosive, more sensitive than silver acetylide[citation needed]. It is a metal acetylide. It is similar to silver acetylide and calcium carbide, though it is not called carbide in literature. Though not practically useful due to high sensitivity and reactivity towards water[citation needed], it is interesting as a curiosity because it is one of the very few explosives that do not liberate any gaseous products upon detonation.
Copper acetylide can be prepared by passing acetylene gas through copper(I) chloride solution in presence of ammonia:
C2H2 + 2CuCl → Cu2C2 + 2HCl
The reaction product is a reddish precipitate. The reaction is used as a test for acetylene.
Copper acetylide can form inside pipes made of copper or an alloy with high copper content, which may result in violent explosion.[1] This was found to be the cause of explosions in acetylene plants, and led to abandonment of copper as a construction material in such plants.[2] Copper catalysts used in petrochemistry can also possess a degree of risk under certain conditions.[3]
The conclusion to all of this is that acetylides ( “some” of which are “very” explosive) can most certainly be formed by employing pure acetylene gas with many of the metals we encounter in refining. However – in order for the acetylides to be formed – the metals need to be in a solvent state (aqueous solution) – They can also be formed if these metals are in a dry state (dry salt or the elemental metal)
However this only occurs due to the fact that acetylene it’s self is a weak acid (very weak – weaker then water) thereby allowing the acetylene to be it’s own vehicle to make the salt (aqueous) to form the acetylide.
Being such a weak acid it would take a considerable amount of time of exposure of pure acetylene gas to the metals concerned here to form the acetylide in any amount that would pose a problem in using an acetylene torch for melting these metals. Is it possible? Yes – but “very” unlikely. – you would have to have a torch blow out & allow the pure acetylene gas to be exposed to the metal for a very long time to form enough acetylide to pose a danger.
Kurt
Thank You Manual :!: :!: :!:
Here is a “bit” more of what I found in my research --------
Copper(I) acetylide, or cuprous acetylide, is an inorganic chemical compound with the formula Cu2C2. It is a heat and shock sensitive high explosive, more sensitive than silver acetylide[citation needed]. It is a metal acetylide. It is similar to silver acetylide and calcium carbide, though it is not called carbide in literature. Though not practically useful due to high sensitivity and reactivity towards water[citation needed], it is interesting as a curiosity because it is one of the very few explosives that do not liberate any gaseous products upon detonation.
Copper acetylide can be prepared by passing acetylene gas through copper(I) chloride solution in presence of ammonia:
C2H2 + 2CuCl → Cu2C2 + 2HCl
The reaction product is a reddish precipitate. The reaction is used as a test for acetylene.
Copper acetylide can form inside pipes made of copper or an alloy with high copper content, which may result in violent explosion.[1] This was found to be the cause of explosions in acetylene plants, and led to abandonment of copper as a construction material in such plants.[2] Copper catalysts used in petrochemistry can also possess a degree of risk under certain conditions.[3]
The conclusion to all of this is that acetylides ( “some” of which are “very” explosive) can most certainly be formed by employing pure acetylene gas with many of the metals we encounter in refining. However – in order for the acetylides to be formed – the metals need to be in a solvent state (aqueous solution) – They can also be formed if these metals are in a dry state (dry salt or the elemental metal)
However this only occurs due to the fact that acetylene it’s self is a weak acid (very weak – weaker then water) thereby allowing the acetylene to be it’s own vehicle to make the salt (aqueous) to form the acetylide.
Being such a weak acid it would take a considerable amount of time of exposure of pure acetylene gas to the metals concerned here to form the acetylide in any amount that would pose a problem in using an acetylene torch for melting these metals. Is it possible? Yes – but “very” unlikely. – you would have to have a torch blow out & allow the pure acetylene gas to be exposed to the metal for a very long time to form enough acetylide to pose a danger.
Kurt
:shock:kurt said:
Oh No, That was just a simple fact. I don't recommend that to anyone! The statement is true with pure HAuCl4 but what if the gold comes from an ore. And what if that ore occurred with natural sodium thiosulfate (which happens a lot!).
No, No! Forgive me for even mentioning it. I think maybe some people even produce sodium thiosulfate in their sweat.
There's no argument here as if someone did use acetylene to reduce gold as a habit, eventually they would probably blow themselves up. :shock:
I still prefer to hang the bar on the side where the tip misses touching the bottom. Where the problem of drilling has occurred with me was with the very large crucibles where three or four feet of rebar was used. Those crucibles cost over $500 each.Harold_V said:
A five inch thick (approximate) bottom was bored by the rebar 1 1/2 inches deep.
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I heartily endorse the hanging of the rebar from the lip of the crucible, although it does limit its useful life.
I used small crucibles (#8), so the overall length of the scrap metal in use was relatively small. I can see where a long piece of #8 or greater could prove to be quite a load. Largest I used was only #6.
A comment on crucible size.
While a #8 sounds pretty small, in the scheme of things, it was an excellent match for the size of operation I ran. I could pour 200 oz. anodes with ease, and a full crucible of cement silver yielded a button that was a perfect size to load in the crucible. My recovered silver, both from silver nitrate and from silver chloride, was melted and fluxed, then poured to a cone mold. The resulting buttons were re-melted and poured as ingots after chipping all of the slag. Any sulfide layers that may result were always rerun in the furnace, along with some scrap steel to recover any traces of values that may be entrapped in the sulfide layer.
Harold
I used small crucibles (#8), so the overall length of the scrap metal in use was relatively small. I can see where a long piece of #8 or greater could prove to be quite a load. Largest I used was only #6.
A comment on crucible size.
While a #8 sounds pretty small, in the scheme of things, it was an excellent match for the size of operation I ran. I could pour 200 oz. anodes with ease, and a full crucible of cement silver yielded a button that was a perfect size to load in the crucible. My recovered silver, both from silver nitrate and from silver chloride, was melted and fluxed, then poured to a cone mold. The resulting buttons were re-melted and poured as ingots after chipping all of the slag. Any sulfide layers that may result were always rerun in the furnace, along with some scrap steel to recover any traces of values that may be entrapped in the sulfide layer.
Harold
steyr223
Well-known member
Wow l love it
Dr. Poe did u say 3/4 of an ounce of gold
From a single pc
was this at lab grade or at home grade
I mean ,you know, you weren't pulling 1g of gold
From a 55gal drum of gold chloride in your garage ....
Or were you. :lol:
Thanks steyr223
Dr. Poe did u say 3/4 of an ounce of gold
From a single pc
was this at lab grade or at home grade
I mean ,you know, you weren't pulling 1g of gold
From a 55gal drum of gold chloride in your garage ....
Or were you. :lol:
Thanks steyr223
