Electrochemistry newly set up sulphuric cell not working

[futurama140]

I have plenty of viable cucl2, but running kovar pins through the AP/cucl2 would use up ridiculous amounts of my stock for the yield.
Nitric acid is out of the question for the same reason as sulphuric is now: I cant source it.

And so let's change the terminology then to satisfy: It is no longer a sulphuric cell, it's a reverse electroplating cell which uses "X" as it's electrolyte, as sulphuric acid is unsourcable. I need to solve for X.

 

[jimdoc]

Where are you located?

 

[patnor1011]

I have plenty of viable cucl2, but running kovar pins through the AP/cucl2 would use up ridiculous amounts of my stock for the yield.
Nitric acid is out of the question for the same reason as sulphuric is now: I cant source it.

And so let's change the terminology then to satisfy: It is no longer a sulphuric cell, it's a reverse electroplating cell which uses "X" as it's electrolyte, as sulphuric acid is unsourcable. I need to solve for X.

If you cant source proper reagents find yourself another hobby.

 

[Barren Realms 007]

i cannot source sulphuric acid in any other form than battery acid anywhere within a hundred miles, includsing drain cleaners with sulphuric. what other electrolytes can be used?

No where within 100 miles..... I find that kind of hard to believe for the most part.

There should be a local plumbing supply house some where close to you that should be able to supply this for you. Note this is not the same thing as a hardware store. This is a business that is for plumbers. This supply house should carry sulphuric acid drain cleaner. If you can't find a supply house call a local plumber and tell them what you are looking for, a local supply house and see where that can lead you.

 

[jason_recliner]

And so let's change the terminology then to satisfy: It is no longer a sulphuric cell, it's a reverse electroplating cell which uses "X" as it's electrolyte, as sulphuric acid is unsourcable. I need to solve for X.

Well you could replace X with soapy water. You may still deplate but it will only deplate dirt. Not gold.
I'm not being pedantic for terminology sake, valid as that would be in its own right in a field like this. If you change the electrolyte then you completely change the reaction. Or more precisely, you don't get one that dissolves gold around the anode zone.

If there were an alternate deplating cell with safer (read: more readily available), cheaper chemicals, then everyone would be doing it. By all means do your own research but this particular wheel is round because others have found it rolls better that way.

Your best alternative if you have CuCl2 is to spend just a little of it, not all of it, to help kickstart some new HCl. I have dissolved kovar tabs that way.

 

[g_axelsson]

And so let's change the terminology then to satisfy: It is no longer a sulphuric cell, it's a reverse electroplating cell which uses "X" as it's electrolyte, as sulphuric acid is unsourcable. I need to solve for X.

You just can't change the terminology and think that is solving the problem. A reverse plating cell uses sulfuric acid because of it's unique chemistry. Without sulfuric acid it isn't a reverse plating cell.

Göran

 

[Smack]

I have plenty of viable cucl2, but running kovar pins through the AP/cucl2 would use up ridiculous amounts of my stock for the yield.
Nitric acid is out of the question for the same reason as sulphuric is now: I cant source it.

And so let's change the terminology then to satisfy: It is no longer a sulphuric cell, it's a reverse electroplating cell which uses "X" as it's electrolyte, as sulphuric acid is unsourcable. I need to solve for X.

Same question as Jim. What is your location? All the years I've been on this forum, that is one thing I would like to see from people. List at least a state if your in the US.

 

[jimdoc]

It seems even your car battery can kill you while you drive.

http://weaponsman.com/?p=35901

 

[Shark]

If you can't find the proper supplies it is time to go another route. You have already tried tried using the wrong form of sulfuric acid, used it with electricity. That combination is enough to start raising the temperature of the acid. Between those three alone you have created a very deadly combination.

Most of my pins end up in old used AP or being ran through my stock pot. The main reason why is because I don't like doing pins from old household computers. It just doesn't produce much gold for the work involved. If you have these low grade pins in large quantity, then you need to give up on sourcing second best chemicals and spend the money and source quality chemicals and equipment. If you don't have large quantities, put them in old AP, and forget them for a while. Give yourself one month to wait. Check them every day or two and give them a good stir. When all the metal is dissolved you can start working on your next problem. The problem with this method is you still haven't thought far enough ahead. But, by planning for a month waiting period, you have a month to learn the theory behind your next step. If you don't have a month for learning, you should consider another area of income. Yes, a cell might produce it faster, but the trade off is the hazards involved. Whether I put my pins in AP or the stockpot, I have time to get other things done, while my gold is being worked on. If I run them in a cell, I am stuck right there until they are done. Which ever way you go there are upsides and downsides. Until you know how to use both, your still in the learning phase.

Pass along your location, and most likely, someone will find you a source. Knowing a source doesn't mean you have to use it, it just gives you more options.

 

[Geo]

As a side note, What you are doing in the photos is an actual process that has been used with some success. It's basically parting the copper content out of the pins. It's not the most efficient way but you are removing copper content from the pins. If you had an inert basket or had the pins piled above the level of the solution so the contact point is not eroded, you can literally suck the copper content out of the pins. Just let what your doing continue, in a safe manner, until no more copper deposits on the cathode. It will not leave clean foils but it will leave a less contaminated material to work with. You may have stumbled upon something that you can make work to your benefit.

 

[futurama140]

I'm in the northeastern corner of colorado.

After going to store after store after store since yesterday afternoon, I managed to find ONE Lowe's in this whole part of the state that carried 93% "virgin buffered sulphuric acid" drain cleaner. This is working fine while my battery acid is concentrating on the low heat of an old drip coffee machine's warmer. It has reduced by approx. 20% so far, and copper I accidentally dissolved in it before is precipitating to the bottom.

the main problem now, and I may find an answer soon, is where to get a 10 amp manual battery charger.
Bought an automatic first, not knowing, time to return it.
second one we bought was a 2/35/200amp charger from the pawn shop, it's manual, but we bought the fricken thing this morning and it doesnt even work more than sparking when the leads are touched together.(this is how the pawn shop told us they tested to see if it works)
Now i'm using a 1 amp motorcycle battery trickle charger that cycles on and off every minute or so. it's slow going but so far the only charger that's working.

*editted for clarifying remark

 

[Shark]

Do a search for Kadrivers post about his silver cell. In it he uses a power supply from a computer. I use them also, but his post will teach you a lot about cells in general. They are usually cheap, especially if you have access to broken computer parts. I prefer the older model with an on/off switch but isn't a necessary requirement.

edit for spelling

 

[Platdigger]

With your automatic charger, if you hook it to a battery, then from there to your cell, it should work.
Even though it is an automatic charger make sure you don't overcharge your battery using it this way.
Just as temporary fix until you can get anther charger or power supply.

 

[g_axelsson]

With your automatic charger, if you hook it to a battery, then from there to your cell, it should work.
Even though it is an automatic charger make sure you don't overcharge your battery using it this way.
Just as temporary fix until you can get anther charger or power supply.

If you do it, put a light bulb between the battery and the sulfuric cell to limit the current if you get a short between the electrodes.
A battery charger can deliver a limited amount of current and often comes with a fuse. A battery on the other hand can easily deliver hundreds of amperes and can create an explosion if shorted, for example by a piece of scrap falling off or if you drop the basket. Even the gold powder collecting on the bottom can short out the cell.

Göran

 

[jason_recliner]

...my battery acid is concentrating on the low heat of an old drip coffee machine's warmer. It has reduced by approx. 20% so far...

I am concerned about what you are trying to achieve here, considering the previous advice given. You are still trying to concentrate this acid, even after you have bought some of the good stuff?

Think for a minute... Sulfuric acid is generally considered by our collective governmental nannies to be too dangerous for the common man. So much so that it's generally hard to source. As you have attested, there are a few remnant hardware sources in your country, and none whatsoever in mine.

Now with the above in mind, professional refiners here are accustomed to using H2SO4, maybe even daily. And they are not scared of it, per se, but I tell you they definitely respect it.
And these same people who may handle 98% H2SO4 on perhaps a daily basis, even with the obvious complacency that would bring, are warning you not to attempt to evaporate-concentrate sulphuric because even they consider that process to be too dangerous.

Take heed.

 

[futurama140]

indeed i am taking caution with concentrating the acid, on nothing more than a warmer from a coffee pot, i am not so much boiling it as just keeping it warm enough to air evaporate, as I am doing this outside and it is becoming cold here. the warmer/carafe is in a fume hood outside, far from anything it may damage in case of emergency. I keep far more baking soda within a dozen paces also just in case of emergency. I have PPE as well, except for a respirator, which i fully intend to purchase when i can afford it in the next few days.

I do have respect for the power of the acid, but i am not going to dispose of acid i paid good money for because it has water in it. I don't think i can be much more cautious with the method of reduction/concentration that i am using.

I am definitely listening to you who expound and/or lecture on the dangers of sulphuric and concentrating it, and that is why i am being so cautious.

the 1 amp motorcycle battery trickle charger IS working, actually, I only get through about a handful of the high-yield milspec pins every hour, but that's OK because it's still VASTLY faster than trying to run pins like these through fresh AP or my stock pot of cucl2. the next rinse with hcl to remove remaining BMs, dissolving with hcl/cl and precipitation with SMB are all very quick relatively.

after this whole batch of (a couple pounds? i dont have a scale yet) pins, i will be able to buy the proper battery charger from the local battery store, so i think this setup i have going is working well enough to produce the kind of gold i need to re-invest back into this process on better and more efficient equipment.

would anyone here suggest using reagent grade sulphuric acid over the drain cleaner? it seems to me the viscosity of the drain cleaner is much more safe, but the reagent grade acid would allow the gold particles to sink faster.

Is this then a personal preference or is one objectively better than the other for this process?

 

[upcyclist]

Nobody is saying you should DISPOSE of your battery acid, just that you should reconsider concentrating it. There are other uses for sulfuric acid for a refiner, including precipitating lead sulfate and one method of converting silver chloride to elemental silver.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

 

[futurama140]

Also, thank you so much for the tips on the automatic chargers, guys. I really am studying all the available information out there, but i have to divide my time between the chemistry, electrochemistry and electrical and mechanical engineering, it's quite a task!
It would be way off topic to talk about my learning style, but suffice to say, trying and failing with hands-on experience teaches me much more deep-seated knowledge than just reading about it. "why isnt this working?" and "how can I fudge it to work?" are VERY informative questions for me to ask, and for the most part, most of you have been extremely helpful, thank you. I will post a picture of the new clean, non-reactive area the cell is being used in with as much precaution as I can muster.

goldsilverpro, i figured as much. i've heard plenty about people using non-lead cathodes, and for a temporary measure using stainless. thanks for that practical knowledge, though. I am going to head out to the prairie to the shooting range to collect some lead to use as a cathode here in the next few days. right now, i'm just using a stainless steel butter knife and the cell itself is in a pyrex dish identical to many i've seen in videos of small-scale cells, and the knife seems to be working just great so far. the real problem i'm having is the pins dont always make a solid connection with the copper anode, and i have to go check on a batch every few minutes and stir it to make sure all the pins are making contact. have you personally ever had that issue?

 

[goldsilverpro]

On the question concerning the cathode material.

I ran a 50 gallon sulfuric stripper, daily, for several years, using plating racks and plating barrels for the parts. The same solution lasted about 2 years before it needed changing. I settled and harvested the gold every 2 weeks, or so. I had a 2nd tank to prevent losing any production time during the harvesting.

When I first experimented with this, I did so in a 4 liter non-magnetic stainless beaker, which I also used as the cathode. After a week or so, holes appeared in the beaker. I have not used stainless as a cathode since then. I think the H2SO4 attacked the nickel in the stainless.

After more experimenting, I found that regular mild steel worked fine as a cathode. I had the 50 gallon production tank constructed out of about 1/8" (or maybe 3/16") mild steel and used the tank, itself, as the cathode. After several years, there was still no obvious visual damage to the tank.

I might mention that I never exceeded 5 amps per gallon of solution (a little over 1 amp per liter). This kept the solution temp below the max recommended level of about 105F. At least 90% of the problems forum members have with this solution is that they run too much amperage, which, in turn, overheats the solution. When the solution exceeds 105-110F, the copper of the anode basket and the copper base metal of the pins, etc., are attacked and this causes all sorts of problems. Most of the stuff I ran was mounted on racks made of bare (uncoated) 1/4" yellow brass square stock. By not exceeding 105F, these racks lasted for years without any attack.

 

[futurama140]

goldsilverpro:
so in this situation, i have 0.94 liters of the drain cleaner and i am running only 1 amp through the cell. that is a good ratio then? it hasn't noticably risen temperature beyond the ambient outside temperature since I started.