Question on processing pins in AP

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Tmcfarland1983

Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
17
Location
Ball Ground, Georgia
This is my first time trying to process any PM from scrap. I've done a bit of research over the past few months and have a pretty good idea on how to do this. I had about a half pound of plated pins from motherboards and such and I put them in a Mason jar and added 400ml HCL and 200ml H202. Its been going on 12 hours no or so and the color is a nice emerald green and i have gold particulate floating around in my solution. My question concerns this black slime/sludge floating just above the pins on the bottom. Is this normal? And what is this?
 
It is gold that went into solution and then reduced/cemented onto the base metal of your pins. You added too much H2O2 to start. All you need at the most is maybe 1 part in 20 to kickstart the copper reaction.

You should read LaserSteves document on AP
 
Ok, so what should be my next steps? Let the reaction continue a few days, allow it to settle then siphon/filter. Wash with HCl then move on to HCl/clorox? Is it going to be detrimental because I added to much H202?
 
I should start out by saying that I do not process pins with AP due to the slow speed of the reaction, but I do process many other things with it.

If I found myself in your position I would let the reaction run its course, but at the ratio you used the HCl and H2O2 in I am sure you dissolved some gold. Most if not all may cement out as the black powder but you need to be very careful and test your solution for gold with a stannous test before discarding your waste acid for safe disposal.

I highly recommend you read Lazersteve's document on AP this evening so you understand how AP works. It can be found on his website http://www.goldrecovery.us/

I would not use a bubbler on this batch, at least not unless all action stops for a few days and if you still have some solid pins remaining.
 
And also, here is the thing I have found with testing ap (acid peroxide) solutions.
Unless most or all of the peroxide is out of the mix, you can get a false negitive with stanus chloride.
What I am saying is if there is still much active peroxide it will stop the stanus from working. There will be no color. The tin is unable to cement (if you will) or form the purple or black coloid.
It is kind of like like trying to cement or precip gold when there is too much availabe nitric present. The nitric being the oxidizer.
 
patnor1011 said:
Be aware that gold may cemented on undissolved pins too.
Click to expand...

Is that good or bad? Wouldn't I want the gold to cement on something solid rather than be in the sludge/slime form? I think tomorrow I'm going to filter liquid, wash then proceed to the next step. As for the left over AP, could I drop in a couple pieces of clean copper and cement the remaining gold out in the form of that black stuff? And thank everyone for helping, i am so grateful to have you guys helping.
 
Tmcfarland1983 said:
patnor1011 said:
Be aware that gold may cemented on undissolved pins too.
Click to expand...

Is that good or bad? Wouldn't I want the gold to cement on something solid rather than be in the sludge/slime form? I think tomorrow I'm going to filter liquid, wash then proceed to the next step. As for the left over AP, could I drop in a couple pieces of clean copper and cement the remaining gold out in the form of that black stuff? And thank everyone for helping, i am so grateful to have you guys helping.
Click to expand...

(x) That may be bad as your objective is remove gold from pins. What may happen is that it will dissolve but stick back again. As some portion of your pins may get dark color after AP you cant say if gold is stuck on them in form of black/brown powder. Pins are generally stripped in cell. Smaller ones can be dissolved in hot HCl, then you will have foils and powder from flash plated pins. When peroxide is introduced your solution may dissolve gold especially on those light-flash plated pins.
(x) That is recommended. Gold cement on flat pieces of copper and it is easier to reclaim it, if there is still some gold in left over AP solution.
 
Try to search for crock pot here on forum. Few posts about pins and AP. Most members recommend to dissolve pins completely but that is time and acid intensive. That is why cell with copper mesh is used on bigger pins. Very small ones have better mass:surface ratio and dissolve quicker.
 
Tmcfarland1983 said:
patnor1011 said:
Be aware that gold may cemented on undissolved pins too.
Click to expand...
Is that good or bad? Wouldn't I want the gold to cement on something solid rather than be in the sludge/slime form? I think tomorrow I'm going to filter liquid, wash then proceed to the next step. As for the left over AP, could I drop in a couple pieces of clean copper and cement the remaining gold out in the form of that black stuff? And thank everyone for helping, i am so grateful to have you guys helping.
Click to expand...
Tmcfarland1983,

I am going to say this as politely as possible and with your best interests in mind. In the few posts we have exchanged you seem to be running in circles of uncertainty. Look at your above reply and it's questions, yet you are proposing your next step already without the answers. The best advice I can give you is to set your solution aside in a safe place and do nothing more with it for a while. You will not lose your gold this way and it may even bring itself to the point that it “is” ready for the next step. AP can take weeks on pins in some cases before you are ready for the next step.

If you keep going as you are, you will almost certainly lose some if not all of your gold. In addition, if you do achieve some level of success, you will not be able to duplicate it next time because of the repeated changes in direction you seem headed for.

I looked back at your other posts and see that you became interested in this a little over 2 weeks ago after stumbling upon Steve's site. It is good that you have watched all of Steve's videos and read his documents, but it is obvious from the questions you are asking that you do not yet understand how AP works. You should have a better understanding of the process before you continue or you will make bad decisions that can cost you your gold.

The best advice I can give you is to set your solution aside for now. Go back to Steve's site and read the AP document. Once you think you have a fair understanding of it, read a few threads on the forumwhere members have described the steps they took for their AP process and some of the problems they may have encountered. Then write out your own step by step plan on how you will proceed with the solution you have now, as well as its progress just sitting idle for a while. A picture and description would be helpful to those helping you at that time.

You should also have made some stannous chloride testing solution before asking for help in proceeding with this solution. Once you have, ask one of us how to make a small auric chloride (gold) solution to test. This is a necessary step in being able to determine where your gold is, and if you have removed all of it from a solution. Testing is a needed skill.

I am pleased to see you excited about this new hobby, but you seem too excited, and are wishing to take steps without being sure why and the consequences of those steps. Trust me when I say that making this investment in time before jumping in head first, will leave you with a fun, safe, and fulfilling hobby, instead of being left with frustration and confusion.
 
joem said:
I have found when using glass jars with lids, the lids also dissolve from the fumes.
Click to expand...
Joem,

There are not many things in refining that I am willing to risk loss of by using less than lab glass. I know it is expensive and for some things I can understand the use of quart mason jars as long as it will not be heated (beware as some chemical reactions make a lot of heat on their own).

If you need lids for quart mason jars, find someone that buys the discount or store brands of mayonnaise. These usually have a plastic lid that will match a regular quart canning jar. The plastic is rather resistant to acid, but I would not use them for much more than to keep dirt and dust out of idle solutions. Do not tighten them all the way though, as some solutions can build up pressure that could shatter your glass.
 
If you don't like mayo you can find lids. And the trail mix and pickle lids fit some gallon jars. I accumulate silver chloride in a gallon jar with a plastic lid.
 

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My favorite source of jars to use for reactions that don't involve much heat is Lipton instant ice tea mix. My wife empties a jar every week or so and they have a plastic lid with a paper liner. I remove the paper liner and fit the lids loosely on the jar to keep dirt, dust and bugs out of my solutions.

I'm with OZ on the quality glassware thing. If it's going to be heated or is expected to generate much heat I use borosilicate beakers and flasks only, and also heat them in a Corningware Visions glass pan to contain anything that might spill if my glassware does break.
 
Oz said:
You added too much H2O2 to start. All you need at the most is maybe 1 part in 20 to kickstart the copper reaction.
I would not use a bubbler on this batch, at least not unless all action stops for a few days
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

You can also kickstart without any H2O2 by using some corroded copper and that info is on Steve's web site. That's what I did the second time I started AP and it worked good.

I've been using bubbling during the time I've been etching boards and I get some dark stains here and there that I suspect have cemented gold in them. I'm coming to think the best way to run AP (Copper Chloride process) if you want to avoid gold dissolution as much as possible is to have enough volume of matured (light green) solution to run your batch and only bubble between batches.

Tmcfarland, Oz has give you some great advice and I'm also profiting by it.

Please forgive my clumsy attempt at using the forum's quote feature.
FrugalEE
 

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