Recommended setup to process 350oz of scrap jewery per week

[HAuCl4]

After the sun leaves you with a crust of nitrates, mild calcination leaves you with a crust of oxides and all the NOx can be bubbled in water and remake most of the nitric. If you cement the copper with iron, you can reuse the copper to inquart again. Zinc is a lot harder and not economical to recover as metal, so let's leave it out or make clean sulphate for animal feeds. Been there, done that. That's right mic.:shock:

 

[Oz]

You will find that bubbling your Nox into H2O2 is much more efficient than water.

 

[goldenchild]

Couldnt xenfasa simply start out by melting all the gold, shotting it and then going straight to AR? This was suggested to me by a reputable member. With all the lower karats in the mix this will be plenty of copper to offset the silver. You WILL get some undigested corn flakes but... you can then either A. take the silver cloride produced, reduce it back to metalic silver and then use that to inquart the undigested material obviously digesting with nitric again or B. use the recovered gold to inquart the undigested material to make it a high karat for AR digestion. Either way you would use minimal nitric and build up the silver hoard everyone is fighting about.

 

[HAuCl4]

It requires a lot more skill and care in processing, but what you say goldenchild is doable. I prefer the speed and simplicity of inquarting and fluxing, and I'm sticking with that judgment unless extreme fineness is a requisite. The amount of acids and volumes used is similar though for the OP's material.

 

[Harold_V]

This thread was brought to my attention by a reader, due to insults being exchanged. (I had been following anyway!)

The next guy that comments at the expense of another is going to get two weeks to think things over. If you guys can't talk with/to one another without commenting on dim bulbs or other less than complimentary thoughts, you still have much to learn. Do not expect less than flattering comments (which you may think harmless) as being acceptable, yet resent receiving like comments in return.

I've said my piece. I will have zero tolerance for any further insults.

I don't know anyone that is more set in their ways than I am. I know what worked for me, so I expect it will work for others. However, circumstances aren't always the same. How about you guys try looking at this thread from the perspective that there may be a few variations on a preferred process, all the while allowing success, with the ultimate result being inquarting with silver, as it is accumulated?

It goes without saying, in a perfect situation, using silver is the preferred method----but when one is forced to work within a budget----you do what you must in order to achieve the ultimate goal----that of refining the required amount of gold.

When you give this some thought---isn't that what each of you has done? Didn't each of us start out with nothing----slowly adding to our lab or operation? It was true for me, for sure.

Harold

 

[4metals]

I hope we didn't scare this guy off, this thread is a valuable topic for many on this forum. Lets keep on topic, listen to the questions asked and try and make this thread a useful tool for our members.

 

[Oz]

I hope we didn't scare this guy off, this thread is a valuable topic for many on this forum. Lets keep on topic, listen to the questions asked and try and make this thread a useful tool for our members.

Indeed, if xenfasa proceeds with this, no matter the process he chooses, many could learn from hearing his results good and bad. Never miss a learning opportunity just because you think you know it all.

Please stay with us xenfasa and report your findings. We are not typically this unruly.

 

[Anonymous]

Please stay with us xenfasa and report your findings. We are not typically this unruly.

Too true,there is much to be learned,and this bickering is very rare.

The next guy that comments at the expense of another is going to get two weeks to think things over.

Understood,sorry,and thank you.

Perhaps I read this wrong but HAuCl4 was suggesting only to start with base metals other than silver until the required silver was accumulated through processing, not as a permanent solution.

I reread it and you are correct,at least that is what I thought,until he mentioned the $20K dollars.Then I thought he was insinuating to purchase all of the silver at once needed to process all of the jewelry at once.That is what threw me off.If done in incremental lots,then I agree that a small amount of silver could easily be affordable,say 5-10 ounces to start,and reused until enough silver is reclaimed from the processed jewelry so the next lot could be larger than the previous lot.Therefore no base metals would be needed for inquartation at all.

Gold chloride,my hand is extended.The most important thing is that we remember that we are all human and capable of making a mistake,god knows I have made my share in that past.Now lets both of us put this nastiness behind us and move on with the processing.Sorry for the lightbulb comment.

 

[xenfasa]

I think I am getting closer to a direction based on reading your comments.. plus have more details that may help.

I have a single seller with sufficient scrap 300-350oz
I have a single buyer wanting to buy 150oz per week

So the plans was/is to batch once a week and save a ton of labor.

I understand that inquarting is an easier process using less corrosive acids? Is that correct?
Are there other good reasons I should go that direction rather than AR?

I know buying extra silver is not in the budget but I also did not mention that I have at least 2 100oz bars I bought for about $600 each several years back for investment purposes.... Maybe it is time to dig them up and put them to use.

I have other junk silver and possibly other bars.. .but not sure how much I actually would want to melt.

Simple, efficient, less, labor, less chemicals and less equipment is better.. if it means me having to melt more of my silver. I can live with that.

So here is a math question for you inquarting gurus our there.
How much silver would I need to inquart 350oz of 10k scrap. Average maybe closer to 12k but I think 10k is a worse case senario.

Next question... what would you guess is the average amount of silver in 100oz of 10k scrap... Just wondering since collecting the silver would be a nice bonus income at this production level. Could I expect 5% or 8% or more of 10k scrap to be silver?
That would mean maybe around 17oz-25oz of silver per batch per week I get to keep.

I was not thinking inquarting as a serious option before because of having to melt hundreds if not thousands of ounces of metal...
I guess with the right furnace it should not be too much of an issue?
What kinda furnace would I need for such? Preferably gas. Is propane an option for such furnaces?

I agree with other posts here about doing my own assays. Any real serious biz person I feel would do such.
I was looking at this assay kit here.... Beginners Assay Kit for $1500.
http://www.actionmining.com/bak.html
Is this enough to get me started? I think and hope it would be. Once the profits start rolling in, I can afford to invest in something better if necessary.
I will have 3rd parties verify my assays as well... if seller or buyer want. The main purpose would be to protect myself from getting ripped off by either side....... knowing what I have.. having assayed it myself.

thinking... of the assay process... I would melt a batch down. Do an assay to access gold content of the batch before inquarting.
Then inquart, ... purify a gold sample and assay the purified gold. In a perfect world the gold contents before and after would jive... doing calculations from the first melt... to arrive at a what the pure sample should be and actually is.

I am getting more excited as your feedback is helping me a lot....
any more comments with this new info I have provided?

Thanks again,
Xen

 

[Palladium]

This might be a good read for you. http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=4789#wrapheader

 

[Anonymous]

I have at least 2 100oz bars

:shock: Very nice.You already have enough silver to inquart all of it.Lazersteve has a nice video on it http://goldrecovery.us/ .
Personally I wouldn't buy that kit.All of the info you need is here,and you can purchase pretty much everything you need from lazersteves store.Anything that you may want that he would not have,you could purchase from http://www.lmine.com and save a bundle.Problem solved.

 

[4metals]

Action mining starter assay kit is for assaying ore, what you need is simpler. You will need a furnace, they sell Vncella Kilns, I've used them and they are excellent. You will need a good analytical balance, this will cost the most unless your association with university chemists can find you a balance to use. Today the balances are digital but the old analog balances were accurate and most universities had them and possibly they can be had cheap.

A good thread to read to set up a lab is on this forum. http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=4789

A gas melter can be made or had for a reasonable price, Action Mining has one which uses propane. There are inquartation calculators on the forum if you use the search function. Basically inquartation (the word) means to make in quarters. You want the gold to be 25% of the metal in the melt, or close. So you would add silver so the gold is 25%, in 12 karat gold the metals other than gold are another 25% so you will only have to add 50% in fine silver (or sterling if you have it)

Inquartation uses nitric acid. It is an easier process to clean up the gold but it will not produce .9995 gold by itself. It will provide a clean feedstock which aqua regia can easily clean up to make .9995 gold. It is a pre treatment which when followed by aqua regia equates to refining the gold twice. If you assay your gold and it is under 8% silver you can get similar results using one step as aqua regia. The silver and up to 1% by assay of the silver bar will be retained gold which is easily recovered in a small silver cell.

You are correct, batching into 1 process lot a week will save a lot of labor and only settling on 1 assay is even easier. You should run multiple cups and run a proof assay as well.

Read up on the previous forum threads and you will have a better idea of what you need to do. Then come back and ask more questions.

This can be a valuable thread if posters come back and edit out the bile we can make it a sticky for future reference.

 

[xenfasa]

I just watched the mentioned videos and came back to the thread and it says to watch the videos...

A premature question if you do not mind me asking and to clarify.
For the inquarting process... only the silver is dissolved in the Nitric Acid, correct?
Other base metals including the gold are still left after the silver solution is filtered out.

How do you then refine the residue metal and gold grains/powder to gold? You still need to use the regular Aqua Regia process?
Or is there another recommended way to do things?

 

[Barren Realms 007]

Hope this spreadsheet helps. And I will go remove my post's and someone can deleate if they want to since it seems they have no merit to this discussion.

Post's removed, enjoy!!!!

View attachment ArtsInQuartation.xls

 

[Anonymous]

For the inquarting process... only the silver is dissolved in the Nitric Acid, correct?

No,the only thing that is not dissolved(digested) is the gold.You can filter the gold powder per steves video,then proceed to refine it further,with AR and washes with Hcl and water.The solution left behind from the filter process must have the silver dropped out with salt or other method.

 

[4metals]

When you inquart with silver, all of the base metals and the silver and any palladium and some platinum will dissolve in the nitric solution. What remains will be 99% pure gold with some entrapped silver and some platinum if any was present. Additional treatment in nitric acid will clean it up a bit and it is possible using some fluxing techniques to get the purity to approach .999.

This is why you were asked what purity the gold you will sell has to be. If the gold is to be re-cast into jewelry it can be alloyed as it is providing the platinum is low or non existent.

It would be my guess that your client will want a minimum of .9995 fine gold. In that case, the sponge dissolves easily in aqua regia (and quickly) and the aqua regia refine step will upgrade the gold to what you need.

I suggest you inquart some gold, dissolve it in half nitric acid and half distilled water, and filter and wash the solids (gold) then you can melt this metal and just add a few granules of potassium nitrate which will flux off some, if not all, of the impurities. When you see the purity you have attained by inquarting, you can show it to your buyer and see if it passes muster.

It is not easy to assay pure gold. It is assayed by difference meaning the parts per million of all of the impurities are analyzed by instrumentation and subtracted from 100%. Generally if the gold bar has the pipe on the surface exposing beautiful gold crystals in the bar, it is purchased as pure. Try it, you may save yourself an entire step. This is easier to do with 10 to 20 ounces of gold rather than 1 ounce.

 

[xenfasa]

more details.
The buyer is wanting the gold to make jewerly for his well establish jewelry business.

I am not sure of the purity he wants/needs yet but hope to have that answer soon.

If he can settle for what I am left with after one run of inquarting and no AR than that would be great

I also have questions into a local environmental attorney with experience in such that will make sure we comply with the laws on using such chemicals I will update when I have that info as well. (want the green frogs to stay green)

Once I have a basic list of major supplies I THINK I will need. I will post back to this list as well as were I think I might be getting them.

I will also be checking with my chemistry professor friends at the largest University here in Costa Rica to see what equipment they can either provide or let me rent/borrow/use or break They will be involved in the project as well.

I think we have a great opportunity here.. with the scrap sellers sending to the US and the buyers importing from the US....
We save all that extra shipping and insurance and just process it all local.

I hope to start buying up some things in January and to have most all by the end of February. I may get quiet for a while here with the holidays coming up and traveling but I will be working on this and reading lots as I continue to create the perfect starter setup for this project.

Thanks again,
Xen

 

[EDI Refining]

Xen
reading your post, I highly suggest you start walking prior to running (refining 350oz per week)
Do what 4metals suggested in the post right above mine.


My question for you is. What accountability must you be at to be able to purchase the 350oz of scrap ?
What is your fine gold outlet, willing to pay you over spot for your finished product?

 

[4metals]

One thing you can definitely do is take one pass inquarted gold and alloy it up to return 14k and 10k alloys. Alloys sell for a premium and are easy to make, here in the states you can buy casting grain sized alloy which contains all of the required metals except the gold, in the proper proportions to make alloy. Just weigh out the alloy, add your gold, and melt it into bars. Assay to assure quality, and roll into flat stock, wire or whatever your buyer can use.

The cost of the rolling mills will be offset by steps and associated costs saved in the refining process. An in house assay lab can assure its quality.

Another benefit of only having to inquart and digest in nitric is you can make an effective fume scrubber which operates in an oxygen atmosphere and converts the nitric fumes which pass off as red fume into nitric acid which you can reuse.

This process cuts down on NOx and recycles your chemistry. (Gold chloride will be very happy!)

 

[4metals]

If your buyer uses the gold in jewelry manufacture he also has other types of precious metal containing scrap such as polishing sweeps, bench filings, sprues from casting and possibly bombing liquid. If he uses 150 ounces of fine a week, the quantity of these wastes generated will be considerable.

These materials are also valuable and your buyer will need to have them refined as well. Considering the material you will be getting is the cream of the scrap, other refiners who may be doing the other wastes may offer better rates to get what you have plans to process. Considering you are starting out with one source, it would be wise for you to plan on processing these other materials as well. Just to keep the competition down.

Fortunately for you, all of these scrap-types have been discussed and are documented on this forum as well.