Mic ?
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My opinion?
A question of conscience. What mic (or leavemealone, or Johnnie, or marianealice) has done is not illegal, not as far as I can see. He clearly disclosed what he's selling.
The problem is, there's no shortage of misinformed people, who don't understand what they've read----or they're greedy and hope to capitalize on the "ignorance" of the guy melting pins.
It's a moral call. He can sell his pins the way he's selling them. The question is------should he?
The best way to come to conclusions when you are in doubt is to reverse the circumstances involved. Become the winner/victim of the situation. When you finally understand what has transpired, will you be pleased with the results? If you wouldn't like buying such material, assuming you do have a conscience, and assuming you really don't want to take advantage of others, they wouldn't be sold as they're being sold.
Harold
A question of conscience. What mic (or leavemealone, or Johnnie, or marianealice) has done is not illegal, not as far as I can see. He clearly disclosed what he's selling.
The problem is, there's no shortage of misinformed people, who don't understand what they've read----or they're greedy and hope to capitalize on the "ignorance" of the guy melting pins.
It's a moral call. He can sell his pins the way he's selling them. The question is------should he?
The best way to come to conclusions when you are in doubt is to reverse the circumstances involved. Become the winner/victim of the situation. When you finally understand what has transpired, will you be pleased with the results? If you wouldn't like buying such material, assuming you do have a conscience, and assuming you really don't want to take advantage of others, they wouldn't be sold as they're being sold.
Harold
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Don't think so. The gold content could be a few percentage points and not be troublesome (they aren't even close to 1%). The real problem with the alloy is the presence of other base metals, which quickly foul the electrolyte of a copper cell. That's not to say they can't be parted, for they can. It's just not as efficient as if the copper was highly predominant as compared to other base metals (98% or better).rusty said:
Harold
rusty
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The educated man has the power to make sound decisions when buying precious metals, Ms. C.M. Hoke made this possible when she published her book "Testing Precious Metals Wastes" in 1946 written in layman's terms.
Thanks to the many forum members who made donations to purchase this book and my efforts to digitize, her book has been available for several years at no cost for those willing to seek it out.
In recent times even large nations have been taken in with counterfeit gold trade bars, I myself would never purchase gold without being able to perform appropriate tests, even those as simple of which Ms. Hoke has outlined in her book.
The GRF forum has grown to the point of having many thousands of members willingly sharing in their knowledge, we can take some responsibility for educating the common man regardless of age, color or race. Is it our responsibility to judge his/her morals.
I find little humor in reading of fools buying swamp land and quickly turn the page to a more news worthy story.
The forum agenda is to teach not POLICE.
When I was only a lad my father advised me not to fornicate with those of infirm mind.
Thanks to the many forum members who made donations to purchase this book and my efforts to digitize, her book has been available for several years at no cost for those willing to seek it out.
In recent times even large nations have been taken in with counterfeit gold trade bars, I myself would never purchase gold without being able to perform appropriate tests, even those as simple of which Ms. Hoke has outlined in her book.
The GRF forum has grown to the point of having many thousands of members willingly sharing in their knowledge, we can take some responsibility for educating the common man regardless of age, color or race. Is it our responsibility to judge his/her morals.
I find little humor in reading of fools buying swamp land and quickly turn the page to a more news worthy story.
The forum agenda is to teach not POLICE.
When I was only a lad my father advised me not to fornicate with those of infirm mind.
RikkiRicardo
Well-known member
Rusty a man a wisdom
Rikki
Rikki
NobleMetalWorks
Well-known member
I like the fact there are discussions of morality on this form. I think it has real value.
Considering how many refiners do rip people off, and how many people are looking for honest refiners. I really like the fact that we discuss, and LEARN about morality and how to conduct ourselves in this type of business. It's instruction some may need more than others, it's learning how to behave. It's setting standards that hopefully most people will follow. Also people whom we deal with, our potential customers, read these posts as well. If we conduct ourselves in a way that is a cut above all other refiners, then we will gain the trust of people looking for those of us that do live by a code of ethics and/or morals. It elevates the status of any refiner on this forum just by association. So while we are learning HOW to process and refine, we are also learning HOW to conduct ourselves in a way that the larger refineries do not. It's what separates those of us that are small operations, from those larger.
Here is the really sad part in all of this. I truly believe that most large refineries will rip you off if given the chance. If you do not represent your melt, you are almost guaranteed to loose more than what is normal. That type of behavior by a large refinery, while upsetting and wrong, in no way compares to selling gold drops of melted pins.
And yet, not even large refiners sell material like this.
To be totally honest, I don't even like the fact there is a member, or ex-member, on this forum that is stating his/her behavior should be acceptable just because they are describing what they are selling correctly. If one of my customers came to this board, and read this post and specifically anything that states this kind of action is acceptable, they very well might get it in their head that there is a percentage of people who operate in the gray area in the same way.
Mic, I hope you do well in your life. I am not posting this as an attack on your personally, I am only referring to the subject matter and not anything you may or may not have done or sold. I have nothing against you personally.
I am big on benchmarking. Take a business or person who is at the top of their game, who does things better than you do. Then use them as a marker, as your goal, try to be similar and then try to exceed if possible. There is someone I have modeled my own business morality after, on this forum. And it has served me very well indeed. :mrgreen:
Scott
Considering how many refiners do rip people off, and how many people are looking for honest refiners. I really like the fact that we discuss, and LEARN about morality and how to conduct ourselves in this type of business. It's instruction some may need more than others, it's learning how to behave. It's setting standards that hopefully most people will follow. Also people whom we deal with, our potential customers, read these posts as well. If we conduct ourselves in a way that is a cut above all other refiners, then we will gain the trust of people looking for those of us that do live by a code of ethics and/or morals. It elevates the status of any refiner on this forum just by association. So while we are learning HOW to process and refine, we are also learning HOW to conduct ourselves in a way that the larger refineries do not. It's what separates those of us that are small operations, from those larger.
Here is the really sad part in all of this. I truly believe that most large refineries will rip you off if given the chance. If you do not represent your melt, you are almost guaranteed to loose more than what is normal. That type of behavior by a large refinery, while upsetting and wrong, in no way compares to selling gold drops of melted pins.
And yet, not even large refiners sell material like this.
To be totally honest, I don't even like the fact there is a member, or ex-member, on this forum that is stating his/her behavior should be acceptable just because they are describing what they are selling correctly. If one of my customers came to this board, and read this post and specifically anything that states this kind of action is acceptable, they very well might get it in their head that there is a percentage of people who operate in the gray area in the same way.
Mic, I hope you do well in your life. I am not posting this as an attack on your personally, I am only referring to the subject matter and not anything you may or may not have done or sold. I have nothing against you personally.
I am big on benchmarking. Take a business or person who is at the top of their game, who does things better than you do. Then use them as a marker, as your goal, try to be similar and then try to exceed if possible. There is someone I have modeled my own business morality after, on this forum. And it has served me very well indeed. :mrgreen:
Scott
qst42know
Well-known member
Two issues stand out among the completed auctions that bother me.
Absurd "buy it now" prices imply a value that doesn't exist.
To my knowledge the unit of measure "troy ounce" is reserved for precious metals only. To sell brass by the troy ounce is a misrepresentation.
Sucker fishing does appear profitable but at what cost?
Absurd "buy it now" prices imply a value that doesn't exist.
To my knowledge the unit of measure "troy ounce" is reserved for precious metals only. To sell brass by the troy ounce is a misrepresentation.
Sucker fishing does appear profitable but at what cost?
ericrm
Well-known member
at the cost that they will learn and stop buyingqst42know said:
... witch is basicaly a part of the process we all got thru at some time in our buying/selling life...edit: they will learn and join a forum,tell all theyr friend the truth about ebay, shor, magic apearing gold, how to test to make sure there is gold, how to leach ,how to separate ... i wonder why i have this dejas vu............
2edit: when there is no lie i dont care ,f.g lier is something else ,dont take me wrong, its ok to say theyr is "some" gold.it is not ok to say sell your house to be rich, you will get 20g by lbs from my pci slot melted pins.........
Geo
Well-known member
its the mass hysteria of get rich quick, pie in the sky society the world has found itself. a fool and his money are soon parted.anyone can find an object that is associated with value even if the object is not valuable in itself, people will see values where none exist.its the perceived value thats hooks people and makes them spend money foolishly. if you had a trusting, but mentally challenged neighbor who wanted to buy your lawn mower and offered you 10 times what it was worth, would you accept his offer? if you do, that doesnt make the neighbor foolish because he doesnt know better and it doesnt make you dishonest because he offered. but it does show a lack of morals because even though he didnt know better, you did. you would have taken advantage of that person just the same as offering something virtually worthless for sale but including things in the pitch that would lead a person that didnt understand to believe it was indeed worth something. of coarse it can be made into jewelry. any metal and even non-metal can be made into jewelry.
im sorry about the rant, but i struggle so hard to recover the values from the same material. it irritates me to see people spend so much money on so little value.
im sorry about the rant, but i struggle so hard to recover the values from the same material. it irritates me to see people spend so much money on so little value.
In my opinion this discussion serves no purpose, and divides the forum. It has me wanting to pack my bags.
I personally do not know Mic, and did not care about him, until now.
It seems to me that he left the forum behind to do his own thing, to insulate himself from others here. Only to be drawn back by words that should not have been spoken here in the first place. I have a real problem with people using this venue to take pot shots whenever they are feeling froggy. :evil:
He is following feebay rules, he has 100% positive feedback, he accurately describes his items. Who are we to judge?
Have any of us ever sold something, and got paid too much money? Think hard. I sold an window A/C unit the other day, I told the guy to "make me an offer" he said $150.00. I would have taken $125.00 am I bad also? I constantly hear people here talking about selling things like fingers on feebay because they can get more for them there. Is that also wrong? I have a feeling I just ticked off a bunch of you, and I am not sorry. Stop the pile on. A fool and his money are soon parted. Just in case you are wondering, Yes, I have been the fool PLENTY of times.
edit (missed a key word)
I personally do not know Mic, and did not care about him, until now.
It seems to me that he left the forum behind to do his own thing, to insulate himself from others here. Only to be drawn back by words that should not have been spoken here in the first place. I have a real problem with people using this venue to take pot shots whenever they are feeling froggy. :evil:
He is following feebay rules, he has 100% positive feedback, he accurately describes his items. Who are we to judge?
Have any of us ever sold something, and got paid too much money? Think hard. I sold an window A/C unit the other day, I told the guy to "make me an offer" he said $150.00. I would have taken $125.00 am I bad also? I constantly hear people here talking about selling things like fingers on feebay because they can get more for them there. Is that also wrong? I have a feeling I just ticked off a bunch of you, and I am not sorry. Stop the pile on. A fool and his money are soon parted. Just in case you are wondering, Yes, I have been the fool PLENTY of times.
edit (missed a key word)
This entire post is a conundrum, I'm not saying that what mic is doing is right or wrong, (I have personally thought about doing this, but I could not live with myself if I did). Take for instance the "infamous list" and "1g per pentium pro", how many people on this forum know there is only 0.3-0.45g per PP, but still sell them on ebay for $25-$30 or more a piece??? Is that in any way different?
I know I don't have the camaraderie here, like that of many of the more prominent members have, but who is anyone here to judge how man takes care of his family. It seems mic is just trying to pay his bills and take care of his family (I could be wrong), while building a business. How is it different then any other business, product, supply, demand?
Whether or not anyone agrees with this is truly irreverent, business is business, no matter who feels it is moral or not. Palladium recently made a post (within the last 3-4 months) about acid costs, and Harold commented how the chemical industry is screwing most people on the "true" cost of chemicals. Is that immoral that a company can sell nitric at $3/gal but a retail outfit will sell it for $52/2.2L? Is it right that General Motors can build a car for $3000, but a car dealership sells it $12,000? And lets not even get started on the cost of gas!
Ethics and Values is a hard lined subject that is truly a matter of perception and personal believe, much like religion, what is right to one is not necessarily right to another. Leave moral judgment to your own deity, they can decide when we die, we are all here to refine and help each other improve on those skills.
Has mic in anyway taken advantage of anyone on this forum with his ebay listings? I think not, we all know better, right? It is all a matter of perception combined with education, I used to be ignorant enough to pay $56 for 2.2L of nitric, but after a little education and research I'm that much wiser!
Big business exploits everyone of us every day, and we take it with no qualms, if mic can sleep at night let the man alone to live his life!
I don't normally interject my opinion on political topics, but this is my $1.05.
I know I don't have the camaraderie here, like that of many of the more prominent members have, but who is anyone here to judge how man takes care of his family. It seems mic is just trying to pay his bills and take care of his family (I could be wrong), while building a business. How is it different then any other business, product, supply, demand?
Whether or not anyone agrees with this is truly irreverent, business is business, no matter who feels it is moral or not. Palladium recently made a post (within the last 3-4 months) about acid costs, and Harold commented how the chemical industry is screwing most people on the "true" cost of chemicals. Is that immoral that a company can sell nitric at $3/gal but a retail outfit will sell it for $52/2.2L? Is it right that General Motors can build a car for $3000, but a car dealership sells it $12,000? And lets not even get started on the cost of gas!
Ethics and Values is a hard lined subject that is truly a matter of perception and personal believe, much like religion, what is right to one is not necessarily right to another. Leave moral judgment to your own deity, they can decide when we die, we are all here to refine and help each other improve on those skills.
Has mic in anyway taken advantage of anyone on this forum with his ebay listings? I think not, we all know better, right? It is all a matter of perception combined with education, I used to be ignorant enough to pay $56 for 2.2L of nitric, but after a little education and research I'm that much wiser!
Big business exploits everyone of us every day, and we take it with no qualms, if mic can sleep at night let the man alone to live his life!
I don't normally interject my opinion on political topics, but this is my $1.05.
NobleMetalWorks
Well-known member
I posted in a new thread about the morality of eBay auctions in the hopes that we can maybe separate the personal reference to Mic.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=15953
Scott
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=15953
Scott
Geo
Well-known member
i do apologize if i seem to come "unhinged" about this. i agree each person is responsible for their own moral compass. do keep on mind that no member is obligated to follow any guidelines here other than the rules of the forum. that being said, there are members (im one) that feel obligated to try and set an example for new members so they will know that there is certain practices that are frowned upon. to turn a blind eye to bad behavior of this nature seeds the same bad behavior in people coming here to learn a new hobby or even a new trade. i wish Mic no ill will and hope he succeeds in whatever endeavor he embarks on.he was always willing to help when he could and even though i didnt know him personally any more than i know any one of you,i did feel a kinship with him because we belong to the same great organization, the GRF.it feels kind of like some kind of betrayal of the standards some of us try to hold ourselves.
rusty
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A beautiful young woman 15 years of age recently committed suicide here in Canada over cyber-bullying , her name was Amanda Todd, someone posted an anonymous remark on her memorial website, the remark is much to rude to repeat.
Some woman from Alberta tracked his IP number down once she learned who he was reported the poster to his employer who promptly fired him. I do not agree with the rude post this fellow made nor do I approve of the woman's vigilante behavior.
The whole incident has taken on a domino effect.
The woman from Ab is now crying wolf because she is being verbally attacked for her actions, the guy lost his job and possibly his family. I have no feelings for either. Just saying is all.
May Amanda rest in peace, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Amanda_Todd
Some woman from Alberta tracked his IP number down once she learned who he was reported the poster to his employer who promptly fired him. I do not agree with the rude post this fellow made nor do I approve of the woman's vigilante behavior.
The whole incident has taken on a domino effect.
The woman from Ab is now crying wolf because she is being verbally attacked for her actions, the guy lost his job and possibly his family. I have no feelings for either. Just saying is all.
May Amanda rest in peace, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Amanda_Todd
its-all-a-lie
Well-known member
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOHXGNx-E7E&feature=channel&list=UL
rusty said:
its-all-a-lie
Well-known member
cnbarr said:
Well said.
Harold_V said:
I under lined the part in the above quote from Harold that I would like to comment on.
I have a standard by which I try to conduct my own life on in my day to day life - I try my very best to "not" lie, cheat. steal, decieve or minipulate in my day to day dealing with people - Why? --- because I don't like it when people do such things to me --- so why in the world would I do such things to others if I don't like it done to me.
I like the way John Wayne put it in the movie The Shootest --- "I wont be wronged, I wont be insulted & I wont be layed a hand on - I don't do these thing to other people & I require the same from them
Kurt
Ocean
Well-known member
I want to chime in on the "taking advantage of" comments I've seen on many posts on this forum, not specifically this thread.
An item is worth what someone will pay for it, or sell it for.
When MANY of the people here say "ripped off" when discussing sale and purchase prices, I feel that they are out of touch with what capitalism and the free market approach is.
If I can sell some material for $X to one buyer, and $2X to another, why have I ripped anyone off?
DON'T BUY IT IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH!
It's not ripping someone off, it is called trying to maximize profit. Simple business concept.
Rant over. Thanks for a fabulous forum! :lol:
An item is worth what someone will pay for it, or sell it for.
When MANY of the people here say "ripped off" when discussing sale and purchase prices, I feel that they are out of touch with what capitalism and the free market approach is.
If I can sell some material for $X to one buyer, and $2X to another, why have I ripped anyone off?
DON'T BUY IT IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH!
It's not ripping someone off, it is called trying to maximize profit. Simple business concept.
Rant over. Thanks for a fabulous forum! :lol:
Geo
Well-known member
there is nothing wrong with capitalism. a person should be entitled to as much profit as the market will allow. this is a matter of misleading and misrepresentation. if both party are on equal standing as far as knowledge of the commodity, then the profit will be low because both parties know the worth beforehand. when dealing with the uninformed, the seller has the upper hand, thats why people can make more money selling on Ebay than the forum.would you sell on Ebay an item of unknown value to the common man using word play to gain the advantage, or would you sell on the forum where most people have a better understanding of an items worth with a clear conscience that if they do better than normal,then it was a good deal for them. its like stacking the deck in a poker game, the conclusion is a foregone certainty that you will come out ahead and some poor person is loosing on the deal.im not a hypocrite,i have never sold one thing on Ebay.i have an account and have 100% positive feedback because i pay when i buy and my money is good. i dont sell on Ebay because the only thing i deal with is related to what we do here. i have thousands of pounds of material and before i sell 1 ounce of it on Ebay, ill sell it all to someone on the forum that knows what its worth.
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