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Oneal58:

The Stump Remover that you have pictured is the incorrect item.

The ONLY place that I have found that sells Stump Out by Bonide is at Home Depot. It is on the shelf with pesticides and other lawn chemicals.

It comes in a one pound white plastic container with a purple lid. Ask the front desk to guide you to it.

The lable says, "Stump Out" by Bonide.

You can see a picture of the container and label in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/user/sreetips?feature=mhee#p/a/u/0/HNq3Tp99XOE

I have not found it sold anywhere else (but it is probably sold at other stores).

I have not checked walmart - if anyone finds it someplace else, then please let me know.

kadriver
 
"Thanks Phil, where are you finding the correct Stump Out?"

Home Depot... but try a beer or wine supplies store near you. I found good grade SMB for less than $4.00 per pound @ one close to me.

Phil
 
The solution was filtered to remove solids and precipitated lead sulfate. The lead sulfate was precipitated out of the auric chloride (AuCl) solution when I added drops of sulfuric acid just prior to filtering.

The settled liquid was carefully poured into the buchner funnel under vacuum. I poured all the clear liquid in first, then poured in the mud and filtered it last.

I rinsed the filter and none of the mud appears to have made it into the filtered AuCl in the flask.

If it did, then I would have to refilter several times through the same filter paper until the solution was crystal clear.

This is why I have two filter flasks, so I can move the funnel from one flask to the other to refilter the liquid over and over through the same filter paper.

Goldsilverpro taught me this technique and it works quite well.

The filtered solution appears clear, but it has a green color.

I have had AuCl solutions that were green in the past.

I will just drop the gold as usual using Stump Out (sodium metabisulfite) made by Bonide.

I will post move photos as I get the time to prceeed with this batch.

Thanks for looking, more to follow...

kadriver
 

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Oneal,
Firebrick can be used to make a furnace, or to hold a melting dish.
Note: there are several kinds of firebrick, two types I will mention now,

1. The baked clay type (could come in several colors red white Etc.) used in-home fireplaces (harder and absorb heat and hold heat easily).

2. Then there are very porous fire bricks used as insulation in boilers, furnaces and so on, these are very porous like pumice (volcanic rock full of tiny air bubbles which act as insulator do not absorb or hold heat easily), these bricks (usually white) are easily carved or sawed with hand tools like knife saw Etc.,

Both of these types of bricks have uses, but also when using them to build furnace or small dish furnace you will need to choose the right one for the job intended here for your purpose the second type would serve the purpose.

If you have a couple of dollars, Laser Steve has made some excellent little melting furnaces from two of the second type of fire bricks, carving out the place for melting dish (with space under dish so propane or Mapp gas torch can heat with flame under dish and also keeps the dish from having intimate contact with brick so brick will not act as heat sink and take all your fuel and flame to heat brick, this helps the heat to do its work on metals inside the dish, Laser Steve sold these for about the same price you could buy the bricks for (but he done the work of carving them just for you) It's a great buy from a great guy, while your there maybe order a couple of melting dishes or other supplies you may need,

I miss Steve being on the forum like he used to be we all learn so much from him, (that dirty word (work) has kept him from here as often).


As far as using a ceramic dish or pot for a melting dish (forget that idea) unless you had a furnace that you could control the temperature (raising and lowering at will) the dish would break, also think even then the glaze is like flux, or flux and metal flux slag can act like glaze, the clay in dish used may absorb your metals or they may chemically react with your metals in the melt.

The melting dishes or crucibles we use for melting our values, clay mixes with properties needed not to give you the troubles mentioned, actually these dishes and crucibles are cheap especially if you consider how they are made and the value you can have in the melts we do here.
Incinerations of dirty materials you could use stainless steel, or the white corning ware or vision ware dish,

Not recommended, you can even melt in a wood block (I have used pine and oak) thick so as not to burn through the wood, I have done this with gold and dirty copper metals (the charcoal formed also helps to reduce the copper to metals so heat does not oxidize it).
I have also used a fire brick to melt metal in (dish shape carved in it, or used a stack of sheetrock blocks (it would absorb silver in melt into sulfates so silver is lost into sheet rock), although I may used these for very dirty melts, I have also made some of my own melting dishes from various clays and refractory, I am not recommending any of these methods in this paragraph as they have there own sets of problems, and each has a chemistry involved when using them in the melt, and if you do not understand that you can be losing value by using these.

Gold on glass and ceramics, is a source of gold, using HCl/Bleach to remove gold from them, the gold looks like more on the dish than is actually there, but is easily removed and recovered, I would not do just a couple of dishes, as unless you break the dishes the container or bucket used to leach the gold, and amount of acid you need to soak the dish in is large (plastic dish pan, large glass bowl, or plastic 5 gallon bucket), and you do not want to use a lot of acid for very little gold to dissolve in it (save up a pile of dishes before stripping them).


Torches: with acetylene / oxygen set you have a choice of tip sizes and types, as well as fuel/oxygen settings, using these for there purpose needed is important (whether heating welding melting and so on, also what part of the flame and distance to work is also important in the job your doing.
 
Boy, the things you can learn here. Thanks Everyone, Butcher I am going to pick me up one of those firebrick furnaces from Steve. And a few more things I need also, as you said, great prices. By the time I drive 30 miles to town to buy something, it will cost me less than I can pick it up on Steve's Site. Sounds as though you can save a good amount of fuel with the furnace also.
I am currently going back through Hoke's Book page by page by page. Doing the test, following her line by line and doing as she says. This time I am taking notes but I believe my notes are going to end up being larger than her entire book? I have already filled up 2 notebooks, no kidding and am on my 3rd. I guess it's because as I get and understand what she says, I put things in my own words (staying with my train of thought) which always ends up being longer than her's?
Thanks to Everyone, I am going to finish up Hoke's again before I start back up. I
I am not going anywhere, I will be here, just observing more. When I ask questions again, hopefully they will not be something I should already know out of Hoke's Book. Saves everyone a lot of typing and time, which gets more valueable day by day.
Thanks Everyone,
P.S.
Kadriver, thank you for taking the time to do what you are doing!
Oneal58
 
Oneal,
Very wise choice, (I am glad your light is coming on), reading Hokes book and doing the experiments will give you an insight you’re missing now.

As far as note book I have several note books written, problem is as you learn these books need rewritten (may I suggest a notebook with hole punched paper in binder, so pages can be removed, rewritten, rearranged. added later), and another problem is sometime there seems a feller does not have the time to add all of the useful info to his notebook from all of the information everybody share here on the forum, also my collection of data (paperwork) is filling up my living room, if this keeps up they will have me on a TV show (the data hoarder).
 
Butcher, I really get it. 8) I have even started leaving the back of each page blank now so I can go back and add information later. But the binder idea is a great one, I am just a little too far along to start that now with where I am at. I will start after I fill this 3rd notebook up I am on now. Then that's the way I will go. It's a shame I didn't get this information a week or so ago. But I do have the empty back page that will help some when I run across variations to the text.

I stole my wifes turkey baster, didn't even know she had one. It works great! No more filtering for me unless it is a have to. It works like a charm!
Question1- Will the hard plastic White Chlorox Jugs hold up to the nitric and hydrochloric, I don't think it would the sulphuric from the way it burned through the toilet tissue plug earlier? If they will work what's the (best method) to neutralize the chlorine that is very hard to get completely out of these jugs? Seems almost impossible to wash completely out of the jugs with plan water, still smell after 5 or 6 hard shaking washing's? Sodium Bisulfite seems to be the answer, but how much to a gallon jug already washed with water several times?
Question 2- I have plenty of 1 quart glass canning jars. But just a few of the quart sizes. These have the porcelain inserts with the zinc tops. If they have the porcelain/glass inserts in the tops of the lids will they be OK to store acids in?
Question 3- Which acid will I end up with the most volume of. I have 1 large crock with a lid I would like to use for it. It is glazed inside and outside. So far, it would seem I will end up with the most diluted/neutralized Nitric Acid. Is this correct? I hope not to let any of the acids build up and get too far ahead of me? I am just thinking that I will save the Nitric up and recover what (PM's) that's in there after dropping the silver. But those recoveries will come a little later, after more experience and knowledge.
Thanks Butcher,
Oneal
 
The solutions saved, consider what they are and choose appropriate container.
I will NOT normally save solutions that are NOT loaded with metals (these metal salt solutions I will save in plastic jugs (old HCl jugs, sulfuric jugs, old Clorox jugs,) or plastic 5 gallon drums (chemicals came in) glass gallon jugs like apple juice jugs with finger hole, change metal lid to plastic. basically all my lids or covers are plastic I save old food jars or pickle jars, and plastic lids. Trying to use the jug the acid came in that made this salt solution as much as possible.

Some solutions like nitric the storage vessel may need to breath somewhat (as temperature changes or acids decompose from light or time) point here some acids like nitric you may need a lid that allows some pressure to release (most lids will normally) corks (or whittled wood plug) wrapped in Teflon tape can also be used if not permanent.

Copper nitrate or copper chloride solution can also be stored in old HCl jug.

If your concerned about the small amount of bleach after washing out you old bleach jug, you could pour in a tiny amount dilute ammonia and wash out the ammonium chloride.
or just let sit in sun open to air to dry (next summer :lol: ), personally I would not worry about the residue in a gallon of spent solutions.

You will find (like you did with your sulfuric cell washes that powders will settle out of spent solutions after they sit for a long period of time), I usually save these powders as they may contain traces of values.

Treat solutions for waste as needed, save for reuse as needed,

I do not know if this helped with your question.

Try and find the syringe bulb in the picture above, that and pipettes I have found them at drug store, but you could order them also (not sure where), they will work better than the turkey baster, fluids won't drip back into solution as easily (tips are different) and bulbs will hold up better to solutions we use. (I do not spend much money on lab ware, using mostly kitchenware or jars, but a couple of dollars on these suction tools are worth it to me).
 
butcher said:
Try and find the syringe bulb in the picture above, that and pipettes I have found them at drug store, but you could order them also (not sure where), they will work better than the turkey baster, fluids won't drip back into solution as easily (tips are different) and bulbs will hold up better to solutions we use.
Yep! A turkey baster is pretty much worthless for lab work.
I used to use irrigation syringes, purchased from medical supply houses. They're perfect for that little shot of water that is often needed. They're not expensive and have a terrific lifespan, even used around acids. I do not recommend they be used to dispense acid, however.

Harold
 
Hello Harold,
I have used the asepto bulb syringe, and pipette (pictured above), to siphon, transfer, dispense acids, and other solutions, including waste solutions, (except fresh nitric acid), without problems, one will last almost a year before bulb starts to determinate (then its purpose is waste transfer tool), I will even transfer, or siphon nitrate salt solutions (with some free nitric), and gold chloride solutions from aqua regia, many times these solutions are boiling hot also. Keeping the bulb from acid as much as possible, and rinsing bulb with spray bottle after use extends its life, I do not know what plastic these bulbs are made from but they hold up very well. A Very handy tool.
 
Thanks Butcher, Harold. I have a bag of pippets I bought a while back. They are thin plastic, I don't expect to get too much out of them before there shot. I got to go to town today. I am going to try and find one of those asepto syringes. I found a medical supply house and am going to check out what they have.
Question1- I have large stainless steel funnels and pans and pots by the dozens. My oldest sister works with the school system here. She takes care of getting the food for the cafeterias in the schools in this district. So, I get all the used cooking oil to burn in my diesel truck. I get all the throw away stainless steel when it gets damaged a little, large cans that the food comes in for the children and such things as that. I have read that using Stainless Steel will cause you to pick up trace amounts of other metals (nickel, possibly tin) if used while processing. But for storage, how about that? All these large pots, 3-5 gallon pots have loose fitting lids, the lids just sit on top the pots?
Question 2- One last question, how about cold temperatures. Should I always keep the stored acids above freezing?
Thanks Fellows,
Oneal
 
Stainless steel should not be used to store you solutions.

Glass, and appropriate plastic container can be used for storage of used solutions.
Acids glass will be usually better,(if I buy an some types of acids in plastic jugs (these jugs are usually not suited for long term storage) I will move to glass containers), venting of acids must also be considered in different environments or concentrations.
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=storage+of+cemicals+and+used+solution%27s&rlz=1R2RNQN_enUS457&psj=1&oq=storage+of+cemicals+and+used+solution%27s&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2407l38907l0l43422l41l41l0l24l0l0l953l12672l5-5.12l17l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=497a0dbec56255c7&biw=590&bih=328

Temperature can be very important to storage, usually cold temperatures are not a problem for acids or used solutions (except in extreme cold environments), heat on the other hand can deteriorate acids, as well as light, exposure to air, or other chemicals.
Acids can also build pressure in containers from formed gases (from decomposition) from heat light Etc. depending on acid type, (venting must be considered).

Study the acids you use, understand how to use, store, handle, safety precautions, their properties and reactions to metals, and so on.


Acids can act different on metals depending on concentration, some types of concentrated metals will passivate some types of metals, but this same acid diluted will attack that metal (so the same metal container you may have bought the acid in may not work to store the dilute acid in)

Generally you can store a metal salt solution (metal + acid = salt solution of that metal) in the container the acid came in.
But this is not always true, say I bought concentrated nitric in stainless steel container, and made it dilute or into copper nitrate, I could not store that in the stainless container.

These metals salt solutions are generally less trouble to store, but they are still very corrosive and can still put off acidic fumes that can corrode your materials in your shop or storage environment.

Labeling what you have stored is a must (handy MSDS should) be kept. Label should last when bottle sits for long time.

Location of storage is also a concern, away from children or animals, from being broken exposure to heat, light, other chemicals, or air, proper containers (for length of storage or conditions of use.

Well someone could write a whole book or many books on this one subject, and I am no author.
 
Thanks Butcher,
Well, I can see right now I have some changes to make. I got my used, new, diluted with water acids Etc;, stored in the same cabinets. Though they are in different areas of the Cabinets and a few feet apart this is not going to work and will be seperated tonight. What if the sulfuric acid (diluted 2/3rd's by water) from my cell run that I have stored in the end cabinet had a container failure. Then just by chance I had another acid that had a leak in the container. So, (water to acid) which could turn into a dangerous situation very quickly! I am going to have to build sealed partitions in the cabinets to be sure I keep 1 particular acid in that area and if a spill occurs this acid cannot get to the other acids. I am also going to go back and date each used acid, why it is in the cabinet and how it was used, previously. I have got some changes to make to the way I am storing my acids. With my memory, or lack of it, this is a must for me!
I will take your advice and study the characteristics (acids) when full strength, diluted, hot, cold, containers, Etc;,. Put the MSDS Sheets on the front of the cabinets for quick reference, if needed. I want to stay safe and I realize knowing what I am dealing with is the only way to do this.
As always, thanks Butcher for the very important insights that you give me. As I said before, you just can't buy this type of information.
I told you all I hated to see anything wasted. The cans I get from my sister I make projects out of. I just finished this one last week for the parade I went to Sat.. It was for a Wizard of Oz Float, I made it for a friend. I know it has nothing to do with refining gold but recycling (which we all do) in refinning is a very big subject. Take a look at my wifes new boyfriend below Butcher. Of course she is a Wizard of Oz Collector. I also make him in a 6 foot tall version. I have friends lined up wanting one though. I just don't have much time to work on any of my other projects now.
Thanks so much Butcher!
Oneal

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Hello:

I had to filter the AuCl because there was some solids still in the solution.

I used two flasks and tranfered the funnel and used the same filter paper about 5 times to get all the solid out that I could.

The solution was a little clearer, but it still had some solids.

I then transfered the green colored AuCl to a tall 1000 ml beaker in preparation for dropping the gold with Stump Out.
 

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I heated the liquid to get it to settle quickly - this worked very well and it settled in about 10 minutes.

Then I filtered the clear liquid - you can see that there was still some suspended gold in the solution and it got trapped in the filter paper as I poured it in.

I kept washing the precipitated gold until the wash was clear, each time I poured the wash liquid through the filter - washing the gold trapped in the filter paper with the water used to rinse the gold powder in the beaker.
 

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