Palladium Plating

[Darkthirty]

Y

There is no Copper in the plated sheets, just Iron that I need to dissolve.
The Copper is in the windings, 1/4" wide by 1/8" flat copper straps.
My only use for Copper here is to cement out Palladium once it is in solution.

Cheers Wal

What do you use to strip the lacquer from the copper windings. Scrapyard wants to dock the windings down to #2 due to the "contaminant". Granted it's only .30 a Lb, but I have a large quantity of motor and transformer windings and like to get top dollar.

 

[fishaholic5]

What do you use to strip the lacquer from the copper windings. Scrapyard wants to dock the windings down to #2 due to the "contaminant". Granted it's only .30 a Lb, but I have a large quantity of motor and transformer windings and like to get top dollar.

I rarely bother. Any laquer ends up in the sediments in the bottom of the cementation vessels in the metal recovery from leaching ore.
It is burnt off when the mixed concentrate is burnt before the refining process starts.
My system for that is based on 1000 Litre pods.
The Copper is worth more to me in process than as scrap.
I recover the Copper, melt and reuse it.
If I need pure Copper for any refining it is run through a cell.

Cheers Wal

 

[Darkthirty]

I rarely bother. Any laquer ends up in the sediments in the bottom of the cementation vessels in the metal recovery from leaching ore.
It is burnt off when the mixed concentrate is burnt before the refining process starts.
My system for that is based on 1000 Litre pods.
The Copper is worth more to me in process than as scrap.
I recover the Copper, melt and reuse it.
If I need pure Copper for any refining it is run through a cell.

Cheers Wal

I've got 4" bus bar if I need cementation copper. Locating decent electronic scrap is getting tough.

 

[anarxi]

Wow, has the reactivity series been rewritten lately?
Thankyou for your input, I'll continue processing what you believe to be impossible.

Cheers Wal

What does reactivity have to do with it if you did not dissolve the palladium in acid?

I'm sorry, but I've seen and read many great stories of people searching for palladium during the two palladium rushes over the last quarter century

 

[kurtak]

360kg of Palladium plated armature sheets. The sheets are 1/72" thick, plated both sides.

HIGHLY unlikely that it is Pd plating - the likely hood of that being Pd plating is next to zero - if not zero

It’s unlikely to be palladium; it simply doesn’t belong there.
Transformer cores are made from permalloy

aniaxi is spot on here - Pd plating in this application (transformer cores) simply has NO reason &/or purpose &/or function for being there whereas permalloy actually has reason/purpose/function for being there

https://www.electricity-magnetism.org/permalloy/

Quote from that link ------------

" Permalloy’s unique properties make it indispensable in a variety of applications. Its high permeability and low coercivity have made it a popular choice for the cores of electrical transformers, where it improves efficiency and reduces energy loss. Additionally, its anisotropic magnetoresistance has led to its use in magnetic field sensing applications, such as in read heads of hard disk drives."

And ------------

"Aside from its extensive use in electrical transformers and hard disk drives, Permalloy is also employed in a range of other technologies. These include telecommunication devices, magnetic amplifiers, and shielding materials to protect sensitive electronic devices from magnetic fields. Because of its high magnetic permeability, it’s frequently used to create a pathway for magnetic fields in various devices, such as radio-frequency transformers and inductors.

In this case you are wrong. The attached pic is the cementation of the Palladium using Copper in the yeild tests.

The picture you posted with the above comment does not prove anything concerning Pd in solution - it only shows a color change of the solution taking place as copper ions go into solution

A picture of a stannous along with a picture of a DMG test would be the proper testing method to prove/confirm Pd in solution

Also - when you put a piece of copper in a solution that has Pd dissolved in it - if you do not provide very aggressive agitation to the solution it will cause the Pd to "plate" to the surface of the copper in such a tight bond on the surface of the copper that it very quickly shuts down the cementing process

In other words - unlike gold or silver wherein the gold or silver falls off the copper allowing the cementation process to continue - that does not happen with Pd unless you provide very aggressive agitation to the solution to keep the Pd "knocked of" the copper & prevent the Pd from making a tight plating bond on the surface of copper - which happens very quickly shutting down the cementation process

I'm just dissolving the plates and Palladium using HCl

I am sorry but HCl alone will not dissolve Pd plating - it would dissolve the iron under the plating thereby leaving you with Pd foils much the same as gold foils you get if you use nitric to dissolve away the copper from gold plated copper

Even IF (the VERY BIG IF) HCl would dissolve the Pd plating (which it wont) because of the iron under the Pd you would get a redox reaction wherein the iron itself would cement the Pd out - so there would be no need to cement the Pd with copper

On the other hand HCl will most certainly dissolve nickel so if HCl is dissolving both the plating & the iron under the plating that is a very good indication that the plating is permalloy as anarxi has pointed out

Bottom line - in as much as it may be Pd plating (though HIGHLY unlikely) - after 2 pages of posting you have yet to prove it is Pd

A picture of a color change in the solution after adding copper proves nothing

Show us a stannous test along with a DMG test

Kurt

 

[Yggdrasil]

HIGHLY unlikely that it is Pd plating - the likely hood of that being Pd plating is next to zero - if not zero


aniaxi is spot on here - Pd plating in this application (transformer cores) simply has NO reason &/or purpose &/or function for being there whereas permalloy actually has reason/purpose/function for being there

https://www.electricity-magnetism.org/permalloy/

Quote from that link ------------

" Permalloy’s unique properties make it indispensable in a variety of applications. Its high permeability and low coercivity have made it a popular choice for the cores of electrical transformers, where it improves efficiency and reduces energy loss. Additionally, its anisotropic magnetoresistance has led to its use in magnetic field sensing applications, such as in read heads of hard disk drives."

And ------------

"Aside from its extensive use in electrical transformers and hard disk drives, Permalloy is also employed in a range of other technologies. These include telecommunication devices, magnetic amplifiers, and shielding materials to protect sensitive electronic devices from magnetic fields. Because of its high magnetic permeability, it’s frequently used to create a pathway for magnetic fields in various devices, such as radio-frequency transformers and inductors.


The picture you posted with the above comment does not prove anything concerning Pd in solution - it only shows a color change of the solution taking place as copper ions go into solution

A picture of a stannous along with a picture of a DMG test would be the proper testing method to prove/confirm Pd in solution

Also - when you put a piece of copper in a solution that has Pd dissolved in it - if you do not provide very aggressive agitation to the solution it will cause the Pd to "plate" to the surface of the copper in such a tight bond on the surface of the copper that it very quickly shuts down the cementing process

In other words - unlike gold or silver wherein the gold or silver falls off the copper allowing the cementation process to continue - that does not happen with Pd unless you provide very aggressive agitation to the solution to keep the Pd "knocked of" the copper & prevent the Pd from making a tight plating bond on the surface of copper - which happens very quickly shutting down the cementation process


I am sorry but HCl alone will not dissolve Pd plating - it would dissolve the iron under the plating thereby leaving you with Pd foils much the same as gold foils you get if you use nitric to dissolve away the copper from gold plated copper

Even IF (the VERY BIG IF) HCl would dissolve the Pd plating (which it wont) because of the iron under the Pd you would get a redox reaction wherein the iron itself would cement the Pd out - so there would be no need to cement the Pd with copper

On the other hand HCl will most certainly dissolve nickel so if HCl is dissolving both the plating & the iron under the plating that is a very good indication that the plating is permalloy as anarxi has pointed out

Bottom line - in as much as it may be Pd plating (though HIGHLY unlikely) - after 2 pages of posting you have yet to prove it is Pd

A picture of a color change in the solution after adding copper proves nothing

Show us a stannous test along with a DMG test

Kurt

I have had a PM session with him, these come from military transformers for tropical use.
So I can in this setting understand the reasoning for the plating.
He also forgot to mention that had dissolved some in Nitric for testing.

 

[nickvc]

Well I hope he is right and he has a good pay day , I must admit looking at the pictures and reading the op I assumed it was plated on copper but as it’s on steel I think he should be able to recover the palladium as solids as the HCl should leave it alone.

I’m aware that certain metal salts in solution can dissolve precious metals perhaps a clever chemist can chime in here and give us some specifics as to what and how..

 

[anarxi]

Well I hope he is right and he has a good pay day , I must admit looking at the pictures and reading the op I assumed it was plated on copper but as it’s on steel I think he should be able to recover the palladium as solids as the HCl should leave it alone.

I’m aware that certain metal salts in solution can dissolve precious metals perhaps a clever chemist can chime in here and give us some specifics as to what and how..

Palladium simply cannot be there, and it doesn’t matter whether it is tropical or arctic.
palladium as a contact, as a resistive element, as a sublayer for attaching another metal, but not as a dielectric and rust protection...

 

[Barstool miner]

The plating is on both sides of the plates...not on the cut surfaces. The acid can attack the Iron.
As far as " if it is" remember I am not quite a Newby to refining or processing Palladium. It is one of the metals that is recovered in reasonable quantities from my operations here.

Cheers Wal

Hello Wal, I have anode bag sludge that I collected from my Silver process, which is a mixture of Cu, Pd, and Au powder that I have to separate . Have you any suggestions? I have dissolved this powder in HCl + Cl2. I have found that I can reduce the Cu out of the solution by dissolving Aluminum Foil, after which I reduce Palladium powder and Gold powder combined using Cast Aluminium. When Cast Aluminium is dissolved into Hydrochloric acid I get small detonations from the Hydrogen that is produced

I am having Fun

 

[Yggdrasil]

Hello Wal, I have anode bag sludge that I collected from my Silver process, which is a mixture of Cu, Pd, and Au powder that I have to separate . Have you any suggestions? I have dissolved this powder in HCl + Cl2. I have found that I can reduce the Cu out of the solution by dissolving Aluminum Foil, after which I reduce Palladium powder and Gold powder combined using Cast Aluminium. When Cast Aluminium is dissolved into Hydrochloric acid I get small detonations from the Hydrogen that is produced

I am having Fun

Having fun is nice, but Aluminum foil and cast Aluminum will drop everything and the same.
Dropping all PMs, Copper, Iron and what not.

 

[kurtak]

I have had a PM session with him, these come from military transformers for tropical use.

Per the bold print - it's use/application still does not prove anything - as is true concerning everything else he has posted concerning this plating - as I pointed out in my last post

In other words - until a proper stannous test is preformed along with a proper DMG test (to confirm the stannous test so that stannous test is not "mistaken" for a false positive) we currently have a 2 page thread of speculation

Well I hope he is right and he has a good pay day

And just to be clear - I to hope he is right --- in other words I am not saying it's not Pd - just that after 2 pages posting there has been no proper testing performed to confirm it is Pd & when considering it's application (transformer core) there is every reason to suspect it is not Pd

So I can in this setting understand the reasoning for the plating.

And I get it - that the reasoning (actually speculation) here is to use Pd plating as a corrosion inhibitor of the iron plates that make up the transformers iron core

The problem with that is two fold

1) why would they use a VERY expensive like Pd as a corrosion inhibitor when they can use a MUCH less expensive metal - such as nickel - which can/will provide the same corrosion resistance "in this kind of application"

The corrosion resistance of nickel is the very reason they use in making iron resistant to corrosion for stainless steel

2) Pd does not provide any of the properties desired in the construction of a transformer core - those properties are as follows (taken from the like in my last post) -----------

Permalloy typically consists of approximately 80% nickel, 15-20% iron, and a small amount of molybdenum. It’s renowned for its high magnetic permeability, low coercivity, and significant anisotropic magnetoresistance.

• High Magnetic Permeability: Permalloy’s ability to attract and carry magnetic lines of force is impressive. This property, known as magnetic permeability, allows it to excel in applications that require efficient magnetic field conduction.
• Low Coercivity: The alloy’s low coercivity means it can quickly reach magnetic saturation and be easily demagnetized. This characteristic makes it ideal for use in devices that require rapid magnetic field changes.
• Anisotropic Magnetoresistance: Permalloy’s electrical resistance changes based on the magnetic field’s direction relative to the electrical current’s direction, a phenomenon known as anisotropic magnetoresistance. This property is particularly useful in sensing applications.

In other words - in as much as Pd "may" provide corrosion resistance - it does not provide the more desired properties sought after in the construction of high end transformers - such as transformers built for military application

It makes no sense - at all - to use a VERY expensive metal (Pd) which only provides corrosion resistance but does not provide for the efficient magnetic field conduction & rapid magnetic field changes & electrical resistance changes based on the magnetic field’s direction relative to the electrical current’s direction - the main property desired in the construction of a high end transformer

Palladium simply cannot be there, and it doesn’t matter whether it is tropical or arctic.
palladium as a contact, as a resistive element, as a sublayer for attaching another metal, but not as a dielectric and rust protection...

So in as much as we can all "hope" fishaholic5 is right - the odds are HIGHLY in favor of anarxi being right on this one

Again (& it is not my intent to be rude here) but until "proper" testing is preformed here (stannous & DMG) this 2 page thread is based on speculation

I hope fishaholic5 does not go ahead with dissolving a "bunch" of this in HCl - only to find out that he is creating a LOT of solution high in iron & nickel & even some molybdenum (which is also used in making permalloy) & if molybdenum is used in the permalloy it is very likely he will get a false positive stannous test for Pt & then find himself chasing after Pt he thinks is in solution - when in fact there is no Pt in solution

Bottom line - I am not disputing fishaholic5 claim - I am simple saying he should preform "proper" testing to confirm what he "thinks" he has

Kurt

 

[adam mizer]

I go with the general industry standard. But to use a precious metal is unheard of? It would be very interesting to hear a test result.

The laminations are often oxidised to form a surface film of oxide that has a higher resistance than plain steel, thus isolating each layer to a certain extent and reducing eddy currents that may occur perpendicular to the plane of lamination. Sometimes one or both sides of a lamination are sprayed with lacquer for insulation purposes.
Sorry about the bold text it was already in the copied text from search.

 

[Christian333]

Hello Wal, I have anode bag sludge that I collected from my Silver process, which is a mixture of Cu, Pd, and Au powder that I have to separate . Have you any suggestions? I have dissolved this powder in HCl + Cl2. I have found that I can reduce the Cu out of the solution by dissolving Aluminum Foil, after which I reduce Palladium powder and Gold powder combined using Cast Aluminium. When Cast Aluminium is dissolved into Hydrochloric acid I get small detonations from the Hydrogen that is produced

I am having Fun

Aluminum will cement out gold and palladium as well as copper.

Janie

 

[galenrog]

Interesting thread. I am unwilling to speculate right now for a variety of reasons. If Wal believes he has palladium plating, fine. Once enough plating has been recovered, he will give us the results. If his research and process proves fruitful, he has nothing but applause from me. If wrong, Wal is man enough to admit being wrong. Let’s give the man a break and see what happens.

Time for more coffee.

 

[anachronism]

Interesting thread. I am unwilling to speculate right now for a variety of reasons. If Wal believes he has palladium plating, fine. Once enough plating has been recovered, he will give us the results. If his research and process proves fruitful, he has nothing but applause from me. If wrong, Wal is man enough to admit being wrong. Let’s give the man a break and see what happens.

Time for more coffee.

Well said Sir.

 

[snoman701]

There's no telling what the plating is. Palladium used to be so cheap they'd put it on anything. Look at the amount of Pd in organs. In modern terms, there's simply no reason for it. But it made sense at the time.

 

[Shark]

My brother bought his class ring in palladium years ago. It was $98, versus my 18k white gold at $469.

 

[snoman701]

I rarely do metal recovery from electronic or electrical sources, this was a lucky find in an Australian military spec transformer. Pre 1960.

You should chop off a piece and send it to Lou for analysis if he's interested. It might be more financially viable to just have someone else do it.

 

[snoman701]

What do you use to strip the lacquer from the copper windings. Scrapyard wants to dock the windings down to #2 due to the "contaminant". Granted it's only .30 a Lb, but I have a large quantity of motor and transformer windings and like to get top dollar.

Don't bother. If you burn it, you are going to degrade it and lose some copper to oxide. If you chemically treat it, you are going to have to get rid of the chemical waste. I know the desire to get top dollar, but sometimes it's best to just take the money and move.

 

[Shark]

Like snowman said, sometimes volume can offset quality. Time saved factored in can be a big difference as well. Then if burning you don’t need to worry about who sees or smells what your doing as well.