recovery question

[myfalconry76]

Hi all, New to the board! My name is Derek and would love it if y'all could answers a couple of questions.
1St. Am I wrong in the thought that muratic acid will remove foils from fingers on its own?
2Nd. If to much peroxide wi desolve the gold, how would you recover it from AP solution? And if it can be recovered from AP why use aqua regia. I'm about halfway through the reading that's recommended. But I'm slightly dyslexic and it's taking a while. I have no desire or need to learn about performing aqua regia at this point! I'm out doors and only working with muratic acid and hydrogen peroxide. I haven't even added any peroxide to my soution in fear of desolving gold, I know it could be cemented back out, however extra work is not on my ta do list. I'm working with 16 lb of trimmed fingers, I also have about 4 pounds of ceramic processors but am waiting to try and process them. Till I gain more knowledge.
Any help is most appreciated and followed as long as it is sound logical advice. I'm not in this to experiment I'm in this to do it and cut losses.
Thanx in advance and keep it safe.
Derek McCollum

 

[necromancer]

Answer #1 if you want to prolong the process & cause yourself to add extra steps it will work,
it takes a very very long time to remove foils with HCL / muriatic only.

Answer #2 the peroxide in the AP process is not meant to dissolve the gold, the peroxide is an "oxidizer" to help dissolve the base metals, not the gold.

i hope this answers your questions. and if i may be forward.......

please take the time to read through the forum, (i know its huge) but its all there ! read the safety, use the search, getting familiar will help you out on your journey.

it took me a year before starting my first project. take the time to help yourself Oh..... remember, your items do not go bad. they will wait for you until you are ready !

 

[kernels]

Hi Derek,

Hydrochloric Acid (Muriatic in yank) will actually eventually turn into a AP solution anyway because the air in your bucket will react (slowly) with the copper. By deliberately turning it into AP with some Hydrogen Peroxide, you are merely speeding up the process. The purpose of the AP solution is to etch copper, under all normal circumstances, it wont attack the gold. Very few people ever tell you exactly how much hydrogen peroxide to add to how much acid, my own advice is to cover 80 percent of your fingers with acid, add filtered water until your fingers are covered, then give it a medium splash of 35 percent hydrogen peroxide, or a large splash of 3 percent hydrogen peroxide. You also need to bubble air through the AP, otherwise the reaction will be very slow. Now, wait for 4 days to a week and you will have thousands of gold foils in the bottom of your container. (The bucket-in-bucket system works best in my experience)

That covers 'recovery', if you then want to refine those foils into relatively pure gold, you need to refine them with Aqua Regia.

If you end up accidentally dissolving some gold in you AP, there are actually a few ways to get it back out, easiest is to add some flat, clean copper sheet in there, the gold will cement onto the copper as a black powder, which you will then have to re-refine with AR.

It would be best to use about 200g of fingers for your first batch, then 500g for your second batch, then the bulk for you third batch. You will make a lot of mistakes and only end up with about 50% of your gold for the first batch, by batch 3 you will pretty much have the refining figured out and can expect to recovery almost all your gold.

Edit - pay special attention to the safety and waste disposal aspects. Working outside is crap, but necessary if you don't have any extraction indoors. Don't dump anything down any drains until you fully understand the consequences.

 

[necromancer]

i forgot to add......

using the AP method leaves the gold of the foils "as clean foils" you remove the foils for further processing to get your pure product

 

[myfalconry76]

Thank you everyone, this is my first time trying to recover gold from computer scrap! I got a huge score of computers and computer fingers. Like 2 tons of computers and 3 boxes ram. A mountain of hard drives and 600lb of connector cords. I'll be tearing apart computers for months.
I'm doing everything as environmentally sound as possible. I've been in the construction business for a while and am aware of how to properly dispose of muratic acid or hcl as it's called here.
Once again thank you all and I will be taking it slow and easy.
Derek McCollum

 

[Phishin_ca]

i forgot to add......

using the AP method leaves the gold of the foils "as clean foils" you remove the foils for further processing to get your pure product

I could just be my experience with it, but it is not a "clean" product at all. Rinses with HCl after filtering the foils and prior to putting the gold in solution has made for a much cleaner drop at the end. Refining is still required, but I could definitely see a difference. I ran several small (100gm) batches of fingers side by side. I have not melted yet, but I can definitely say that the batches that didn't go straight to HClO were "muddy". Get every metal out that you can while you can still see gold.

The H2O2 is only to kickstart the reaction. You are trying to dissolve the base metals out from below the gold. Side note... you can even get to the point of throwing out gold if you use too much. Don't get anxious, you are doing this to learn (i hope). Time is on your side. Learn and get comfortable with what will happen for EVERY STEP.

If there is a single point in your experiment where you can't say with 100% certainty what will happen, you need to stop and make a post.If you have no clue what to do now, make a post -> It is a friendly bunch, but they expect you to research. Nobody here will walk you into killing yourself. I want you to know how this works... If you are looking to cash out on a load of gold bearing items and will never come back, find someone here to do a toll refine for you. YOU WILL NOT MAKE MORE DOING IT YOURSELF!. Put your lot for sale here; http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=58

If you want to learn to do it yourself; Look for LaserSteve's posts on the "AP" process. Sit back and learn humility.

 

[necromancer]

Phishin_ca, as english is such a wide & diverse language, please accept what i described as "clean foils"...as...
"clean as foils can get without proceeding to the next step of the recovery process"

i just use water to wash off my foils, no need to waste acid & use extra steps, i do it correctly. just as i was taught by the fine members here at the GRF.
anyone that runs fingers knows that you do not run 90% of the process & remove most of the base metals, you remove all the base metals the first time.

i was explaining this as a starting point not a complete & exact process.

i forgot to add......

using the AP method leaves the gold of the foils "as clean foils" you remove the foils for further processing to get your pure product

I could just be my experience with it, but it is not a "clean" product at all. Rinses with HCl after filtering the foils and prior to putting the gold in solution has made for a much cleaner drop at the end. Refining is still required, but I could definitely see a difference. I ran several small (100gm) batches of fingers side by side. I have not melted yet, but I can definitely say that the batches that didn't go straight to HClO were "muddy". Get every metal out that you can while you can still see gold.

The H2O2 is only to kickstart the reaction. You are trying to dissolve the base metals out from below the gold. Side note... you can even get to the point of throwing out gold if you use too much. Don't get anxious, you are doing this to learn (i hope). Time is on your side. Learn and get comfortable with what will happen for EVERY STEP.

If there is a single point in your experiment where you can't say with 100% certainty what will happen, you need to stop and make a post.If you have no clue what to do now, make a post -> It is a friendly bunch, but they expect you to research. Nobody here will walk you into killing yourself. I want you to know how this works... If you are looking to cash out on a load of gold bearing items and will never come back, find someone here to do a toll refine for you. YOU WILL NOT MAKE MORE DOING IT YOURSELF!. Put your lot for sale here; http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=58

If you want to learn to do it yourself; Look for LaserSteve's posts on the "AP" process. Sit back and learn humility.

 

[myfalconry76]

I think I'm going to stick around reading and recovering gold of of different things for the next year or so. I got five computershops that are saving scrap for me. Plus all the stuff I got ready.
I also in the future may try AR leaching on some catalytic converters in the future. I'm not just looking to cash out a lot and then move on. I'm fascinated by the process on a molecular level it is wonderful to know these things and other things as well. My mind often ponders things that the average mind dose not. You can never know to much.
Note, I started the fingers a hour befor this post in hcl and added no peroxide. I already have lots of foils off the pcb the floating around. I'm just gunna let it go and add nothing else unless I see a reduction In the reaction.

 

[necromancer]

please be safe, catalytic converters contain asbestos. and dont forget about the dirt on the highways, its harder to carry but easier to find

I think I'm going to stick around reading and recovering gold of of different things for the next year or so. I got five computershops that are saving scrap for me. Plus all the stuff I got ready.
I also in the future may try AR leaching on some catalytic converters in the future. I'm not just looking to cash out a lot and then move on. I'm fascinated by the process on a molecular level it is wonderful to know these things and other things as well. My mind often ponders things that the average mind dose not. You can never know to much.
Note, I started the fingers a hour befor this post in hcl and added no peroxide. I already have lots of foils off the pcb the floating around. I'm just gunna let it go and add nothing else unless I see a reduction In the reaction.

 

[myfalconry76]

please be safe, catalytic converters contain asbestos. and dont forget about the dirt on the highways, its harder to carry but easier to find

I think I'm going to stick around reading and recovering gold of of different things for the next year or so. I got five computershops that are saving scrap for me. Plus all the stuff I got ready.
I also in the future may try AR leaching on some catalytic converters in the future. I'm not just looking to cash out a lot and then move on. I'm fascinated by the process on a molecular level it is wonderful to know these things and other things as well. My mind often ponders things that the average mind dose not. You can never know to much.
Note, I started the fingers a hour befor this post in hcl and added no peroxide. I already have lots of foils off the pcb the floating around. I'm just gunna let it go and add nothing else unless I see a reduction In the reaction.

I will!
I heard that dirt on the highways contain platinum, so I guess that it may also contain asbestos as well. I wonder if they ever done a study on that yet? You could get cancer riding down the highway with your window down. Its not refining that scares me it's the lives we lead that really worry me!!!

 

[g_axelsson]

If you only are in this for the money then I would recommend you to just do the recovery step to foils and then melt. The end product should be at least 90-95% pure and can be sold as is.

If you want to go on and refine, you don't need aqua regia. Foils can be dissolved with HCl and bleach. A good alternative if you don't have easy access to nitric acid.

Göran

 

[myfalconry76]

If you only are in this for the money then I would recommend you to just do the recovery step to foils and then melt. The end product should be at least 90-95% pure and can be sold as is.

If you want to go on and refine, you don't need aqua regia. Foils can be dissolved with HCl and bleach. A good alternative if you don't have easy access to nitric acid.

Göran

I do like money, but when it comes to silver gold and other pm. I don't really have a desire to sell it, I would be happy with a quart mason jar full of foils sitting on the mantle waiting for a rainy day.

Question, if you disolve gold in AP solution could you add copper oxide to it instead of copper to cement it back? Looking into the future!

 

[jason_recliner]

The idea is to NOT dissolve gold in AP. AP, or "copper II chloride" leach, is intended to dissolve copper and other more reactive metals.
If you happen to dissolve some gold by adding too much peroxide, it will not stay in solution for long. The presence of existing copper metal will force gold back out of solution. However this is still not advisable, as it can 'cement' in some hard to reach places you least expect.

Just a dash of H2O2, a capful, if you must use any. "None" is also fine.
Then a whole lot of time.

 

[Geo]

Foils are never "clean". As a thank you of sorts for all the knowledge I have acquired from the forum, I held a guessing contest with prizes. Members were guessing on the weight of the foils and weight of the total refined gold in a 500mL beaker full of "clean" foils. It was great fun, I may have to do it again. http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=19910&hilit=Geo%27s+guessing+contest

 

[g_axelsson]

Question, if you disolve gold in AP solution could you add copper oxide to it instead of copper to cement it back?

No!

Göran

 

[myfalconry76]

I tried to filter off my foils today 3 times and after about 5 minutes the filter would break and my gold would fall through.
The method I've chosen for recovery is just hcl and nothing else. Just letting it work on its own in a old coffee pot sitting on it's warmer plate after I remove the top part of the coffee maker leaving just the hot plate!
After three attempts at filtering and busting through the filter and the gold falling back into the solution, I have came to the conclusion that my error is trying to filter gold from hot hcl causing it to disolve the filter enough to break through. So guess I would be correct in the assumption of letting the solution cool befor filtering!
Just wanted to confirm this was the reason for the filter failure and not the filter it's self?
I searched the forum for filter types and uses and I couldn't find much. Thank you in advance!!!

 

[kernels]

Yep, let it cool. You can also dilute the HCl a bit before filtering. Also use 2 or 3 filters at a time, not just a single one!

 

[Phishin_ca]

I tried to filter off my foils today 3 times and after about 5 minutes the filter would break and my gold would fall through.
The method I've chosen for recovery is just hcl and nothing else. Just letting it work on its own in a old coffee pot sitting on it's warmer plate after I remove the top part of the coffee maker leaving just the hot plate!
After three attempts at filtering and busting through the filter and the gold falling back into the solution, I have came to the conclusion that my error is trying to filter gold from hot hcl causing it to disolve the filter enough to break through. So guess I would be correct in the assumption of letting the solution cool befor filtering!
Just wanted to confirm this was the reason for the filter failure and not the filter it's self?
I searched the forum for filter types and uses and I couldn't find much. Thank you in advance!!!

How large is this test batch? Do you have some pictures? You could decant the AP and then follow with a few fresh HCl rinses in the same container. I believe I once read that you can ensure all of the copper is driven of by testing with a drop of ammonia.

 

[Geo]

Filter the foils after the solution has cooled.

 

[myfalconry76]

Filter the foils after the solution has cooled.

This is what have done, it worked the 4th time. It must have been the hcl being to hot. It did not happen with coed solution. But it did get me fired up on seeing what I can disolve in hot hcl.