NTR Metals , seems to be the best refiner I can find

[Lou]

Ok, I looked deeper at soaccurate, they host "gold parties"....

I saw some comments online that state they do buy gold direct in the 90-95% range. Thats ok for the general public or a 1 time sale but I look more for the honest refiners in the range above 95%.

I buy and sell direct, dont see a need for any additional middlemen.

NTR is a middleman. North Texas Refining they may call themselves, but do you think they do all the refining? Their silver, their PGMs? Middlemen again.
I'm not a particular fan of NTR and I've known and done business people with the company and who have left the company. Let me just say that I don't sell my gold to them. They have done well for themselves, so they must be doing something very right.

 

[Palladium]

Deception as a first step sure doesn't promote the image of honesty as a refiner or ethical business practices. Makes me sad.

Yeah maybe i should have clarified that remark. It wasn't meant to be directed at you bodyworks. It was meant as a general statement as to how much honesty is REALLY in the refining field as a whole. You were making comparisons between truthful and untruthful companies and my statement was meant to reflect the displeasure many customers have when dealing with refiners.

I to would like to see him stick around.

 

[babytrilly]

NTR only deals with business gold sellers, and they pay 98% on gold without any assay fees.You can visit an NTR office by appointment and be right there as they XRF the metals and be out the door with a check in about a half hour to and hour.

If anyone else has had dealings with NTR Metals please comment on your experiences.

We experienced one time a Pd powder sample that measured >85% via XRF and NTR said it was 45%. Needless to say, we did not sell it to them. Much has to do with the experience of the person behind the instrument at a particular location.

Recently, we found out that a new customer of ours, who keeps extensive and very detailed spreadsheets of the gold purchased by his various stores, compared the payout he had been getting from various buyers (including NTR) and has determined that our 95% payout based on a well calibrated XRF is equivalent to those who claim they pay 98%. We run a NIST traceable 14k yellow gold standard (as well as 10K) right before and after their ingot is tested. This customer had tried various places in the Michigan area and is so far quite happy with a lower percentage but with higher accuracy. I can believe that a refinery can pay 98-99%, but someone who melts/assays is in very risky grounds when paying 98% if their instrument is well calibrated.

My recent sale to NTR, I was present at the XRF machine, and they did test a 24 karat standard bar right in front of me.

To really tell they should run something representative of your sample. If you have scrap jewelry that runs around 12Kt then measuring something like 24kt only tells you that at the high end of the curve (pure gold) their instrument is accurate. Run a standard 14kt yellow gold for example and see how their instrument measures. If their curve is skewed at the lower end, then measuring right on on pure gold says nothing about the accuracy of the analysis for a sample of scrap jewelry which can average maybe 45-62% Au.

Hope this helps someone.

 

[Lou]

It's nice to see people who bring true professionalism to the field.

 

[Noxx]

To really tell they should run something representative of your sample. If you have scrap jewelry that runs around 12Kt then measuring something like 24kt only tells you that at the high end of the curve (pure gold) their instrument is accurate. Run a standard 14kt yellow gold for example and see how their instrument measures. If their curve is skewed at the lower end, then measuring right on on pure gold says nothing about the accuracy of the analysis for a sample of scrap jewelry which can average maybe 45-62% Au.

Hope this helps someone.

Ya, thanks for the input.

 

[MiguelRosas]

Bodyworkz - As a representative of a refinery, I stay very quiet on the boards, however I do actively read several posts and have learned a lot about strategy, techniques, and flat out wants and needs of many "regulars" on this forum. I can humbly say that I am far from the most knowledgable member here, and take several steps back just to learn. However, when I do engage, I recommend you be mindful and respectful of this close community.

I have been refining ,buying and selling precious metals for around 10 years.

I have dealt with Northern Refineries (They have several names) and just reciently Dillon gage. Those 2 places pay only about 70% or less even though they addvertise 95%(NR), 98%(DG) and both are outright crooks.I have had gold mixed up with other lots, stolen etc when dealing with these 2 places.

This is a bold statement, and as an individual- calling hugely successful companies "Crooks" is difficult to swallow.
As a professional, each story has two sides - and although we advertise 92% & 95% for silver - should you send us 20% silver content sludge, our payout will fall far under the advertised price. And for a client (or former client) of mine to make a claim that my company is a crook based on this situation, is quite unfair and far from the truth.

Regardless of my personal bias regarding the mentioned company - I have heard several success stories from prospects that will NEVER leave them, yet I have also heard many horror stories, which I am sure many would agree with applies to ANY company in ANY industry.

Kitco has a somewhat fair price,but I have found NTR Metals to be higher payout.

Spot price is spot price no matter who you are dealing with. If you see on KITCO 1540, and NTR is 1542 - all this means is that NTR's quotes update faster than the delayed quote of KITCO. Like the stock market, you can go to CNBC.com and see a 20 min. delay on the market, or you can pay for the software to see tick by tick quotes. If you are a day trader, which will you use vs. if you are just investing your money long term? My point is, NTR is NOT paying you more money because they want too, they may just have different software. There are plenty of other forms of finding out what the LIVE market value is, so please use those for your own basis and locking spot price rather than relying on delayed data.

NTR has about 40 locations in the USA and some in the UK.
http://www.ntrmetals.com

NTR only deals with business gold sellers, and they pay 98% on gold without any assay fees.You can visit an NTR office by appointment and be right there as they XRF the metals and be out the door with a check in about a half hour to and hour.

If anyone else has had dealings with NTR Metals please comment on your experiences.

Personally this sounds way to much like a sales pitch. Only briefly did you describe your experience with them, and you did not mention any names or describe the atmosphere that is so common place when simply reviewing a company.

I use YELP.com constantly, and at no time do my reviews pitch the location like a pitch (and I'm a salesmen, all i do is pitch). I would like to hear more about what you liked, what you didn't like - what research you did that led you to choose them vs. any other refinery, etc.

Like I said, I do not post often, however when I can take the opportunity to voice a different opinion and learn how to better the company I work for through "your" experience with other refiners - I will jump on it.

Kindest,
Miguel

 

[goldsilverpro]

Bodyworkz is no longer a member of the forum.

 

[MiguelRosas]

Dern!

In my opinion, if you don't have ill intentions, then the "attitude" the thread presented should be easily brushed off. (Unless he was kicked off - then he'll just have a fake profile back up soon)

 

[Lou]

He was a big fan of proxy servers so he's probably reading this right now.

I just hope he uses the information here to perfect his own processes. I know professional refiners come here for questions and for research.

Hive mind.

 

[teabone]

Its been a while since I posted anything on the forum , I'm more or less content to just read the posts for information or entertainment as is the case here. I thought I would throw in my two cents worth since I've had dealings with bodyworkz and with NTR. I use to buy urea from bodyworkz on a regular basis until I found a cheaper place. I never had a problem with his products and he always shipped fast.
I have used several different refiners over the past couple of years and I finally found NTR to be as good as any of the others , but with a decided advantage . They pay out settlements within the hour , if you deliver in person, which is what I do. I use to deal with ARA and they paid out about the same , but it would take two weeks to get a settlement check.
Having a much faster turnaround makes the difference for me. Anyway thats my input on NTR and bodyworkz , for whatever its worth.

 

[Honesty21]

I've dealt with NTR metals many times over the past 3 months and with mixed results. My only way of testing is to use the acids 10, 14, 18, 22 and my experience of 35 years handling precious metals. I do not consider myself savvy, but I'm with it enough to calculate what a batch of gold is worth given the percentages of mixed karats. You who are experienced refiners will most likely chuckle. My batches are composed of jewelry 10, 14 and 18 karat. I acid test, separate, weigh each karat so I have an idea what I'm submitting. I relize that the money is made in the assay. Every batch I've taken to said refinery weighs in at 0.1 to 0.4 less than my scale and I usually ok it. After melt weight loss are around 0.75 -1.0 percent. Some of my assays have been favorable and some not. I question the ones that are not. My latest experince was one of them: Check in at 0.5 dwt. short, Before melt 113.0 dwt after melt 112.4 dwt, I brought 71.4 dwt 14kt, 10.4 dwt. 10 kt, and 31.7 dwt 18kt. The assay was 54.14%. I accepted it, because I need the cash flow and if it were tested after melt it may have well been 54%. Where did the rest go? Maybe the 18kt was pulled and a sub tossed in? Who knows. They could always say there was a piece of gold filled mixed in. I've had better assays with them, but it alsways seems like for every 2 good I get a whack. My net retuns have been about 90-96%. Also on this last run, I scrapped some sterling flatware which is usually a 92% assay. This time, however, it came up short on the weigh in and assayed at 88.92%??? I wouldn't mind dealing with a refiner who payed 97% but did a fair assay. Then I would receive 96-97% steadily, instead of 92-96% with doubts about integrity.

Sometimes I process the karats separately to try for a better return but I still get hosed.

 

[4metals]

By my calculations it should be at least a 60% assay. I made a few assumptions; I assume after 35 years you know how to test metals and everything you called 10 k was, 14k was etc. I also assume no gold filled or plated got through as karat gold.

So,

71.4 dwt 14k figured at 56.33 yields 40.219 dwt fine gold
10.4 dwt 10k figured at 39.66 yields 4.124 dwt fine gold
31.7 dwt 18k figured at 73.00 yields 23.141 dwt fine gold

total fine gold content 67.484 dwt

melted weight is 112.4 dwt A half pennyweight loss on melt is actually pretty low considering it is used jewelry which has dirt in he crevices etc. You have to give them that one. Besides melt losses do to volitilization don't lose precious metals, usually it's zinc.

assay = 67.484/112.4 = 60.03 % gold

notice I assumed 2% low for each karat assay, that makes up for solder and any legally under karat goods

They were almost 6% under the conservative estimate above.

That 6% is almost $350 at $1730 gold.

These NTR stories are piling up, any defense out there?

 

[MiguelRosas]

I've dealt with NTR metals many times over the past 3 months and with mixed results. My only way of testing is to use the acids 10, 14, 18, 22 and my experience of 35 years handling precious metals. I do not consider myself savvy, but I'm with it enough to calculate what a batch of gold is worth given the percentages of mixed karats. You who are experienced refiners will most likely chuckle. My batches are composed of jewelry 10, 14 and 18 karat. I acid test, separate, weigh each karat so I have an idea what I'm submitting. I relize that the money is made in the assay. Every batch I've taken to said refinery weighs in at 0.1 to 0.4 less than my scale and I usually ok it. After melt weight loss are around 0.75 -1.0 percent. Some of my assays have been favorable and some not. I question the ones that are not. My latest experince was one of them: Check in at 0.5 dwt. short, Before melt 113.0 dwt after melt 112.4 dwt, I brought 71.4 dwt 14kt, 10.4 dwt. 10 kt, and 31.7 dwt 18kt. The assay was 54.14%. I accepted it, because I need the cash flow and if it were tested after melt it may have well been 54%. Where did the rest go? Maybe the 18kt was pulled and a sub tossed in? Who knows. They could always say there was a piece of gold filled mixed in. I've had better assays with them, but it alsways seems like for every 2 good I get a whack. My net retuns have been about 90-96%. Also on this last run, I scrapped some sterling flatware which is usually a 92% assay. This time, however, it came up short on the weigh in and assayed at 88.92%??? I wouldn't mind dealing with a refiner who payed 97% but did a fair assay. Then I would receive 96-97% steadily, instead of 92-96% with doubts about integrity.

Sometimes I process the karats separately to try for a better return but I still get hosed.

Honesty21 -

I would have to agree with 4Metals - even my calculations, which take a 1/2 karat back for estimated purposes - comes out to an assay of 59.38%
or 3.302 ounces of Pure payable gold.


4 Metals -
No defense for NTR specifically, but we had an issue with a client who was claiming shorting on our behalf - so we asked him to cut each piece of scrap in half, and send half to us - and the other half to another refiner (who I wont mention). Although our results remained constant - and "Short" - according to him, we were still significantly higher than the other refinery.

Turns out that the supplier for the scrap had some unique jewelry. It was 10K - with very heavily plated 18K. So on an acid test it was testing 18K, when we cut into it, it looked solid gold, and if you did a scratch test on the center - it still tested high.

Crazy stuff out there.

 

[anakin4070]

Let me be clear in my post. I DO work for a large secondary precious metals recycler. As the term "Refiner" is used way too loosely in this industry. I came across this forum as I was researching NTR a bit further as I have had way to many run ins with all areas of there business. My company has been around only 40 plus years, for you vets you know that this number is relatively small in relation to some of the established companies. I want to express my concern with NTR, if something is too good to be true, it usually is. I've seen settlements from these people. laundry list of services noted at "no charge". So you do your work for free? At above 98.5% return? Who runs a business like that? FREE FREE FREE FREE.....They are making there money somewhere. Rapid turn, rapid pay. Leave alot of room for eyes to be diverted from the process and just to your check. RESEARCH YOUR REFINER.

 

[jack_burton]

Let me be clear in my post. I DO work for a large secondary precious metals recycler. As the term "Refiner" is used way too loosely in this industry. I came across this forum as I was researching NTR a bit further as I have had way to many run ins with all areas of there business. My company has been around only 40 plus years, for you vets you know that this number is relatively small in relation to some of the established companies. I want to express my concern with NTR, if something is too good to be true, it usually is. I've seen settlements from these people. laundry list of services noted at "no charge". So you do your work for free? At above 98.5% return? Who runs a business like that? FREE FREE FREE FREE.....They are making there money somewhere. Rapid turn, rapid pay. Leave alot of room for eyes to be diverted from the process and just to your check. RESEARCH YOUR REFINER.

"Rifiners", yes the word is probably used too liberally, make their return by selling bullion at prices above spot, sometimes 5% or more. So it's a misleading for you to post "how will they get a return buying at 98.5%?" Which, if you have been in the industry for 40 years, I'd think you would know.

That means a "big boy" refiner like NTR is making like 8% when they pay 98% for gold. While my very old school (and successful) father-in-law would say any business not working with a 30% margin will never succeed, making 8% will work for any business doing massive volume. NTR has what, 35 locations worldwide?
I find it hard to believe an organization could grow to such a level and:
a. Constistantly rip people off.
b. Not be making on profit on what they do.

Just my thoughts on the matter. Thanks for reading.

 

[nickvc]

Jack that used to be the case that refiners allied to their bullion houses could sell all of their refined gold and some but with the huge leap in the value of gold and other PMs it no longer holds true.
Most gold refined will go straight onto the market as bullion,bars or coins, and there the margins are very slim, the recession has killed the major consumption of gold whether it be karat jewellery, plated jewellery or for use in electronics, notice the falling yields from e scrap and lower values in newer material.
Many, as you so rightly said, refiners don't actually refine but tie up good deals with the big boys where 99.5% isn't unknown plus any other values present so if they buy at 98 - 98.5% they have a 1 -1.5% margin, not a lot, but if your moving 50 -60 kilos of mixed karat scrap a day, some are and more, it starts to make sense, say it averages out at 50% Au and the total weight is a dead 50kilos you can earn $17000 a day, €85000 a week, plus bonus metals and the fluxes, less the costs, not a bad little earner I'd say. That only covers the gold purchases the silver can be a money spinner as many fail to sort their scrap properly and the white gold that slips through can be a real bonus as can the gold plated silver, if your moving 100 kilos every two weeks with say 0.5% Au that's another €14000 a week.

I can't comment on how accurate the results are that are provided to the customer as I have no
knowledge of any but the UK based companies who I find to be honest, cheap assays are the killer here, but if the assays given are even 0.5% low it adds up to mega amounts over the year.

 

[Dan Dement]

Guys,

I am also a new member of this forum but an old dog in the Jewelry business. Over 40 years mostly in Wholesale Diamond business which is a business were your word means something! Grandfather of three, married to the same woman 43 years, a seventh generation Texan, AGS store, Platinum & Palladium jewelry manufacturer, 1 rated JBT, and rated highly by Dunn &Bradstreet, and been at the same conservative bank for over 30 years. I can go on but I hear your eyes rolling back in you head. I am from the Ronald Reagan School of Trust but Verify. I am on my 3rd XRF machine that is extremely accurate and on my second SG machine. I melt and remelt every 600 gram bar that cash in which is usually several times a week. I multi XRF every bar and usually cut every bar in half to check internal purity. I have tried every method short of fire assay and have been a serious scientific student of the results.

With all this said, I use NTR as my refiner, I find them to be honest people. I have made several on purpose mistakes in their favor and they have pointed out my mistakes. I find that they pay a conservative number as the more you know, it takes an average of readings. Today, they started paying me 98.5% on my payouts. Have I agreed with every payout I have ever received, the honest answer is no. However, this has driven me to refine my methods and techniques, modernize my equipment, and study the results enough for me to recommend them to my friends. My reward for my recommendation is simple, I am helping people I consider to be honest business people and am proud to call my friends. Being a newbie, I am sure happy to have you check a couple of other forums were I have a track record.

Dan Dement

 

[frontiermetals]

Hey guys... I used to post here as J Sargent but had lost my password and so re-registered under my business name, Frontier Metals.

As to NTR Refiners... I love these people. I live between Austin and San Antonio and they have an office in both cities so very convenient for me. Nearly all of my business is buying gold and silver from the public and I have found NTR's payouts to be consistent and dead on at 98% for karat gold and 90% for sterling. It takes all of about 30 minutes to get paid, so my money isn't tied up for days. I used to use ARA out of Dallas but NTR has them beat hands down. I tried DH Fell and they were a nightmare because of a uselessly complex "refining schedule" where they nickel and dime you to death.
NTR has my business and will as long as they continue to treat me fairly. I highly recommend them.

Just so you know I'm not associated with NTR, you can view my website at frontiermetals2020.com

Best,

Jeff Sargent

 

[Palladium]

Welcome back Jeff.

 

[frontiermetals]

Hey Dan, you and I met one day last summer at NTR in San Antonio. Small world.
Just so you guys know... Dan owns an outstanding jewelry store in San Antonio and as I recall even makes his own karat alloys, including palladium, which is a real challenge.

Best,

Jeff

Guys,

I am also a new member of this forum but an old dog in the Jewelry business. Over 40 years mostly in Wholesale Diamond business which is a business were your word means something! Grandfather of three, married to the same woman 43 years, a seventh generation Texan, AGS store, Platinum & Palladium jewelry manufacturer, 1 rated JBT, and rated highly by Dunn &Bradstreet, and been at the same conservative bank for over 30 years. I can go on but I hear your eyes rolling back in you head. I am from the Ronald Reagan School of Trust but Verify. I am on my 3rd XRF machine that is extremely accurate and on my second SG machine. I melt and remelt every 600 gram bar that cash in which is usually several times a week. I multi XRF every bar and usually cut every bar in half to check internal purity. I have tried every method short of fire assay and have been a serious scientific student of the results.

With all this said, I use NTR as my refiner, I find them to be honest people. I have made several on purpose mistakes in their favor and they have pointed out my mistakes. I find that they pay a conservative number as the more you know, it takes an average of readings. Today, they started paying me 98.5% on my payouts. Have I agreed with every payout I have ever received, the honest answer is no. However, this has driven me to refine my methods and techniques, modernize my equipment, and study the results enough for me to recommend them to my friends. My reward for my recommendation is simple, I am helping people I consider to be honest business people and am proud to call my friends. Being a newbie, I am sure happy to have you check a couple of other forums were I have a track record.

Dan Dement