I think a little slack is always allowable for any member who's first language isn't English, translations are rarely as you think or say.
nitric solution too thick for filtration....
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Topher_osAUrus
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FrugalRefiner said:
You are probably right.
Hope so anyways, if not, he doesn't know what he is missing!
As a non native English speaker I interpreted it as he was a bit frustrated by getting a lecture instead of a straight answer, but still grateful in the end and will continue to study. I can be wrong thou... 
Göran
Göran
Geo
Well-known member
It is best to filter saturated solutions hot. When the solution cools, salts are formed. These salts clog the filter and make filtering harder. If you must cool the solution, let everything settle completely and draw the clear solution off of the solids first. That will speed up the process even if you have to wait for everything to settle.
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Filtering is one of the most frustrating processes some times.
A fresh filter paper will not always stop all particles,some times I find I have to run a little sediment through to reduce the pore size before a paper becomes truly effective.
This is not too much trouble as all you do is empty your buncher flask once yous see a clear flow and keep going.
But then the life of the paper is limited because the same action will soon render it water tight.
I have been looking for a buchner funnel with a top and a tube so you can better control what part of the liquor you take off.
if you could leave the beaker still and "Vacuum" up the fluid as you would do with a Vacuum cleaner that would save some farting around and disturbing sediment .
A fresh filter paper will not always stop all particles,some times I find I have to run a little sediment through to reduce the pore size before a paper becomes truly effective.
This is not too much trouble as all you do is empty your buncher flask once yous see a clear flow and keep going.
But then the life of the paper is limited because the same action will soon render it water tight.
I have been looking for a buchner funnel with a top and a tube so you can better control what part of the liquor you take off.
if you could leave the beaker still and "Vacuum" up the fluid as you would do with a Vacuum cleaner that would save some farting around and disturbing sediment .
Topher_osAUrus
Well-known member
Forgive my misinterpretation fyatim. Happy to hear I was wrong.
Justin, that would be a pretty handy thing to have, wouldn't it?
Would make life much easier than using a suction bulb or pipette, and having that then go through the filter. I'll have to do some searching now, as that surely has to be an available piece of lab gear.
Justin, that would be a pretty handy thing to have, wouldn't it?
Would make life much easier than using a suction bulb or pipette, and having that then go through the filter. I'll have to do some searching now, as that surely has to be an available piece of lab gear.
Justin the one suggestion I can give you is to move your filter below the level of the beaker and simply symphony your clearer solution off and into your filter or if the solution is still fuming syphon into another vessel and pour it into the filter.
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Yes it would be handy ,emptying a 20L flask with a Pipette is a bit of a pain.Topher_osAUrus said:
Been there Dun That. :lol:
Thanks Nick,I do let settle and use siphoning for larger batches just use a wash bottle to fill the tube.
But this is a little bit fiddly for the 2000ml to 5000ml batches, having an on demand vacuum system would save a bit of time.
A bit run off my feet so every second counts.lucky if I get the time for one good run a week.
Just got off an extra night shift,have a client booked in first thing this after noon.
sleep or filter
Topher_osAUrus
Well-known member
For big batches of a litre or more, I use a big suction bulb.
I believe in a previous life, it was meant to be a "booger sucker" for newborns. It can get a good bit of solution in each squeeze.
I can take a picture for you tomorrow if youd like.
Surprisingly, both of mine have lasted well over a year and are still holding up strong. ...thank goodness, because I don't want to have another child, just to get the complimentary booger sucker from the hospital so I can use it in my shop.
...I'm sure they sell similar ones at the store though.
Also, a nice auto siphon device, is available at a local beer brew store, they had them as small as a 10-12" and as large as 5 foot long, or so.
I like using them, as they dont add the extra water to start the siphon. The two I have, have held up for quite a while as well.
I believe in a previous life, it was meant to be a "booger sucker" for newborns. It can get a good bit of solution in each squeeze.
I can take a picture for you tomorrow if youd like.
Surprisingly, both of mine have lasted well over a year and are still holding up strong. ...thank goodness, because I don't want to have another child, just to get the complimentary booger sucker from the hospital so I can use it in my shop.
...I'm sure they sell similar ones at the store though.
Also, a nice auto siphon device, is available at a local beer brew store, they had them as small as a 10-12" and as large as 5 foot long, or so.
I like using them, as they dont add the extra water to start the siphon. The two I have, have held up for quite a while as well.
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Yes I also have some large lab pipettes with various valves so you can get up to 200ml.Topher_osAUrus said:For big batches of a litre or more, I use a big suction bulb.
I believe in a previous life, it was meant to be a "booger sucker" for newborns. It can get a good bit of solution in each squeeze.
I can take a picture for you tomorrow if youd like.
Surprisingly, both of mine have lasted well over a year and are still holding up strong. ...thank goodness, because I don't want to have another child, just to get the complimentary booger sucker from the hospital so I can use it in my shop.
...I'm sure they sell similar ones at the store though.
Also, a nice auto siphon device, is available at a local beer brew store, they had them as small as a 10-12" and as large as 5 foot long, or so.
I like using them, as they don't add the extra water to start the siphon. The two I have, have held up for quite a while as well.
I find they tend to loos the odd drip of fluid so I only use them very carefully :roll: .
Topher_osAUrus
Well-known member
Yeah, that is one of the downfalls of the pipette/suction bulb that I have encountered too. Especially if the solution is hot and the bulb is cold, then all hell can break loose!
But, for the random drip, I just use a watchglass or small beaker underneath the tip when im goin back and forth. When its all said and done, I rinse that out, and use that diluted solution to begin rinsing out the filter of the more pregnant liquor. Then continue with the water rinsing.
It's all about the little tips and tricks to go along with the correct processes, isn't it?
But, for the random drip, I just use a watchglass or small beaker underneath the tip when im goin back and forth. When its all said and done, I rinse that out, and use that diluted solution to begin rinsing out the filter of the more pregnant liquor. Then continue with the water rinsing.
It's all about the little tips and tricks to go along with the correct processes, isn't it?
upcyclist
Well-known member
For siphoning, when maintaining purity is not of the essence (like draining waste liquors), I just keep some narrow flexible tubing in a mason jar full of distilled water. Pick up one end of the tubing and pinch it, then pull the rest out. Now you have a primed siphon tube. I can also drain some of that water in the jar to flush the tubing when I'm done.
Of course, a quick flush doesn't get all the solution off the inside of the tubing, much less the outside. When the distilled water doesn't look so distilled anymore (cloudy or colored), it can can always join the waste stream.
Of course, a quick flush doesn't get all the solution off the inside of the tubing, much less the outside. When the distilled water doesn't look so distilled anymore (cloudy or colored), it can can always join the waste stream.
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Topher_osAUrus said:Especially if the solution is hot and the bulb is cold, then all hell can break loose!
I do not like filtering hot solutions.
They wreck other wise hardened filter papers,Over fume,and hold other wise insoluble compounds in solution.
I alleyway's leave to cool,If they are too thick to filter readily I just go back to gravity filtering and leave them in a very big funnel for a day or two.adding H2O when every they look depleted..most soluble compounds work there way through.
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justinhcase said:Topher_osAUrus said:Especially if the solution is hot and the bulb is cold, then all hell can break loose!
I do not like filtering hot solutions.
They wreck other wise hardened filter papers,Over fume,and hold other wise insoluble compounds in solution.
I alleyway's leave to cool,If they are too thick to filter readily I just go back to gravity filtering and leave them in a very big funnel for a day or two.adding H2O when every they look depleted..most soluble compounds work there way through.
Filtering hot solutions is fine if you have the right kit to do it and haven't loaded the solutions with H2SO4 using Sulphamic acid. That's one of the things eats the filters. This post has nothing to do with the fact that I dislike you Justin it's merely an opinion based upon the fact that I disagree with you. Do feel free to come back with an articulate reply. Or not as may be the case.
Topher_osAUrus
Well-known member
Well, here is my two cents worth (afterall, what can you really get with a couple pennies nowadays?)
Sometimes it is better to filter hot, sometimes it is better to filter cold. If I don't have any AgCl in the mix, then I have no quarrels with running it through the filter while its hot. I haven't had much trouble with any paper getting chewed up, but more times than not, when I am filtering while hot I have a charmin plug underneath the filter paper, so it moderately supports some of the fluid and keeps it from blowing straight through. I see the benefit in both, and do both.
The hot stuff, seems to filter much quicker and also seems to have the majority of the junk settle on the bottom of the beaker faster too, so not as much of it gets caught in the filter. The cold stuff, doesn't fume you out of the building, and isn't a bear to handle. Also, I need not mention silver chloride won't be mucking up the precipitation. (..wait, that IS mentioning it, isn't it.. :roll: )
Although, I have started to take the stance as some others on the board, that the first time gold is in solution, it's a recovery, even if it is from some perfectly run inquarted gold. I just choose to think of it as recovery and the minute amount of contaminants that come through, will be alleviated with the washes or the next solution of the gold.
note to the mods/admin, can we get a heart emoji? :mrgreen: :twisted:
Sometimes it is better to filter hot, sometimes it is better to filter cold. If I don't have any AgCl in the mix, then I have no quarrels with running it through the filter while its hot. I haven't had much trouble with any paper getting chewed up, but more times than not, when I am filtering while hot I have a charmin plug underneath the filter paper, so it moderately supports some of the fluid and keeps it from blowing straight through. I see the benefit in both, and do both.
The hot stuff, seems to filter much quicker and also seems to have the majority of the junk settle on the bottom of the beaker faster too, so not as much of it gets caught in the filter. The cold stuff, doesn't fume you out of the building, and isn't a bear to handle. Also, I need not mention silver chloride won't be mucking up the precipitation. (..wait, that IS mentioning it, isn't it..
:roll: )Although, I have started to take the stance as some others on the board, that the first time gold is in solution, it's a recovery, even if it is from some perfectly run inquarted gold. I just choose to think of it as recovery and the minute amount of contaminants that come through, will be alleviated with the washes or the next solution of the gold.
note to the mods/admin, can we get a heart emoji? :mrgreen: :twisted:
Sulfamic is a great trick but not one that you should feel warrants overuse of nitric acid. Paper and sulfuric acid don't get along well, and paper with hot sulfuric is even worse.
And I always prefer to filter cold. In fact one of the things I tell clients to acquire from auction sites is a commercial ice maker. Helps the acid to get cold fast and assures any silver is out of the aqua regia because it's cold and the solubility is at its lowest.
Members of this forum tend to know their scrap pretty well, so an argument saying there is no silver may be valid. Commercially, often they do not know whether or not to expect silver so i prefer to err on the side of assuming it all has silver.
Plus a hot solution fumes while you are pouring and working with it. Cool to cold solutions are rather tame. Considering how many members idea of a hood is the back yard with a slight wind, solutions that aren't fumey are a plus.
And I always prefer to filter cold. In fact one of the things I tell clients to acquire from auction sites is a commercial ice maker. Helps the acid to get cold fast and assures any silver is out of the aqua regia because it's cold and the solubility is at its lowest.
Members of this forum tend to know their scrap pretty well, so an argument saying there is no silver may be valid. Commercially, often they do not know whether or not to expect silver so i prefer to err on the side of assuming it all has silver.
Plus a hot solution fumes while you are pouring and working with it. Cool to cold solutions are rather tame. Considering how many members idea of a hood is the back yard with a slight wind, solutions that aren't fumey are a plus.
Geo
Well-known member
For the beginner or the less prepared, I agree on filtering cold. The only stipulation is allowing time for everything to settle. Often times, filtering is unnecessary. I allow everything to settle and draw the clear solution from the top down. The last little bit of solution and any solids gets washed into a smaller beaker and allowed to settle again. By the time I am washing it into a 50ml beaker, there's no gold left and only wash water.
This may not be an option if you are working with someone else's material and have to finish it quickly. A good vacuum filter rig is fairly cheap on Ebay and comes with a cheap hand pump. I bought a 100ml vacuum flask kit with two 70ml porcelain buchner funnels for $29 and free shipping.
This may not be an option if you are working with someone else's material and have to finish it quickly. A good vacuum filter rig is fairly cheap on Ebay and comes with a cheap hand pump. I bought a 100ml vacuum flask kit with two 70ml porcelain buchner funnels for $29 and free shipping.
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As karat gold is my main stock that must be why I never need to filter hot.4metals said:
I have looked at other material but karat pays where as the rest is only for experimental purposes at the quantity's I can get.
The karat gold makes my silver economical so I just about only run inquartation's
