My new HHO Torch

[stihl88]

I just wanted to show you guys/gals my homemade HHO Torch.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MGV1cR8WkE[/youtube]

I am yet to try and melt much anything yet but i did melt a piece of thick Platinum wire with ease

Hope you enjoy!


*EDIT*

Plans Added 22/1/11. I take no responsibility, these are not my plans, they are freely available on the Web. They are a great set of plans
however as with all things human they are not 100% perfect and their are some grammar mistakes and so forth so read through the plans thoroughly
and before rushing out to buy the materials write everything you will need before going out to purchase. As you can see, i ended up using Plexiglass for my HHO Generator instead of the PVC that was used in the plans, i also ended up using a type of rubber as my gaskets. I have only tapped one hole into my Plexiglass plate.

This will set you back quite a few hundred dollars if you decide to make one of these yourself (This includes Power Supply) personally i believe that you guys in the US have plenty of options on Ebay for purchasing ready made HHO Generators and should go down this route. I will eventually conduct some measurements to find out how many LPM my generator is producing and post the results here.

 

[HAuCl4]

Any chance to look at pictures of the assembly or plans/diagrams?. It looks VERY hot!. 8)

 

[rusty]

Any chance to look at pictures of the assembly or plans/diagrams?. It looks VERY hot!. 8)

Torch made from common brass fittings, the copper nozzle 0.60 from mig welder. The brass wool stuffed inside the brass pipe is a cheap back flash arrestor, any non ferrous wool that does not react with water or steam will do the same job.

I don't think the bubbler is necessary between the HHO cell and torch head using a flame arrestor other than doubling up on safety. Research tells me the bubbler is supposed to suppress unwanted electrolyte from entering your torch or engine.

The orange flame from the torch tells me it's not working.

In those youtube videos showing hydrogen output the visible vapour is steam blended with hydrogen, hydrogen is an invisible gas, these guys are allowing their cells to run way to hot.

My theory is that the electrolyte should be kept cool enough the keep steam out of the gas produced or at best reduced, remember for every ounce of water you loose your electrolyte is becoming saturated with unwanted ions with less water molecules coming into contact with the cells plates, decreasing the cells efficiency.

One of our earlier forum members had a good thread on this topic, I'll have to chase it down.

Nice work stihl88

 

[HAuCl4]

Do you think additional oxygen can be easily added to the stream to make an oxidizing flame?.

I'm thinking of building a small simple vertical, crucible-less zone refining rig (see link below) using 3-4 fine stream torches in a concentric arrangement, and an oxidizing flame would help burn out base metal impurities in the melt zone. (I think).

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=8910&p=84507#p84507

Very crude design at this stage is with a long gold rod/thick wire clamped at both ends and 3 torches mounted in an upwards moving donut at very slow speed, creating a thin melted (and oxidized) zone moving upwards, so that a pure crystal is left below, base metals and silver oxidize/stay in the top of melt zone. Something like this photo:

A poor's man zone refining rig, if you will. I wonder how fine can an artisan make gold in his garage. The rod would be initially 9999+ produced by chemical methods.

Any ideas for a simple implementation?. Comments?.

 

[rusty]

Do you think additional oxygen can be easily added to the stream to make an oxidizing flame?.

Complete combustion of hydrogen requires an oxygen to hydrogen ratio of 1 to 2, but not with the HHO torch shown in tihl88's video [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MGV1cR8WkE[/youtube]

You would require a bottle of compressed oxygen along with the proper torch and gauge set.

tihl88 says he has melted platinum wire with a naturally aspirated torch, if you want to melt larger lots use a larger hydrogen torch.

Natural gas, methane, propane and hydrogen are all good fuel gas's to use when melting platinum group metals, hydrogen is of special interest only because it can be easily generated using a dry cell at home. The fact that there is no cylinder rental offsets the cost of generating ones own hydrogen at home.

If I lived in the city and had my house and shop plumbed into natural gas this would certainly be my first choice, the Harris torch I have is designed to use methane, natural, hydrogen or propane. The torch has a special mixing chamber to efficiently mix oxygen and the fuel gas of ones choice.



Unrelated, I've owned this Harris for 30 years and used it to cut scrap, one disadvantage of using oxy/propane is that you use a lot more oxygen with the combination of gas's had you used acetylene where the ratio of oxygen is lower to obtain the same preheat temperature before burning.

When cutting ( burning ) steel the pure oxygen is actually burning the metal like when a meteorite enters the earth's oxygen rich atmosphere.

Here's a question not most of you are going to know the answer to. If you had a project that had to be contracted out to a welding shop that required a lot of cutting. Shop A used oxy/propane and Shop B uses oxy/acetylene which shop would you hire for the job.

Answer - Shop B, acetylene pre heats the burning zone much faster allowing for quicker entry into the burn zone, leave less slag behind and what is left is easily chipped away, while propane is totally the opposite taking much longer to pre heat before burning can commence, lots of slag left behind which is difficult to remove and generally requires grinding before welding.

If your lucky to have shops that have laser or water jet these would be preferred over Shop A and B, but the shops that usually have these specialised cutting machine usually only do custom cutting., so your still looking for a welding shop to complete that rush project and get it online ASP.

A short youtube video cutting some thick steel using oxy/hydrogen, you will note that the cnc machine made several passes preheating the intended cut zone, then the cutting head stopped to super heat the area where the cut would begin. You see the flame from the torch doing what looks like a flame out. The operator is testing the pre heat zone with pure oxygen and the metal is not yet hot enough to ignite.

After watching this video, laser and water jet far superior.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p99iTJvdxX4[/youtube]

 

[stihl88]

I will be editing my first post and add some plans of the HHO generator.

Rusty,
You most certainly do need a Bubbler, not only can it neutralize excess electrolyte waste gases (Simply add vinegar to the bubbler) but it also acts as a secondary flash back arrestor. I tried the whole bronze wool thing in my torch head which was pre-wetted but due to a poor design i ended up getting a flashback to my bubbler which blew the crap out of the bubbler. The explosion was so loud that my right ear was ringing/fuzzing for a few days to the point i thought i blew my ear drum, their was plastic shrapnel scattered throughout the room but fortunately the bubbler prevented the flame from sucking into the HHO Generator because if it did it's possible i may not be writing this today. Hydrogen is one of the most dangerous gases Ive worked with.

Ive since re-designed my whole torch and bubbler setup and I'm quite happy with the way it is running now. In re designing the bubbler i have a much more efficient and smooth generation of HHO now and my torch is running smooth as you can see in the Youtube video.


BTW, I would go with shop C and get them to cut my steel with a Plasma cutter :mrgreen: but that depends of course on what material is being cut, the thickness of the material and if minimal heat disturbance is required.

 

[Oz]

Do you think additional oxygen can be easily added to the stream to make an oxidizing flame?

If you are not separating your oxygen and hydrogen when you are generating it, but using it in the ratio that it is produced in 2:1 hydrogen/oxygen (browns gas), you will find it is an oxidizing flame. Typically hydrogen torches are operated at even 5:1 to be sure of a reducing flame.

I greatly agree with stihl88 that hydrogen gas is nothing to trifle with, explosions are a great risk if you do not thoroughly know what you are doing.

I look forward to your pictures and plans stihl88.

 

[stihl88]

Thanks OZ,

Ive added some pictures and the plans in my first post.

Torch head Pictures Below

-The torch head has been constructed using a 0.6mm Mig Tip which has a 6mm cut thread.
This is screwed into a Brass Air Nozzle which i have tapped to 6mm to accept the Mig Tip.

-Then, cut a length of Aluminium pipe or Brass if you can find the right size and cut a thread to accept the Brass Air Nozzle.
Most compressed air fittings use a BSP thread gauge so make sure you have those right taps and dies, i was fortunate
enough to have a slightly over-sized thread and die and i used these on all my fittings to re cut the thread to my tap and die size.

-Up the other end of the Aluminium pipe i have added a Flow valve, this is to turn off the flame or adjust the flame size but i would recommend
adjusting the flame size by adjusting you power supply, this will avoid excess power usage and most importantly pressure build up in the HHO Generator.

-On the end of the Flow valve is a 1/4" Barbed Air fitting, then i use clear PVC hose which comes from the Bubbler.

-Every nozzle/thread has Teflon tape applied.

-Also, I have squeezed an aquarium bubbler into the Aluminium pipe to help eliminate the chance of a backfire into the bubbler, the bubbler also has an aquarium air bubbler.

Regards

Stihl88

 

[rusty]

stihl88 nice job on the dry cell and torch, thanks for posting the plans.

From page 15 in the plans you posted.

Section titled: Capacitive current limiting, the bridge rectifier used in that circuit can be found inside a discarded kitchen microwave. Also there is a large AC capacitor inside the microwave but not sure of the rating. The caps are sure to vary from the many oven sizes available so we may find one suitable.

I'm not clear on the electrolyte, do you circulate new or is the cell statically filled each time you use it.

Can hardly wait to build my second hydrogen cell, at least this time I'll have some clue as to what I'm making.

I can relate to your bubbeler blowing up, when I was around 12 years old sat at the kitchen table with a mayonnaise jar full of salt water with some aluminium strips submerged and attached to some wire going through some holes in the lid.

Had an eye dropper attached to some surgical hose, powered with my old train transformer, when I put a lit match the the eye dropper the lid blew off the jar.

My father was laying in bed reading the evening paper, asked me asking what I was up to now. Could only answer, nothing. My only regret is not having studied or pursued a higher education in science.

Life was grand, my father and I both batching it since I was 8 years old.

Regards
G

 

[stihl88]

Not too sure about all that current limiting stuff, i know what they are saying but i haven't a need to use a current limiter yet.
The PWM supply seems to be the way to go.

The Electrolyte I'm using is filled each time at this stage, i believe in the plans that that secondary fitting in the Plexiglass is for a circulating Electrolyte design. When you have a look on Youtube you will see a lot of videos using those windscreen washer refill bottles, that is how they circulate the electrolyte solution and they also double it up as a bubbler at the same time.

The beauty about making a Dry Cell like this is that you aren't wasting energy as much as fully submerged cells, the problem with the fully submerged cells is that electricity flows through the plates on their outside edge as well as through the flattest edge, well the electricity that flows through the outside edges is wasted and generally produces minimal hydrogen in the process.

Good luck with the build!

Sounds like you had fun with your Dad. My brother and i had a blessed upbringing, Dad would let us set off homemade bombs and all sorts of things- I shot my first rifle when i was a 3.5 yo which i can clearly remember. He just bought himself a D7 High track Dozer and I'm going to take the wife up to the farm tomorrow and were both going to have a go on the Dozer :mrgreen:

 

[rusty]

Wow your going to love that D7 High track, I had a D4D with D6 undercarriage, 30" LPG pads, hand clutch with trans brake and a Johnson bar no comparison for noise or comfort and ease of operation.

Hope your dad ordered the sound proof cab for his new machine, air conditioning and stereo. On one of the jobs I was working I got to try out a high track it was so sad that I had to return to my own machine coughing and choking on dust. Sometimes reversing the fan blades just does not do much.

The worst crawler I ever run was a Terex 8230 with a screaming Jimmy , the fan and radiator mounted directly behind the operators seat. Another of life's mysteries.

Enjoy your day out, wish I were there, I love the sound of a cat working. If you take your camera do a short video. I would enjoy seeing the D7 put some sound on it.

Back to the HHO torch I have a large rose bud for my Victor and got to looking around in youtube to see if any of the fellows had the same idea of making a miniaturised bud to use on the dry cell. When I came across this video.

It looks like he is using an ordinary propane torch from a disposable bottle. Not quite what I had in mind, but thought I would share the free video with you all.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z36DQlxbTto&feature=related[/youtube]

regards
G

 

[HAuCl4]

Thanks for the pics and descriptions stihl and rusty.

Thinking now that electric vertical tube furnace would be better and safer for my application.

I agree that having much HHO mixed, ready to ignite, can get dangerous, in all but the smallest applications.

Is there a simple HHO cell setup that allows for the gases to remain separate till the very end when they would be mixed and burned inmediately at the torch tip. I.e. Two hoses, one for H2 and one for O2.

I believe that would be safer??

 

[rusty]

Thanks for the pics and descriptions stihl and rusty.

Thinking now that electric vertical tube furnace would be better and safer for my application.

I agree that having much HHO mixed, ready to ignite, can get dangerous, in all but the smallest applications.

Is there a simple HHO cell setup that allows for the gases to remain separate till the very end when they would be mixed and burned inmediately at the torch tip. I.e. Two hoses, one for H2 and one for O2.

I believe that would be safer??

The lab guys out in Aldergrove BC had such a unit that separated the Oxygen from the hydrogen, a local inventor left them a prototype which was nicely enclosed in a commercial looking cabinet with dials and gauges the instructions silk screen on.

The unit sat unused for reasons that were never fully disclosed to me.

Regards
G

 

[stihl88]

Won't be going up to the farm today but when i do i'll get some photos.
Dads a big fan of Aircon & a Radio in all of his machinery, he's got two Forestry Log Skidders ones a Cat the others a Timber Jack, hes also got an HD11 Allis Chalmers Dozer and Excavator bobcat etc. Ive had a go of them all and the Excavator is the easiest to operate so far... Not sure about the soundproof cab but he doesn't operate them all day, if he can put up with the sound of the Timberjack running then he could put up with the D7 with ease :roll:

Hey, take a look at this cheap and quick way of making your own hydrogen, pretty cool if you ask me.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9Q6gDKP2R0[/youtube]

 

[rusty]

Found a nice set of plans for a large 101 plate dry cell, with schematics for a pulse driver, gas pressure switch, and a water level switch with pump diagram.

Maybe we can figure a way to redesign this large cell to not only supply the hydrogen for our torches but make sodium chlorate too.

Credits for the plan set. Bob Boyce.

If gasoline prices get much higher we'll all need a copy of the second set of plans, making wood gas. Wod gas might work to run a torch,

Some conversions,

Engine Tables

WOOD TO ENERGY CONVERSION DATA
BEFORE GASIFICATION

Based on wood moisture content of 15% wet basis
Woods gross heat energy content: 15,490kJ per kg
Woods gross heat energy content: 6,600 BTU per lb

Or 4.3kW heat per kg. Or 2.615HP per lb


Gasifiers energy conversion efficiency: 73.57% HOT GAS
Gasifiers energy conversion efficiency: 70.95% COLD GAS


AFTER GASIFICATION

Gas produced from 1kg of wood: 2.185 standard cubic metres
Gas produced from 1lb of wood: 35 standard cubic feet

Energy content of 1 standard cubic metre of gas: 5,030kJ
Energy content of 1 standard cubic foot of gas: 135 BTU

After gasification 1kg wood yields 2.185 cubic metres of gas which has a nett heat energy content of 3.05kW heat.

After gasification 1lb wood yields 35 cubic feet of gas which has a nett heat energy content of 1.8566HP heat. (Or 4,725 BTU)


1kg of wood produces 2.185 cubic metres of gas
or 3.165kW heat from burning gas direct
or 0.837kW of shaft power i.e engine
or 0.754kW of electric power generated

1lb of wood produces 35 cubic feet of gas
or 4,900 BTU heat from burning the gas direct
or 1.925HP heat from burning the gas direct
or 0.51 HP of shaft power i.e engine
or 0.459HP of electric power generated
or 0.342kW of electric power generated


1 litre of diesel has a heat energy content of 9.630 kW heat (or 32,895 BTU)

1 litre of petrol as a heat energy content of 8.79 kW heat (or 30,023 BTU)


1 litre of diesel has the same heat energy content as the cold gas from 3.1579kg of wood
1 litre of petrol has the same heat energy content as the cold gas from 2.882kg of wood

Regards
G

 

[samuel-a]

I also just finished building my own hho torch two weeks ego, since then I've blown up 3 bubblers... my torch tip is pretty much the same as yours but i can't get it ignite and flame smoothly, whenever i light it, it backfire.... i'm using a 0.8mm copper tip also using a brass tube (nickel plated) i front of the tip that is about 2 inch long and packed (very packed) with high gauge copper wire (from small e. motors).

I'm getting pretty decent production, still haven't test it for LPM, but flow is constant and rapid.
no matter what I'm doing, it backfire.... any suggestions? (I'll add photos tomorrow)



P.S. - my electrode arrangement is: - nnn + nnn - nnn + nnn -
n = neutral

Did this so I'll not get an oxidizing flame.
Efficiency is not a concern at the moment, just want it to work...

 

[rusty]

I also just finished building my own hho torch two weeks ego, since then I've blown up 3 bubblers... my torch tip is pretty much the same as yours but i can't get it ignite and flame smoothly, whenever i light it, it backfire.... i'm using a 0.8mm copper tip also using a brass tube (nickel plated) i front of the tip that is about 2 inch long and packed (very packed) with high gauge copper wire (from small e. motors).

I'm getting pretty decent production, still haven't test it for LPM, but flow is constant and rapid.
no matter what I'm doing, it backfire.... any suggestions? (I'll add photos tomorrow)



P.S. - my electrode arrangement is: - nnn + nnn - nnn + nnn -
n = neutral

Did this so I'll not get an oxidizing flame.
Efficiency is not a concern at the moment, just want it to work...

Replace the wire with loosely packed non ferrous wool, the keyword ( wool ) not wire. Install a screen in your bubbler with the processed gas entering below the screen this will help defuse the bubbles.

Nothing visibly wrong with your electrode arrangement, what is the spacing between plates.

 

[samuel-a]

Thanks Gil

I can't seem to find any bronze wool over here...

The spacing is about 1.4-1.5 mm

 

[rusty]

Thanks Gil

I can't seem to find any bronze wool over here...

The spacing is about 1.4-1.5 mm

From the Bob Boyce dry cell file optimised spacing would be 3 mm ( 1/8" ) for the imperial guys.

You can substitute brass / bronze wool for stainless steel wool commonly found in your local grocery or hardware store.

In third world country's where methane generators have been used for cooking, they use ordinary steel wool for control of flash back, but the gas ( methane ) is coming from the generator clean and dry.

Gas from the HHO cell is coming off with some lye, the bubbler is also doing duty as a scrubber removing lye, with screen installed a diffuser to break large hydrogen bubbles into smaller ones.

Not everything gets scrubbed in a small bubbler, the lye which is visible in the flame as the orange colour produced at the torch, I would rather see you use a commercially made flash arrestor manufactured by a reputable company not some Chinese crap.

Use the red arrestor, the treads are LH for a reason, to distinguish flammable gas from other non flammable, natural gas and propane pipes coming into a building have to be either be painted yellow or have yellow tape affixed every so many feet.

Helps keep people safe knowing what's inside that pipe. . http://tinyurl.com/5vn6doa

Install the arrestor on the end of your hose just before it attaches to the torch.

Regards
Gill

 

[stihl88]

Nice work on those plans Rusty!

Samuel, i did the exact same as you, i used some fine copper magnet wire which was tightly packed into the handle of the torch but it flashed back and near on blew my eardrums out. So what i used is some aquarium bubbler's (The waxy plastic type). The link Ive posted below shows another way of using aquarium bubbler's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3oTNDPoCjA


BTW, sign you selves up to this HHO Forum for some good articles > http://www.hhoforums.com/index.php
In the search box type HHO Torch.