Need some advice on Melting Gold _gasmeltfurnace_

Gold Refining Forum

Help Support Gold Refining Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Ferrous sulfate can be used to precipitate gold, and can easily be made from soft pure iron, transformer iron laminates is a good source for the iron (normal steel metals will not work as well for the iron source), dilute 10% sulfuric acid to dissolve the iron and make the iron sulfate solution.

Electronic transformers can be used, most of the iron laminates are welded, cutting the weld and separate the iron plates, burn off the oils or any varnish, wash the iron (do this only when you ready to make your sulfate, so the iron will not rust), cut the thin iron plate to smaller pieces so they dissolve in the dilute sulfuric acid easier, the iron will dissolve in the dilute sulfuric acid, a little heat will help the process, this will give you a green solution of iron sulfate, also called copperas, or FeSO4, (what you have read about in Hokes book), after the iron dissolve let the solution sit and settle, decant (pour off liquid without disturbing any solid materials), filter this solution, it can be used as is, or made into crystals with evaporation to drive off the liquid until the iron salt forms.

The green ferrous sulfate crystals, need a few drops of sulfuric acid for storage, and will need to be stored to keep the air from them, keeping them stored under a small amount of the acidic solution in an air tight container, will keep the green copperas crystals from oxidation.

Oxidation of air can change the chemistry of the iron salt turning it white or brown which would no longer be good for precipitating or testing for gold in solution.

These green crystals are easily made from materials most all of us can get, and can be used to precipitate gold from solution, or test for gold in solution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron%28II%29_sulfate

I have made several more posts on how to make the ferrous sulfate and how to use it, and there are many posts on the forum and in Hokes book on using it, and the tests for gold, a nice thing about ferrous sulfate, unlike stannous chloride in a test for gold, the ferrous sulfate precipitates the gold in the test as brown, then remainder of this solution can be tested further for other metals (PGM) without the gold interfering with the test.

Harold, and many others have made many posts on using ferrous sulfate for testing solutions, well worth searching for and studying.

As far as using gasoline, liquid gasoline does not burn, it is its gas (or fumes) in air or oxygen that burn.
All flammable liquids, or gases can be dangerous, even with burning wood, the wood gases can create explosions and be dangerous if not done or used properly.

I have not used the gasoline burners or furnaces they use in your country, although I would like to make and try one, I see no reason why if properly built and used, they would not be safe and work fairly well for gold or silver or other base metals, but for metals like platinum the carbon from them would be a problem.

Maybe you can help me with learning to build me one of the gas burners?
 
Types of flames for melting

When melting the 2 fuel sources mix together to form a specific type of flame depending on their ratio. Those 3 types are the Oxidizing flame, the Neutral flame, and the Reducing flame (also called the carburizing flame)

flame types.jpeg

So by controlling the airflow to the fuel and the quantity of fuel you control the flame. Some torches burn oxygen and a pressurized gas but blower type furnaces use air but the thing in the air that is doing the work is the oxygen.

A reducing flame is a flame that is starved of oxygen, when a flame is starved of oxygen it tries to make it up wherever it can. A potential source is metals that are oxidized in the melt. The flame wants that oxygen bad and it grabs it from the oxidized metals in the melt and in the process reduces those metals. A reducing flame is made by cutting back the oxygen supply by throttling down the air supply. This makes the flame start to roar. A reducing flame is the loudest flame in a melt furnace.

A neutral flame is a flame burning with a balanced quantity of oxygen and fuel. For metals melting it will get your charge hot enough to melt but will neither oxidize or reduce any of the charge.

An oxidizing flame is one that has an excess of oxygen and it gives up oxygen to any metals in the melt that can be oxidized. Fortunately for precious metal refiners the Noble Metals are noble because they resist corrosion and oxidation so they will not come out of the charge as an oxide.

In practice you never have the gas or the air wide open, usually you set both to light the furnace and get it pre heated and then start lowering each independently a little at a time to get the flame you desire.

The catch in all of this is that in a crucible melt, it really has little effect because the flame does not contact the charge other than passing over the surface of the melt which usually has some sort of flux covering it.

When incinerating and having an open flame on the charge it does make a difference as the flame (and the excess or lack of oxygen) reacts directly with the charge. I have also done quite a bit of sweeps melting using a rotary kiln which actually uses the kiln as the crucible and the flame heats the charge directly. For this type of melting the ability to control the reducing power or oxidizing power of the flame matters.

For crucible melting if you desire to remove metals from a melt and encourage them to collect in the flux, an oxygen wand immersed in the molten pool with a slow steady flow of oxygen rising through the melt is very effective at removing a lot of metals. The exception being obviously the noble metals and copper. Copper doesn't like to gas off into the flux with oxygen. While in theory it should, in practice it just doesn't. The trick here is to have an open center of molten metal in the crucible and a donut shaped pool of flux to collect the oxides when gassing oxygen with a wand.

I have found most melt and incineration setups lack the sophisticated gauges and valves to precisely control either the gas or the oxidized. So you learn to work the valves and listen to the sound of the burner. Remember, louder is reducing, a more quiet roar is oxidizing. You can also judge from the flame color coming out of the top of the furnace when it is running.

This furnace is running an oxidizing flame
oxidizing flame indication.jpeg

And this furnace is running a lean or a reducing flame, and quite likely more noisy than the previous furnace.
reducing flame indication.jpg

I have seen large gas melt furnaces that have the mass to absorb the sound (my guess) combined with a large top hole that only produce a gentle roar regardless of the type of flame. But the flame color coming out the top is still an indication.
 
butcher said:
Ferrous sulfate can be used to precipitate gold, and can easily be made from soft pure iron, transformer iron laminates is a good source for the iron (normal steel metals will not work as well for the iron source), dilute 10% sulfuric acid to dissolve the iron and make the iron sulfate solution.

Electronic transformers can be used, most of the iron laminates are welded, cutting the weld and separate the iron plates, burn off the oils or any varnish, wash the iron (do this only when you ready to make your sulfate, so the iron will not rust), cut the thin iron plate to smaller pieces so they dissolve in the dilute sulfuric acid easier, the iron will dissolve in the dilute sulfuric acid, a little heat will help the process, this will give you a green solution of iron sulfate, also called copperas, or FeSO4, (what you have read about in Hokes book), after the iron dissolve let the solution sit and settle, decant (pour off liquid without disturbing any solid materials), filter this solution, it can be used as is, or made into crystals with evaporation to drive off the liquid until the iron salt forms.

The green ferrous sulfate crystals, need a few drops of sulfuric acid for storage, and will need to be stored to keep the air from them, keeping them stored under a small amount of the acidic solution in an air tight container, will keep the green copperas crystals from oxidation.

Oxidation of air can change the chemistry of the iron salt turning it white or brown which would no longer be good for precipitating or testing for gold in solution.

These green crystals are easily made from materials most all of us can get, and can be used to precipitate gold from solution, or test for gold in solution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron%28II%29_sulfate

I have made several more posts on how to make the ferrous sulfate and how to use it, and there are many posts on the forum and in Hokes book on using it, and the tests for gold, a nice thing about ferrous sulfate, unlike stannous chloride in a test for gold, the ferrous sulfate precipitates the gold in the test as brown, then remainder of this solution can be tested further for other metals (PGM) without the gold interfering with the test.

Harold, and many others have made many posts on using ferrous sulfate for testing solutions, well worth searching for and studying.

As far as using gasoline, liquid gasoline does not burn, it is its gas (or fumes) in air or oxygen that burn.
All flammable liquids, or gases can be dangerous, even with burning wood, the wood gases can create explosions and be dangerous if not done or used properly.

I have not used the gasoline burners or furnaces they use in your country, although I would like to make and try one, I see no reason why if properly built and used, they would not be safe and work fairly well for gold or silver or other base metals, but for metals like platinum the carbon from them would be a problem.

Maybe you can help me with learning to build me one of the gas burners?

Thank you butcher for suggesting Ferrous sulfate. I will read further about it to be sure I understood the process.

I will also post pictures of the set up that I use for you guys to see. I think this set up can have improvements specially from you guys here that has better knowledge on torches/mixtures and the like.

I included pictures of where I melt and the melt dish I am using. I cannot find the same melting dish that you guys use here.

Butcher I am not the one who made the tank and torch. I only connected the set up together. I hope the pics help.

Thank you again.

Mohammed
 

Attachments

  • 20160327_112114.jpg
    20160327_112114.jpg
    1.3 MB
  • 20160327_112134.jpg
    20160327_112134.jpg
    1.6 MB
  • 20160327_112406.jpg
    20160327_112406.jpg
    1.4 MB
  • 20160327_112419.jpg
    20160327_112419.jpg
    1.9 MB
4metals said:
Types of flames for melting

When melting the 2 fuel sources mix together to form a specific type of flame depending on their ratio. Those 3 types are the Oxidizing flame, the Neutral flame, and the Reducing flame (also called the carburizing flame)

So by controlling the airflow to the fuel and the quantity of fuel you control the flame. Some torches burn oxygen and a pressurized gas but blower type furnaces use air but the thing in the air that is doing the work is the oxygen.

A reducing flame is a flame that is starved of oxygen, when a flame is starved of oxygen it tries to make it up wherever it can. A potential source is metals that are oxidized in the melt. The flame wants that oxygen bad and it grabs it from the oxidized metals in the melt and in the process reduces those metals. A reducing flame is made by cutting back the oxygen supply by throttling down the air supply. This makes the flame start to roar. A reducing flame is the loudest flame in a melt furnace.

A neutral flame is a flame burning with a balanced quantity of oxygen and fuel. For metals melting it will get your charge hot enough to melt but will neither oxidize or reduce any of the charge.

An oxidizing flame is one that has an excess of oxygen and it gives up oxygen to any metals in the melt that can be oxidized. Fortunately for precious metal refiners the Noble Metals are noble because they resist corrosion and oxidation so they will not come out of the charge as an oxide.

In practice you never have the gas or the air wide open, usually you set both to light the furnace and get it pre heated and then start lowering each independently a little at a time to get the flame you desire.

The catch in all of this is that in a crucible melt, it really has little effect because the flame does not contact the charge other than passing over the surface of the melt which usually has some sort of flux covering it.

When incinerating and having an open flame on the charge it does make a difference as the flame (and the excess or lack of oxygen) reacts directly with the charge. I have also done quite a bit of sweeps melting using a rotary kiln which actually uses the kiln as the crucible and the flame heats the charge directly. For this type of melting the ability to control the reducing power or oxidizing power of the flame matters.

For crucible melting if you desire to remove metals from a melt and encourage them to collect in the flux, an oxygen wand immersed in the molten pool with a slow steady flow of oxygen rising through the melt is very effective at removing a lot of metals. The exception being obviously the noble metals and copper. Copper doesn't like to gas off into the flux with oxygen. While in theory it should, in practice it just doesn't. The trick here is to have an open center of molten metal in the crucible and a donut shaped pool of flux to collect the oxides when gassing oxygen with a wand.

I have found most melt and incineration setups lack the sophisticated gauges and valves to precisely control either the gas or the oxidized. So you learn to work the valves and listen to the sound of the burner. Remember, louder is reducing, a more quiet roar is oxidizing. You can also judge from the flame color coming out of the top of the furnace when it is running.

This furnace is running an oxidizing flame
View attachment 2

And this furnace is running a lean or a reducing flame, and quite likely more noisy than the previous furnace.
View attachment 1

I have seen large gas melt furnaces that have the mass to absorb the sound (my guess) combined with a large top hole that only produce a gentle roar regardless of the type of flame. But the flame color coming out the top is still an indication.

Thank you 4metals. Saved your comment on a document because of its importance and for further understanding the whole comment.

Seen the pics of the furnaces. Am I wrong that the more yellowish flame is a reducing flame?
 
Thank you for posting pictures of your gasoline torch.
I have several questions.

What pressure does the air compressor regulator run at?
I assume a very low pressure like two to five pounds?

The air tube from the air compressor going to the refrigeration tank, does this pipe go to the bottom to bubble the air through the little bit of gas in that tank (like a dip tube inside), or does it just go into the top of the refrigeration tank like the discharge tube going to the torch?

Can you provide any detail on how the torch head is made, it looks like a piece of pipe with a welded elbow,and a valve for gas fumes/air control the small tube or wire welded to the back of the elbow does it serve any purpose besides holding the handle?

What concerns me at this point is there any back-flash valve, and check valves for safety?
If not I would add then to the line going to the torch head.

Does the torch pick up any atmospheric air at the torch head, besides air supplied by the air compressor?

Is there anything special about the torch tip, orifices or jets?

I find this very interesting, I have worked on many different types of industrial burners, and torches, and made many different types of my own, any time I can learn about another kind, or learn to make another type, it peaks my interest.

Any more detail you can provide would be appreciated.
 
Thanks that explains a lot, the small tube bypasses the valve acting as a pilot.


Here is some things I have been looking into:
petrogen:
http://www.ct.gov/demhs/lib/demhs/usr/training/petrogen_torch.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC_5_TYWhbA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojhjYdoNs7w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SabpLuqd2ZA


Unrelated:
Thermal lance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA-VCaBUsCA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-EZZeg81bo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReBBELs_Xg0
 
Hello Aeon13,

I'm from Ph Cebu, I bought my 1kilo SMB in manila 2 years ago. check in olx link below
https://www.olx.ph/item/sodium-metabisulfite-ID6XGKj.html?p=1&h=daa2f9625e#daa2f9625e

Regards,
Richard
 
butcher said:
Thank you for posting pictures of your gasoline torch.
I have several questions.

What pressure does the air compressor regulator run at?
I assume a very low pressure like two to five pounds?

The air tube from the air compressor going to the refrigeration tank, does this pipe go to the bottom to bubble the air through the little bit of gas in that tank (like a dip tube inside), or does it just go into the top of the refrigeration tank like the discharge tube going to the torch?

Can you provide any detail on how the torch head is made, it looks like a piece of pipe with a welded elbow,and a valve for gas fumes/air control the small tube or wire welded to the back of the elbow does it serve any purpose besides holding the handle?

What concerns me at this point is there any back-flash valve, and check valves for safety?
If not I would add then to the line going to the torch head.

Does the torch pick up any atmospheric air at the torch head, besides air supplied by the air compressor?

Is there anything special about the torch tip, orifices or jets?

I find this very interesting, I have worked on many different types of industrial burners, and torches, and made many different types of my own, any time I can learn about another kind, or learn to make another type, it peaks my interest.

Any more detail you can provide would be appreciated.


My apologies for my late reply butcher.

This set up does not have a regulator I just slowly and carefully add the strength of the air coming out from the compressor and observe the flame. I can add a regulator though for me to monitor the right pressure of air coming out. It does not involve bubbling, the pipe going out to the torch is located in the upper part of the tank. Sadly though there are no back-flash valve, and check valves. I need to study how to install it first. I will be posting some close up pictures for further information. Thanks for your comments.

Mohammed
 

Attachments

  • 20160329_234808.jpg
    20160329_234808.jpg
    1.1 MB
  • 20160329_234753.jpg
    20160329_234753.jpg
    1.1 MB
  • 20160329_234741.jpg
    20160329_234741.jpg
    1.1 MB
  • 20160329_234831.jpg
    20160329_234831.jpg
    999.3 KB
richard2013 said:
Hello Aeon13,

I'm from Ph Cebu, I bought my 1kilo SMB in manila 2 years ago. check in olx link below
https://www.olx.ph/item/sodium-metabisulfite-ID6XGKj.html?p=1&h=daa2f9625e#daa2f9625e

Regards,
Richard


Hi there richard2013!!kabayan! :p . It's nice to meet you here on the forum. I contacted that supplier already yesterday. Thanks for your post. Are you into refining too? I'm from Baguio City. What do you think about th torch that I use?Maybe you can give me your contact number for us to know each other.

Thanks again
Mohammed
 
Aeon13 said:
richard2013 said:
Hello Aeon13,

I'm from Ph Cebu, I bought my 1kilo SMB in manila 2 years ago. check in olx link below
https://www.olx.ph/item/sodium-metabisulfite-ID6XGKj.html?p=1&h=daa2f9625e#daa2f9625e

Regards,
Richard


Hi there richard2013!!kabayan! :p . It's nice to meet you here on the forum. I contacted that supplier already yesterday. Thanks for your post. Are you into refining too? I'm from Baguio City. What do you think about th torch that I use?Maybe you can give me your contact number for us to know each other.

Thanks again
Mohammed

Hello Aeon13,

The torch you are using is just a powerful version of all those smaller units with manual air pump used by jewelers around the country. I would say gasoline is cheaper and economical now presently.

I have been to baguio once year 1999 :) I wish I could come visit back someday.
 
This setup is safe, reliable and economical. But not for melting large quantities of gold.

You don't need a flashback arrestors or regulators as your air compressor is already pumping gasoline vapors/air mix out to the hose.
Your gasoline content acts as your fuel, while the air compressors psi acts as your oxygen in this state.

There is only one danger for this kind of setup though, when you have too much gasoline in the tank and the gasoline (liquid form) starts to pour out from your torch. This will immediately ignite and spread causing fire.

Also since your gasoline acts as your fuel, as soon as it depletes while you are in the middle of the melting process you would have to shut off the torch, add gasoline, then melt again.

I am also from the same country as you are and have been into refining for years experimenting with small amounts outdoors (1-2g). It is only now that I am going for the large lots (up to 1kg). I own a very small jewelry manufacturing shop.

Also, Hyatt jewelry tools, where you buy your SMB is not a good supplier. They overcharge and send defective items. They used to be my supplier until they sent me a foredom machine that was broken, I tried to return it but they keep on making false promises. I also paid for a customization of an engraving block which they never delivered. That SMB price for 500/kilo (approximately 13$/kilo) is very much overpriced. I have a lot of refining chemicals in bulk, if you do not need that much you can buy from me.

My business also needs a stable supply of gold, if you are willing to deliver in Manila and sell for the right price then I am willing to buy your gold.

Also, maybe you could talk to your miners and try to see if we can help them out with regards to the process of extracting gold? They could already be using an efficient system but I doubt as most of the small scale miners here are not really educated and uses the very old techniques.
 
autumnwillow said:
This setup is safe, reliable and economical. But not for melting large quantities of gold.

You don't need a flashback arrestors or regulators as your air compressor is already pumping gasoline vapors/air mix out to the hose.
Your gasoline content acts as your fuel, while the air compressors psi acts as your oxygen in this state.

There is only one danger for this kind of setup though, when you have too much gasoline in the tank and the gasoline (liquid form) starts to pour out from your torch. This will immediately ignite and spread causing fire.

Also since your gasoline acts as your fuel, as soon as it depletes while you are in the middle of the melting process you would have to shut off the torch, add gasoline, then melt again.

I am also from the same country as you are and have been into refining for years experimenting with small amounts outdoors (1-2g). It is only now that I am going for the large lots (up to 1kg). I own a very small jewelry manufacturing shop.

Also, Hyatt jewelry tools, where you buy your SMB is not a good supplier. They overcharge and send defective items. They used to be my supplier until they sent me a foredom machine that was broken, I tried to return it but they keep on making false promises. I also paid for a customization of an engraving block which they never delivered. That SMB price for 500/kilo (approximately 13$/kilo) is very much overpriced. I have a lot of refining chemicals in bulk, if you do not need that much you can buy from me.

My business also needs a stable supply of gold, if you are willing to deliver in Manila and sell for the right price then I am willing to buy your gold.

Also, maybe you could talk to your miners and try to see if we can help them out with regards to the process of extracting gold? They could already be using an efficient system but I doubt as most of the small scale miners here are not really educated and uses the very old techniques.


Thanks for the comment sir autumnwillow! Nice to see another kabayan here in the forum!

Yes sir you are right about the danger of this set up. That is why I always check if the tank is half full and if so I will empty it and put a cup of gasoline which will be able to finish one to four melting of gold buttons. (I melt 1-50 grams only). It is good to know that you are also from small beginnings. I am new in gold buying and refining and this field is so interesting. I sent you a private message sir about the supplies and gold.

Actually I started helping these small scale miners here in our place (my uncle is one of them). This is my main purpose in joining this forum. My past topic is about getting information here to help their process become better and of course safer. Sadly, you are right. I know some miners here that use mercury and doesn't know the harmful effect. I hope by learning things here in the forum with the help of kind members, I could help these miners also knowing the hardships they encounter every day in the mines. This is my contact number sir: 09087317672

Thank you again.

Regards,
Mohammed
 
Hi
I bought a small blower for my melting furnace but now I think it is small and can not pump enough air in furnace
It doesn't have specifications but I think it is 70 to 80 CFM
Is it enough for a small furnace (2 KG) ?
 
Concerning "goldrecovery"

I think it would be OK if his posted his stuff ONLY on the Refiners, Buyers, Assayers, etc. forum Category. Although I would doubt that anyone in the US would buy from him in Pakistan, we do have members which are from his part of the world.

By posting his obvious spam in the other forum categories, he is seriously disrupting the threads. Also, everything that I have seen on his website is extremely basic. The info posted on this forum is far more complete and viable than anything on his site. If he wants to participate in the other threads without any of his blatant advertising, he is very welcome to do so. However, if he continues to spam in these other categories, I would think we would ban him.
 
I'm with you, guys. At this stage his posts are just annoying and doesn't contribute.

But I would like to see him comment on the thread where we already is discussing his videos. That would be appropriate.

Göran
 

Latest posts

Back
Top