A
Anonymous
Guest
Well if you can't see past your angst about it then that's your loss mate. Personally I'd recommend you did see past it, but I'm not you.
Neutralizing Acid
- Thread starter cfoster78
- Start date
Help Support Gold Refining Forum:
bigjohn
Well-known member
cfoster78
There are hundreds of people who show up here looking for help. Most of them are people who watched a youtube video and said I can do that, or got the shor instructions and made a mess. Most people find us because they started something they knew nothing about and have a mess on their hands. I find it hard to believe that a chemical engineer would not understand what was happening during the process "dropping" gold. There are plenty of members on this forum just like me who dropped out of high school and were able to do some studying here and understand the process. Back to you showing up being a chemical engineer asking us for help when you should be more than qualified to answer your own question. So yes you will be advised to read and study some. That my friend is the best help you could be given.
There are hundreds of people who show up here looking for help. Most of them are people who watched a youtube video and said I can do that, or got the shor instructions and made a mess. Most people find us because they started something they knew nothing about and have a mess on their hands. I find it hard to believe that a chemical engineer would not understand what was happening during the process "dropping" gold. There are plenty of members on this forum just like me who dropped out of high school and were able to do some studying here and understand the process. Back to you showing up being a chemical engineer asking us for help when you should be more than qualified to answer your own question. So yes you will be advised to read and study some. That my friend is the best help you could be given.
solar_plasma
Well-known member
I am thinking over, what is the best way to convince people about to follow the advices and to let them understand, what they do not know yet..... or to find another hobby. I have seen all kinds of approaches on the forum to achieve this. But I observe, that neither good words nor harsh words, neither long nor short statements do any difference. It lies in the peoples hands, obviously it lies in their personality, if they take the chance or not. You can't force the horse to drink, you can only lead it to the watering place.
Pantherlikher
Well-known member
Yeppers.
I was a vehicle diagnostic technician for almost 25 years...Sounds big don't it...
Every customer knew what was wrong and how to fix it and how much it was supposed to cost so bitched a big 1 when it was something completely different and that I was wrong and knew nothing about what I was doing.,...Period...
It's how people are and there aint no changing that. You simplely cannot tell someone they are wrong and need to learn something. That's when it becomes a personal attack. When told they are wrong and need to learn.
cfoster78...
We are all very straight forward and at times, short. It's only because this field is chock full of professionals from all walks of life. All here helping each other and new people learn the fine art of recovery and refinning of PMs. And every new person, us included, come here and ask the same questions over and over expecting the simplest answer with no catches.
This is not the way to learn something new. Would you rather we hand you a cooked fish to eat, or teach you to catch and cook fish yourself?. Being such a qualified chemist as you've defended many times so far, you would greatly appreciate this.
Solar_plasma being the first to reply to your question, is German right? A very different culture as is mine. This can create bad feelings and attacks simply the way we communicate. solar_plasma like the rest of us have had extended talks about how to reach anyone new comming here and asking something they should have already learned by reading.
All we can do is point you in the right direction and hope you follow.
B.S.
Sorry if feelings have been hurt as not intended.
Now...Do you wish to move forward and learn what you did and what to do?.
I was a vehicle diagnostic technician for almost 25 years...Sounds big don't it...
Every customer knew what was wrong and how to fix it and how much it was supposed to cost so bitched a big 1 when it was something completely different and that I was wrong and knew nothing about what I was doing.,...Period...
It's how people are and there aint no changing that. You simplely cannot tell someone they are wrong and need to learn something. That's when it becomes a personal attack. When told they are wrong and need to learn.
cfoster78...
We are all very straight forward and at times, short. It's only because this field is chock full of professionals from all walks of life. All here helping each other and new people learn the fine art of recovery and refinning of PMs. And every new person, us included, come here and ask the same questions over and over expecting the simplest answer with no catches.
This is not the way to learn something new. Would you rather we hand you a cooked fish to eat, or teach you to catch and cook fish yourself?. Being such a qualified chemist as you've defended many times so far, you would greatly appreciate this.
Solar_plasma being the first to reply to your question, is German right? A very different culture as is mine. This can create bad feelings and attacks simply the way we communicate. solar_plasma like the rest of us have had extended talks about how to reach anyone new comming here and asking something they should have already learned by reading.
All we can do is point you in the right direction and hope you follow.
B.S.
Sorry if feelings have been hurt as not intended.
Now...Do you wish to move forward and learn what you did and what to do?.
Either that or just press the key to the right of "L". :mrgreen:solar_plasma said:
No worry, I'm been called worse things than Goran. :twisted:
Göran
cfoster78,
I do not know how much knowledge you have about a process or with the chemistry involved, You may know more than I do, it really does not matter, if you ask for advice. You will probably get advice, If you do not like getting the advice do not ask for it, as it may not be what you wish to hear.
People her will help you if you give them a chance, come back with attitude and you will not be a member here for long.
No need to walk around the forum with a chip on your shoulder, if you don’t you may find these people trying to help could be your friends, you may not always like what they have to say, or the way they say it, but many times if you consider it you will find it actually helpful, if not say thank you, for the helpful advice...
I do not care how much chemistry classes someone has taken, if they are not skilled in recovery or refining precious metals, they will have a lot to learn, it is very hard to learn something when you have an attitude that you already know it all, just like any field, it is easier to teach (or learn) if you do not know, than it is to teach (or learn) when you know it all. Know it all's are some of the dumbest people I know of, they are so smart they cannot learn something new.
A basic understanding of chemistry will be very helpful, but it is not necessary to learn to recover and refine precious metals, many here do not understand the chemistry, but know the reactions and have learned to recover and refine precious metals (some of these actually understand the chemical process and reactions involved better than most professional chemist's ever would), others here have picked up some of the chemistry while learning this art, and then there are some members here that are chemist, and have learned to recover and refine, or specialize in this type of chemistry (even these learn something here all the time).
All members helping each other the best they can (without attitude).
I will welcome you to the forum (but that attitude is not welcome here.)
I hope we both can learn from each other, and enjoy sharing what we are learning.
I do not know how much knowledge you have about a process or with the chemistry involved, You may know more than I do, it really does not matter, if you ask for advice. You will probably get advice, If you do not like getting the advice do not ask for it, as it may not be what you wish to hear.
People her will help you if you give them a chance, come back with attitude and you will not be a member here for long.
No need to walk around the forum with a chip on your shoulder, if you don’t you may find these people trying to help could be your friends, you may not always like what they have to say, or the way they say it, but many times if you consider it you will find it actually helpful, if not say thank you, for the helpful advice...
I do not care how much chemistry classes someone has taken, if they are not skilled in recovery or refining precious metals, they will have a lot to learn, it is very hard to learn something when you have an attitude that you already know it all, just like any field, it is easier to teach (or learn) if you do not know, than it is to teach (or learn) when you know it all. Know it all's are some of the dumbest people I know of, they are so smart they cannot learn something new.
A basic understanding of chemistry will be very helpful, but it is not necessary to learn to recover and refine precious metals, many here do not understand the chemistry, but know the reactions and have learned to recover and refine precious metals (some of these actually understand the chemical process and reactions involved better than most professional chemist's ever would), others here have picked up some of the chemistry while learning this art, and then there are some members here that are chemist, and have learned to recover and refine, or specialize in this type of chemistry (even these learn something here all the time).
All members helping each other the best they can (without attitude).
I will welcome you to the forum (but that attitude is not welcome here.)
I hope we both can learn from each other, and enjoy sharing what we are learning.
Oh my goodness! When I saw this thread this morning, I couldn't believe it was the one I commented on just a day before. Over 40 posts in less than 24 hours. Wow! Since my back recovery has been going well, I've been spending longer days at the project house and haven't had as much time to read the forum. After posting my initial reply yesterday morning, I wasn't able to get back on here until this morning. It took me all morning to read the responses! :lol:
First, I'd like to apologize to you cfoster78. Since I don't get much time here right now, my reply to you was brief, and I can understand how you interpreted it as condescending. That was not intentional, and I'm sorry you took it that way.
Having said that, I have to disagree that it was also unhelpful. Your post clearly showed that you didn't understand some of what you were doing - that's why you were asking for help. At the end you said "Any insight into how I should proceed would be greatly appreciated." The first statement in my reply was that you needed to continues studying. You claimed to have read up as much as you could. Unless you have read all the posts on this forum, this is incorrect. If you devote the time to doing just that, you'll understand that you would have learned the answers to your questions. So until you do, you haven't read as much as you could.
You told us that you used urea to neutralize the HNO3 in your aqua regia. I responded that you do not use urea to neutralize nitric acid. No matter how many times you read that, including from members here on the forum, it is simply wrong. Urea doe NOT neutralize nitric acid. If you search the subject and read the responses on this forum, you'll come to understand that.
You said that "since the urea does not neutralize the HCl in the AR", you asked if you were "missing a step in the process by not neutralizing the HCl prior to attempting to precipitate the gold". I responded to that misconception by telling you that excess HCl does not interfere with the precipitation of gold with SMB.
Finally, I ended my post with the statement that it may take more than a day to assimilate all the information on this forum. This is in direct response to your claim that you had read up as much as you can on the process of gold extraction (including Hoke). You joined the forum at 8:36. After reading up as much as you could, you posted your question at 8:42.
While you may not have understood that my answers were, indeed, helpful, you quickly went from bad to worse by insulting members of this forum who also tried to help you. I'll take one more stab at it. This is a link to a thread that may keep you from getting booted off this forum before you realize what a valuable resource it truly is. New to the board and want to ask questions? READ THIS FIRST
My advice still stands. Continue studying.
Dave
First, I'd like to apologize to you cfoster78. Since I don't get much time here right now, my reply to you was brief, and I can understand how you interpreted it as condescending. That was not intentional, and I'm sorry you took it that way.
Having said that, I have to disagree that it was also unhelpful. Your post clearly showed that you didn't understand some of what you were doing - that's why you were asking for help. At the end you said "Any insight into how I should proceed would be greatly appreciated." The first statement in my reply was that you needed to continues studying. You claimed to have read up as much as you could. Unless you have read all the posts on this forum, this is incorrect. If you devote the time to doing just that, you'll understand that you would have learned the answers to your questions. So until you do, you haven't read as much as you could.
You told us that you used urea to neutralize the HNO3 in your aqua regia. I responded that you do not use urea to neutralize nitric acid. No matter how many times you read that, including from members here on the forum, it is simply wrong. Urea doe NOT neutralize nitric acid. If you search the subject and read the responses on this forum, you'll come to understand that.
You said that "since the urea does not neutralize the HCl in the AR", you asked if you were "missing a step in the process by not neutralizing the HCl prior to attempting to precipitate the gold". I responded to that misconception by telling you that excess HCl does not interfere with the precipitation of gold with SMB.
Finally, I ended my post with the statement that it may take more than a day to assimilate all the information on this forum. This is in direct response to your claim that you had read up as much as you can on the process of gold extraction (including Hoke). You joined the forum at 8:36. After reading up as much as you could, you posted your question at 8:42.
While you may not have understood that my answers were, indeed, helpful, you quickly went from bad to worse by insulting members of this forum who also tried to help you. I'll take one more stab at it. This is a link to a thread that may keep you from getting booted off this forum before you realize what a valuable resource it truly is. New to the board and want to ask questions? READ THIS FIRST
My advice still stands. Continue studying.
Dave
niteliteone
Well-known member
Dave,FrugalRefiner said:
You have nothing to apologize for. You were very courteous and didn't say anything out of line. You just didn't give the answer wanted.
Thanks nitelite. I try really hard to self-edit my posts. I try to always provide some useful advice when I post and to avoid being a smart alec. I often delete a post I've started because I realize it adds nothing of value to the forum and just adds to the clutter. I was more snarky in my first reply than the standard I try to set for myself. I apologized for the tone of the post, not the content.
Dave
Dave
Dave, I have always found your posts helpful and to the point, and i also understand you are no smart alec, thanks for working to set the record straight.
One big problem when we begin to learn something new is we do not know enough about it, so we really have no understanding of how clueless we are in the subject, sometimes it takes a lot of study just to figure out how much we really do not know yet.
One big problem when we begin to learn something new is we do not know enough about it, so we really have no understanding of how clueless we are in the subject, sometimes it takes a lot of study just to figure out how much we really do not know yet.
RikkiRicardo
Well-known member
Butcher
One big problem when we begin to learn something new is we do not know enough about it, so we really have no understanding of how clueless we are in the subject, sometimes it takes a lot of study just to figure out how much we really do not know yet.
How true
RikkiRicardo
One big problem when we begin to learn something new is we do not know enough about it, so we really have no understanding of how clueless we are in the subject, sometimes it takes a lot of study just to figure out how much we really do not know yet.
How true
RikkiRicardo
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2007
- Messages
- 8,360
I have just now started reading this thread, so my comments may be unwarranted, or even outdated.cfoster78 said:
One thing you must understand, just as I understand that I, as a machinist, know nothing about cutting gears.
I admire and respect your education in chemistry. You know things that I never will, nor do I have hopes of understanding. However, when it comes to refining gold, I am far more qualified than you are, if only because I understand the mechanics of refining. It doesn't hurt that in my many years I refined and melted thousands of ounces of gold and silver.
The very best advice anyone can offer you is to read Hoke's book. Not because it's a great technical piece of work---it isn't. However, what it does for you is to familiarize you with the mechanics of gold refining. It also teaches you how to properly test for various metals. With your chemical background, all of it should come with almost no effort, but they are things you MUST know and understand in order to refine with acceptable results.
For the record, one does NOT add ammonium hydroxide to gold chloride. Not ever.
May I suggest to you that you peruse your Merck Index, reading about gold compounds, and how unstable they can be? That may help you understand why even a skilled chemist is wise to not experiment with solutions of precious metals.
Enough said, at least for now.
Harold
steyr223
Well-known member
Hey guys hows everyone in the head today 
I hope we didn't run the op off
I believe if he lost the bit of tude and I say a bit
because we have all seen huge attitude from many
short timers that always decide to just not come back
When they realize they were wong.
When all they had to do was step back and say sorry
Wont happen again.
Sometimes this is difficult when it seems like everyone
Is against you
I just thank god I had no reason for this( not a chemist or refiner)
It was much easier for me to step back and practice
Humbleness than it would be for the more educated.
Now to the op you still need to answer the above questions
For anyone to help.
How much material did you start with,my guess would
Be not that much(you had said the solder was left on the
Boads and it wouldn't take very many in your HNO3 bath
To create metastanic acid known as tin paste. Did you
See a white gel or pastey substance,this will definitly
Make things very difficult
As far as evaperating your excess HNO3 hokes tells all
Around the start of the book
And as said get or make some SnCl stannous chloride
To test for gold in solution (2 grams of solder and 30mls
Of HCl) drop for drop and purple to black means gold in
Solution
But the questions still need to be answerd
Hope this helps steyr223 rob
I hope we didn't run the op off
I believe if he lost the bit of tude and I say a bit
because we have all seen huge attitude from many
short timers that always decide to just not come back
When they realize they were wong.
When all they had to do was step back and say sorry
Wont happen again.
Sometimes this is difficult when it seems like everyone
Is against you
I just thank god I had no reason for this( not a chemist or refiner)
It was much easier for me to step back and practice
Humbleness than it would be for the more educated.
Now to the op you still need to answer the above questions
For anyone to help.
How much material did you start with,my guess would
Be not that much(you had said the solder was left on the
Boads and it wouldn't take very many in your HNO3 bath
To create metastanic acid known as tin paste. Did you
See a white gel or pastey substance,this will definitly
Make things very difficult
As far as evaperating your excess HNO3 hokes tells all
Around the start of the book
And as said get or make some SnCl stannous chloride
To test for gold in solution (2 grams of solder and 30mls
Of HCl) drop for drop and purple to black means gold in
Solution
But the questions still need to be answerd
Hope this helps steyr223 rob
BigBraintheory
New member
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2014
- Messages
- 1
Things that make an ugly world hideous:
For starters the first few posts on this thread in response to a guy who obviously has IQ levels far above the self proclaimed 'Superior' Metal Maniacs that responded to a request for help with what I like to call big brother syndrome. Not the cool one in your family either. He said hey I know what Ive done can be dangerous potentially for I may have mixed certain chemicals which may have reacted synthesizing new more dangerous and potentially explosive ones. I dont want to do that past the point Im at so hey guys can you give me some input into how I can go about being a safer and more skilled person at this hobby so maybe in the future I can come onto a forum such as this one and help a fellow stranger in need of friendly wisdom even if it may be stern and all inclusive. So it was something along those lines. And the response he gets is along these lines: "Hey ******** you need to check yourself at the login cause you in the house of King FoT with a capital T, got that bug. Yea bug, press pause on your wisdom search and fast forward your complete blank knowledge database a few years when you finally realized we dont help bugs here, we stomp them out. FoT may you drop gold in peace my thong idol, you. And next but not last, as to what youre brewing in that wicked evil weapon of mass destruction slurry, you havent the slightest idea but they can explode without any known reason to man or monkey or even King FoT himself, so these words you make up like Aluminap Nitelight and what not we wont be having it here because this is the only place you can find real truthful secret hidden gold knowledge without having your man secret dipped in molten gold and rung with a dong as we all do acid tests on it to see if you are 24kt pure of heart. Anz second but never say last, get lost bug, alast King FoT will sucumb to my advances. For I am the fake keeper.
So yea you guys really give a great first impression. I mean I cant wait til I have a question about flux and crucibles. THE SCARLET LETTER FOR YOU VETS IS A SCARLET 'F' . FAIL
For starters the first few posts on this thread in response to a guy who obviously has IQ levels far above the self proclaimed 'Superior' Metal Maniacs that responded to a request for help with what I like to call big brother syndrome. Not the cool one in your family either. He said hey I know what Ive done can be dangerous potentially for I may have mixed certain chemicals which may have reacted synthesizing new more dangerous and potentially explosive ones. I dont want to do that past the point Im at so hey guys can you give me some input into how I can go about being a safer and more skilled person at this hobby so maybe in the future I can come onto a forum such as this one and help a fellow stranger in need of friendly wisdom even if it may be stern and all inclusive. So it was something along those lines. And the response he gets is along these lines: "Hey ******** you need to check yourself at the login cause you in the house of King FoT with a capital T, got that bug. Yea bug, press pause on your wisdom search and fast forward your complete blank knowledge database a few years when you finally realized we dont help bugs here, we stomp them out. FoT may you drop gold in peace my thong idol, you. And next but not last, as to what youre brewing in that wicked evil weapon of mass destruction slurry, you havent the slightest idea but they can explode without any known reason to man or monkey or even King FoT himself, so these words you make up like Aluminap Nitelight and what not we wont be having it here because this is the only place you can find real truthful secret hidden gold knowledge without having your man secret dipped in molten gold and rung with a dong as we all do acid tests on it to see if you are 24kt pure of heart. Anz second but never say last, get lost bug, alast King FoT will sucumb to my advances. For I am the fake keeper.
So yea you guys really give a great first impression. I mean I cant wait til I have a question about flux and crucibles. THE SCARLET LETTER FOR YOU VETS IS A SCARLET 'F' . FAIL
Geo
Well-known member
Sounds like BigBraintheory has been here before. With one post to your credit, you have managed to label all of us as narcissist. Perhaps if he had presented his case as eloquently as you (minus the profanity), he may have gotten a better response. Lucky you, you get a response from me. I find your response to this topic completely inappropriate. How do you think your response like this is going to reflect upon you as a member (for as long as that may be). If you haven't been a member here before, this is not the way we behave on the forum. You do understand that your response can be interpreted as an insult to every member here and that we understand that it was meant to be just that.
Edited for grammar.
Edited for grammar.
solar_plasma
Well-known member
BigBraintheory said:
Thank you for a laugh in the morning. It is not long ago, that I was a complete noob myself and I can't agree with your "first impression", if it is your first impression. Though it sounds more like you have to settle some old scores. I see a lack of content in your post. In order to try to get this into something productive, how would you like to help the different kinds of noobs? Instead of using your energy on slinging mud, you could join a conversation with some of the noobs and show us your superior communicative insights. I would like to learn from you, at least if there is more than hot air.
solar_plasma
Well-known member
And about your flux and crucibles: I found an overwhelming flood of information about this in the forum. Since I don't understand myself as being superior in any way, I am sure, you will find those, too. If not, just ask politely in a way, we can see, that you uprightly tried to find it yourself and there will be a lot of helping hands including my own. Try again to sling your mud towards my direction and I won't answer,not even ignore your post, but just keep smiling.
BigBraintheory,
What is the Beef? We have been trying to be helpful to, and respectful to all our new members, including the one in this thread, and trying to tell them how it is, to help them see the dangers involved, and point them where to begin learning, warn them of the dangers involved, to help them from hurting themselves and others.
Can we help it if some people come here thinking they know everything, walking into a gunpowder factory with a lit cigar in between there teeth, asking to learn how to get out of the last mess they caused.
Some people just cannot handle the truth, and you just cannot fix stupid, no matter how hard you try.
Some new members take the advice and learn from it to grow in their understanding, and use their common sense, and learn to recover and refine their precious metals.
These are normally thankful for the advice, once they understood more about it.
Some do not wish to spend the effort to learn.
Some think they are too smart, or cleaver, and do not have enough common sense to learn, and just blow up and begin to bite back at the very people who are trying to help them.
What is the Beef? We have been trying to be helpful to, and respectful to all our new members, including the one in this thread, and trying to tell them how it is, to help them see the dangers involved, and point them where to begin learning, warn them of the dangers involved, to help them from hurting themselves and others.
Can we help it if some people come here thinking they know everything, walking into a gunpowder factory with a lit cigar in between there teeth, asking to learn how to get out of the last mess they caused.
Some people just cannot handle the truth, and you just cannot fix stupid, no matter how hard you try.
Some new members take the advice and learn from it to grow in their understanding, and use their common sense, and learn to recover and refine their precious metals.
These are normally thankful for the advice, once they understood more about it.
Some do not wish to spend the effort to learn.
Some think they are too smart, or cleaver, and do not have enough common sense to learn, and just blow up and begin to bite back at the very people who are trying to help them.
I have zero mercy for people who resurrect threads to complain in unintelligible gibberish and misrepresent the facts of the situation. No one disrespected him, or the thread starter.
Sure, some people get jumped when they come here. I got a little flak when I came here too. What's with all the people who can't take their lumps, move on, and be productive? The point of the matter is to think before acting and at least make an effort to exhaust the vast resources of this forum, the web, and our oft-reiterated "recommended reading". We just want the newbs to understand that health, safety, and environment is THE priority. There's a lot to this type of science, and the basics must be understood. One doesn't run without having learned to walk.
Many users here can learn only by doing, and really, there is no substitute for actually doing it. Some learn by watching. Some by reading. Different strokes, right?
All the original poster was told was to slow his roll. He's a chemical engineer, not a chemist (hell of a difference in my personal experience!!!) and in many of his posts, he was dead wrong, and a bit defensive. I can't, don't and won't attempt to read every post here, but if I'd have seen this one, I'd have been happy to try and help. I also understand when someone comes and says, "I'm a chemical engineer, or a PhD, or grand high vizier of science" they're expecting to be treated with a modicum of respect for their education.
No one is under any obligation to answer any post--help, knowledge, etc. is contributed as freely as the contributor wishes.
Sure, some people get jumped when they come here. I got a little flak when I came here too. What's with all the people who can't take their lumps, move on, and be productive? The point of the matter is to think before acting and at least make an effort to exhaust the vast resources of this forum, the web, and our oft-reiterated "recommended reading". We just want the newbs to understand that health, safety, and environment is THE priority. There's a lot to this type of science, and the basics must be understood. One doesn't run without having learned to walk.
Many users here can learn only by doing, and really, there is no substitute for actually doing it. Some learn by watching. Some by reading. Different strokes, right?
All the original poster was told was to slow his roll. He's a chemical engineer, not a chemist (hell of a difference in my personal experience!!!) and in many of his posts, he was dead wrong, and a bit defensive. I can't, don't and won't attempt to read every post here, but if I'd have seen this one, I'd have been happy to try and help. I also understand when someone comes and says, "I'm a chemical engineer, or a PhD, or grand high vizier of science" they're expecting to be treated with a modicum of respect for their education.
No one is under any obligation to answer any post--help, knowledge, etc. is contributed as freely as the contributor wishes.
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2007
- Messages
- 8,360
BigBraintheory said:
I'm giving you an opportunity to post an apology for your poor choice of words, and your attack on moderators. You have until Saturday evening to get it done, at which time you, sir, will be history on this board. And, if you persist and register again, we'll have our resident junk yard dog discuss your actions with your ISP, because you will have worn out your welcome.
If you choose to spend time on this board, you damned well better be on your best behavior. I don't tolerate anyone with attitude.
Harold
