Muradic acid w/Carbon electrodes Hydrogen/Chlorine process

[Platdigger]

But wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the conductive base?

I mean one of the great things about the carbon base is that the conection (electrically) can be made outside of the container.

Wouldn't this insulate the thinner piece of carbon electrically?
Randy

 

[Anonymous]

this would just fill in the spaces were the fluid is leaking through so the carbon would still be conductive, ie saturate from the nonworking surface
leaving the surface that contacts the hcl exposed. connections would still be the same.

I wonder if all of the carbon is porus, I could see me making a membrane cell to produce nitric by putting a layer of it between 2 electrodes of for example 5 volts then charge the plate with a lesser voltage like 1.5 to make the membrane to seperate the ions.

that is unless nitric atacks carbon which with my luck it will do vigorusly. :roll:

 

[NobleMetalsRecovery]

I'm testing out an entirely different idea for the plate. Top secret until I get results. Hopefully that will be tomorrow. I glued it up today, it will be ready for testing tomorrow.

 

[NobleMetalsRecovery]

I tried the experiment with another metal alloy for the anode, but it didn't work, I think it formed an non-conductive film on the surface.

 

[OMG]

I am testing a similar setup, except the material I am processing is black sand concentrates. I have a two cell setup, one half is the dissolving area, and the other half is the precipitating area. So my dissolving column is filled with the concentrates, HCl, H2O2, and salt water. The bottom of the column is a clay pot.
The precipitating area is filled with previously dissolved metals.
So the chlorine is removed from the dissolved metals in the precipitating area, and ends up bubbling at the anode in the dissolving area (the clay pot allows the Cl to pass). Essentially reusing the chlorine.
I am still in the testing phase, but when its complete I think it should work well.
To complete it fully, I will need to use a mercury cathode so that when the metals are pulled out of solution, the iron will not amalgamate, but everything else should. And since that majority of the metal dissolved will be iron, I think a mercury cathode would be the best bet to separate it out.
I don't like the idea of having to retort mercury to recover the values, so if anyone has a suggestion that would allow me to avoid it, please let me know.
I'll take some pics and post them when I get all the leaks sealed tomorrow.
I would also prefer a titanium anode, but I don't even know where to look for a plate of titanium.

 

[The Refiner49er]

OMG-

The cheapest place to get a piece of titanium is a metal recycler. They will usually sell as well as buy. I do business with a large recycler in Portland; if you can't locate what you need, let me know.

Your approach on recycling the chlorine is interesting. I plan on refining concentrates too, and am working on a design for an electrolytic column.

I'm not a chemist, but perhaps a strong magnet could capture the iron as it comes out of solution?

Good luck with your innovations!

When you get pics of this device, start a new thread!


John

 

[OMG]

Well, I had to rebuild. The carbon electrode degraded to dust pretty much. Now I'm trying a bunch of carpenters pencils leads to see how well they hold up. It's drying right now. Next weekend I'll go into town and try to get some titanium for the electrode.
honemaster, the particles of iron are so small that magnets don't exert enough force to pull them through the water.

 

[dallasgoldbug]

Hello all,
Sorry Ive been out of town taking care of a family emergency. Back now and ramping back up.


My final design came after about 10 prototypes mainly working out the leak, corrosion, and safety issues. I also experimented with different electrode material as well. I also build Hydrogen fuel cells and HHO cutting rigs, using stainless electrodes. Ill post photos of my latest unit if your interested. Im in the process of patenting the electrode design. You would be surprised how much I leveraged from my HHO cell designs.


Anyway back to the topic:
The unit you built reminds me of a past unit I built. Your design will work, but there are problems you will eventually run into.

1. If you look at the photo of my top anode, you will see it is totally sealed on the sides with RTV. The connection to the carbon is made with a stainless rod that runs down into the carbon disk through the top PCV cap.

The point of contact is where you will run into problems. Any metal/wire at the point of contact on the carbon will corrode quickly and eventually create an open if it is not sealed from the fumes.

The carbon is sealed at the sides and the column is filled up to and past the side carbon seal. At no point on the outside of the PVC cap can the carbon break the surface of the acid. This is very important. You want to keep the chlorine under the top surface of the acid. Keeping the carbon submerged will produce chlorine up to where you have it sealed off with RTV, therefor only producing chlorine up to that point, keeping it contained under the top surface.

If you just stick the anode into the solution you will allow the reaction to take place at the surface of the acid allowing corrosive fumes to escape. You will corrode everything around you thats metal, including your air conditioning vents. If your in a barn or shed, things will start falling off the walls due to the nail corroding through. Trust me on this one, Im still dealing with damage to my air vents.

2. Your design using the carbon as the entire bottom plate was the first design I tried. As you found out the carbon is porous and the acid will eventually find its way through. If you want to continue that design you may want to grab some paraffin wax at your local hobby shop. I used it for a while to quickly patch leaks. It works as long as your temp doesn't melt it.

Wax was safe to use due to it wont get dissolved into your solution.

Always put your unit in a larger container. This will allow you to contain leaks that may occur when your not around.

3. The carbon disks Im using are about 1" thick and will last about 4 months running 24/7.

The anode in my photo is actually 2 stacked on top of each other.

4. Using PVC as the reactor container, will eventually get brittle. Im finding the best is still glass, as if flexes with the heat. RTV makes an excellent seal when you use glass and you'll run into less problems.

5. You must use RTV or curable silicone. Epoxy, glue, liquid weld, etc. will be devolved, or will eventually leak.

6. I even tried running a coted wire designed to be submerged in solvents (its used primarily in the oil and gas industry) but the solution got into it at the point of contact to the cathode. IF this happens the current WILL NOT continue through the cathode. It will usually cause an open, and is a real pain to replace mid reaction. Do yourself a favor and buy a $10 glass drill bit and a glass vase/large pickle jar/glass 5gal water bottle, and slowly drill the small hole in the side/bottom for a wire to the carbon.

The best way is to put a 1/2" of rtv in the bottom of your container.

Let it cure.

Then place your carbon flat on top of the cured rtv.

Fill the remaining space around the carbon disk.

Let it cure.

After everything is cured, THEN drill the small hole in the side of the glass passing through the RTV, and straight into the disk (I go about 1" in)

Slide a wire/piece of wire hanger into the drilled hole (making sure to make a good connection to the disk)

Turn the container on the side and seal up the connection with some more RTV.

Your then good to go.


I will be selling the carbon disks on my website. I will have them posted this week. If I have the permission from this sites moderator I will post the URL.

I will be selling the 4"x1" disks shown, as well as larger 12"x1" ones.

Ill also post more detailed photos of my rigs if your interested. If you want particular photos just let me know.

 

[dallasgoldbug]

Hello Honemaster,

Sorry for the delay in responding to your earlier post.

As for cooling your column:
What I used when developing the cell was a variable dc power supply with a resistor inline along with two multimeter's. One for volts and other for amps. You want low volts hight amps for the best production.

Monitoring the meters will tell you if there is an open at your cathode, very helpful. You can also put a automotive light in the circuit, that will turn off if the circuit becomes open. I got tired of getting up and looking at the meters constantly. Just glancing occasionally to see if the light was on was much easier.

One thing you will notice is the amps will slowly increase over time. But this can be limited with putting something like the light in the circuit. Small neons work well to, just make sure you look at the power rating on the light so you don't blow it. Putting inline fuses as limiters are also a good idea JUST IN CASE it gets accidentally out of hand.

Yes Hydrogen is a problem.

A word of advise:
Always remember to turn the power off before removing the top anode.

If you don't you risk creating an arc as it lifts out of the liquid. That's all you need to ignite the gas. Keeping the column as full as possible helps to keep the hydrogen from getting trapped under the cap.

In the beginning I put a computer fan mounted about 5" away from the top of the column blowing air across the opening. Make sure its a magnet motor with no brushes that could ignite the gas.


Cooling methods:

I experimented with several cooling methods. Ive used aluminum heat syncs with server fans attached.

Next I used a second outer container with a circulating water ice bath.

Ive also experimented with mineral oil due to its non conductive characteristics.

Each worked well. Another method is to get an old refrigerator/small office refrigerator and put the entire unit inside. This is also a way to control the fumes by cutting a vent hole in the top and forcing the fumes out by fan.

lately ive been playing with thin aquarium tubing wrapped around the outside in a tight spiral from bottom to top. Pump ice water through it from an ice chest containing a pond pump.

An idea I haven't tried yet is to wrap it on the inside of the column. I would think this would effectively cool the liquid.

Look at water cooling systems for computers, you will find usable inexpensive products for temperature monitoring.

Creating a small app is something Ive been working on. It can monitor a temperature sensor powered through a USB port, and be set to alarm if the unit gets to a set temp. Combine that with an email or text message notification sent to your cell phone, could allow the user to remotely shut down the entire rig. Or if your really a tech geek like myself, set up a web cam to monitor it with a pda phone. The possibilities are endless.

:shock:

Im working on a new rig thats sealed at the top with the gas venting out a hose that passes through a bubbler I made out of a plastic water bottle.

This can be combined with an active charcoal filter to further filter the corrosive fumes. Ill post photos shortly.


I can be contacted if anyone has questions or help with their rigs.

Thanks Again
DallasGoldBug :wink:

 

[dallasgoldbug]

Here is a quick sketch, sorry scanner is out.

 

[dallasgoldbug]

:!: Another thing to keep in mind with your columns. You want the cathode as big as possible. The larger (more surface area) the better. Scoring the surface of it by scraping it on concrete is one way, another is to drill small holes or cut small grooves creating more surface area. Its not necessary especially if your running low on carbon.

:!: Tip: Keep a mason jar handy to keep broken or small pieces of carbon. You can use them to make an electrode by layering the bottom of a column with RTV and dropping the pieces in covering the bottom. Make sure they touch each other and the piece you have connected to the power.

:!: Tip: I mentioned in prior posts about keeping your anode as smooth as possible. A smooth surface makes it much easier to remove the copper that plates to it. I Use a razor blade to lift the edge of the copper. It usually peals off in one piece. If the surface is rough the copper has more of a foothold to the carbon and is more difficult to remove.

DallasGoldBug

 

[dallasgoldbug]

http://www.temperaturealert.com/product_p/tm-std30.htm

Check this out. Just stick it inside a plastic bag or coat it with silicone. Attach it to a usb extension cable and drop it in the reactor.

Logs it, sends you alerts when it hits target temp.

Not that expensive either.

I wonder if I can get an eval unit from them :wink:

 

[Harold_V]

I will be selling the carbon disks on my website. I will have them posted this week. If I have the permission from this sites moderator I will post the URL.

Our leader has provided a forum for that very purpose. Please post your link and a description in the Sale or Trade forum.

You might also consider including the link to your web site in your sig line.

Harold

 

[markqf1]

Well it's gotta be somewhere.

Mark

 

[Arcani]

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:41 am Post subject: Computer tempiture sensor

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.temperaturealert.co.....-std30.htm

Check this out. Just stick it inside a plastic bag or coat it with silicone. Attach it to a usb extension cable and drop it in the reactor.

Sweet link. Your tips have been great help to me and my playing with Saltwater/H202 gold stripping cell.
Also been playing with HHO tech and was hoping u could start a thread on that topic here.
:lol:

 

[Pawnbroker Bob]

Great stuff Dallas!

I have been watching this thread with great interest. I am going to build one of these for myself.

A buddy of mine is a master fabricator, I was talking with him last night and asked him if he had any scrap Ti lying around. Yes he does. =)

My brain went to work. I am shopping for the proper glass vessel and am planning a round glass tube with a round Ti plate cathode, On the underside of the plate I am going to heliarc some threaded Ti to attach a lead through the bottom of the glass vessel. All rtv'd in. Mounted to a base of plexiglass.

I had a great idea. For the anode I am going to rollout and heliarc some Ti to make a cup about the size of a large tuna can but 4in tall. My idea is that with a little inert ballast in the can or by the weight of the lead rod the cathode will float on the acid eliminating the need to constantaly monitor for evaporation.

What do you guys think?

Pawnbroker Bob

 

[dallasgoldbug]

HHO technology should be look at closely by the refining community.
It has many advantages that I would love to discuss.
Unfortunately I'm in the patent process stage and have to restrain my excitement.

Ive been working for many years on a prototype, and finally got everything to the point where its producing 2-3ltr of gas per/min all from a 12v motorcycle bat. The entire rig is about 1.5' tall. Its the unit I'm holding in the photo. My patent is not on the actual cell itself, thats been covered extensively. My work focuses on efficient electrode design.

Man, Im dying to post a video to youtube.

While I'm waiting, Im going to publish it through www.ip.com

If anyone has something they need to protect, but cant afford the patent, it's a great start. They provide a digital footprint establishing a date of submission that stands up in court, and best of all its only $200.
Ive always been hesitant to reveal my goods, even with signed NDA in hand. But its almost impossible not too when your trying to raise expansion capital from investors.

 

[lazersteve]

Dallas,

I'm very interested in the HHO technology. I'll try to find some time to check out your links.

Steve

 

[draftinu]

I too am impressed with this system. Good luck with the finishing details! Tim

 

[markqf1]

Very impressive!
Keep us up to date.

Thx,
Mark